Gardai proposals to ban firearms

bpb101

UPDATE READ: http://www.sportscoalition.org/firearms-review-forthcoming-rte-prime-time-programme/


Sports collision tells everybody to tweet and email and what not during prime time

BattleCorp

bpb101 wrote: »

UPDATE READ: http://www.sportscoalition.org/firearms-review-forthcoming-rte-prime-time-programme/


Sports collision tells everybody to tweet and email and what not during prime time

I'll be honest and say I'm a fan of the Sports Coalition but I'm not impressed with some of the suggestions to email the politicians with.

Some of the suggestions regarding gun thefts are badly worded. I wouldn't dream of putting some of them down on paper. They are more harmful than helpful.

meathstevie

Deaf git wrote: »

It goes deeper than resourcing AGS to deal with the scum that abound in our society. I'm tired of picking up the local paper to read -

'Joe Bloggs has been sentenced to 6 months for burglary. Mr Bloggs asked for clemency due to his addictions. Mr. Bloggs has 39 previous convictions. Mr Bloggs requested 5 other offences be taken into consideration.'

This type of report tells me the Gardai did their job on 39 previous occasions, it also tells me our courts and prison system didn't do theirs - someone with 39 convictions is clearly beyond rehabilitation and society needs to be protected from the Bloggs by incarcerating said Bloggs for a very long time.

AGS need reformation at root & branch level also, but ffs if a garda catches a criminal he shouldn't see the guy back out and engaged in crime within a few weeks or months. It has to blunt any enthusiasm for doing the job.

No need telling me, been there, done that and bought the t-shirt yadeyadeyade.....

Crime statistics and creating piles of duplicating and triplicating paperwork are far more important that actually doing something out there and prosecutors only want open and shut cases without room for contest just in case they lose one and conviction rates drop.

Look at the yoke in Limerick for heavens sake. Caught red-handed in possession of an unlicensed and prohibited Mac 10, a weapon that has no other purpose or use than shooting at people, the tariff a suspended sentence ?

Good and risky enough work by the Gardai but unfortunately negated in court.

The important thing though is that the right type of policing will disrupt organised crime. It's not because courts are too lenient at times that Gardai can not continue gathering intelligence, carry out stops and searches, arrest and charge organised crime suspects for even the most minor of offences etc etc..basically the way in which some Limerick and Dublin gangs have been lawfully hounded and made miserable.

It just needs a government with the will and deaf ears for the garanteed soon to follow whinging to back and resource that sort of zero tolerance strategy which will be confrontational and could lead to the odd riot in certain estates and so on, but you know what. That's what shields, helmets, ppe and batons are for.

Cass

That document is the most badly written and harmful thing i've read yet.

• It's the same 2 or 3 points, rewritten in different formats, and repeated.
• It goes from mud slinging to insults and all the time on the verge of defamation/slander.
• The point about stolen guns being the fault of poor Garda policies is crap. If a gun is stolen then it's the scumbag that done it, not AGS. They cannot guard every firearm owners home and the onus is on us to have the necessary security.
• The issue of criminal targeting areas where Garda stations have been closed is pure speculation unless you have stats to back it up. You don't want to sound like Superintendent Healy spouting made up and exaggerated facts.
• Same with guns in drug shipments and the number of illegal guns. No one has numbers bar "best guess" so stop trying to pick a number.

By all means continue in your e-mail and contact campaign but i beg anyone still engaging in this to not stoop to insults, name calling, and any abusive/derogatory comments.

Use your own thoughts, be polite, and level headed. Avoid speculation, guessing and making assumptions. You will only serve to isolate and alienate any good will or progress we've made if you resort to using any of the points above and sending them to the very people we need to listen to us. Concentrate on points you can back up with fact

1. 150 years of shooting history. That's more than the GAA or any other sport.
2. The problems with the facts issued by AGS.
   • Blank firers, crossbows, bolt guns all classed as firearms
   • Stolen guns being linked to legal guns even though they cannot prove it (assuming because they cannot find them)
   • 180,000 firearms licenses with approx. 110,000 people. The majority with one unrestricted firearm and including air rifles that are license free in every other country.
   • People with multiple licenses, not just one. So the 110,000 figure may be less.
   • Etc.
3. Public safety not being an issue with no mass shootings, or any of the major firearm related crimes as depicted in other countries
4. New laws unneeded, just funding to allow AGS to enforce the ones already in place
5. The errors by Minister Fitzgerald. Such as:
   • A reinstatement has already been carried out
   • No compensation needed and her lack of understanding about ownership to possession
   • No figures after 4 months of asking yet figures reported in the media with AGS being the source
6. The long and spotless safety record of shooting (target stuff as well as fieldsports)
7. The vast amount of national and international medals and awards won
8. No funding and it's all done at our own cost

I'm sure there are more and there is no need to make it a proposal length message/email. Short and to the point.

bmm

Paul Reynolds reports earlier today was laughable. Is Paul still working for RTE or has he taken a job as a spin-doctor for the Gardai. Its ridiculous how biased his reporting is!

catastrophy

Cass wrote: »

That document is the most badly written and harmful thing i've read yet.

Agreed. I don't know the author nor have I dealt with the organisation represented but the standard portrayed is poor at best.

turismo2142

I'd suggest everyone here who has a view on our criminal justice system and our sentencing standards take the time to sit through a few days of sentencing in their local Circuit Criminal Court and listen to what goes on rather than forming a view through articles written by some media hack.

It never ceases to amaze me how in almost the same breath people give out yards about how the media serve up partisan and biased agendas as news articles (such as that to which this post is effectively dedicated) and then quote other nuggets of information sourced through the media in other areas of interest (such as crime and our criminal Justice system) and make them the foundations of their opinions.

Question everything you read and you think you know in life and you'll realise how little you really know.

Grizzly 45

Folks,
we all know the nargc sports Colaton emails.Suggest we direct our concerns in an email to them about some of the more over the top comments presented in their press release as being potentially harmful than helpful?

With all the best will in the world I just can't see anything coming out of a prime time programme as doing us anything good.Leopards don't change their spots,and unless we have one of our people sitting in on the production team,what is promised and actually aired and edied or lands on the cutting floor on TV are universes apart.

kowloon

meathstevie wrote: »

Look at the yoke in Limerick for heavens sake. Caught red-handed in possession of an unlicensed and prohibited Mac 10, a weapon that has no other purpose or use than shooting at people, the tariff a suspended sentence ?

Seriously?:eek: That one seems to have passed me by.

Melodeon

kowloon wrote: »

Seriously?:eek: That one seems to have passed me by.

That'll be this one:
Mum who stored UZI at Limerick home avoids jail term
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local-news/mum-who-stored-uzi-at-limerick-home-avoids-jail-term-1-6582481

Cass

turismo2142 wrote: »

I'd suggest everyone here who has a view on our criminal justice system and our sentencing standards take the time to sit through a few days of sentencing in their local Circuit Criminal Court and listen to what goes on rather than forming a view through articles written by some media hack.

It wasn't the Circuit court, but rather the district court, but last year i attended to support a friend that had to attend court for mortgage arrears.

During the time waiting the amount of people up on charges with serious and numerous previous charges that got probation, and suspended sentences was mad. NOw i don't want to derail this thread, nor do i want to be found guilty of technical contempt by being overly critical of a Justices sentencing, but one chap had 57 previous convictions in the preceding few years and was once again given a suspended sentence. He left laughing.

I thought to myself that i need not have been nervous, all these years, about breaking even a minor law as i'd probably get a playstation 4 and sent home to think about what i'd done.

Grizzly 45

[quote="bpb101;94432038"

ikea does have some great solutions
Yeah ikea Sweden...If you think Irish jails sre holiday camps You should see Swedish and Dutch jails.Places are better than our five star hotels. ..Get your better half in as well for conjugal rights as well . Best medical care etc..

So what do we want?Holding tanks for people or do we want to reform people to be fit members of society?Either costs money.

turismo2142

It depends upon the prison in Ireland to be honest.

Midlands is actually ok. Not a holiday camp by any means. Cork prison is horrible. The loss of liberty is supposed the punishment and not inflicting awful conditions is it not?

FYI, someone with 50 previous convictions may have had same arise from far fewer events. If you're out pissed on a Saturday night and get lippy with a Garda and resist arrest you could pick up S.4, s.6, s. 8, s. 9 of the Criminal Justice public Order Act plus s.2 of the non fatal offences against the person act from one 60 second interaction.

gardaí tend to load up charges on summonses or charge sheets which are technically different but are in reality the same. Statistics are then very much skewed.

But enough thread hijacking from me for now...although I suppose Garda stats being massaged is not completely off topic :-p

bravestar

turismo2142 wrote: »

It depends upon the prison in Ireland to be honest.

Midlands is actually ok. Not a holiday camp by any means. Cork prison is horrible. The loss of liberty is supposed the punishment and not inflicting awful conditions is it not?

FYI, someone with 50 previous convictions may have had same arise from far fewer events. If you're out pissed on a Saturday night and get lippy with a Garda and resist arrest you could pick up S.4, s.6, s. 8, s. 9 of the Criminal Justice public Order Act plus s.2 of the non fatal offences against the person act from one 60 second interaction.

gardaí tend to load up charges on summonses or charge sheets which are technically different but are in reality the same. Statistics are then very much skewed.

But enough thread hijacking from me for now...although I suppose Garda stats being massaged is not completely off topic :-p

You will not get sec 4/6/8/9 POA and sec 2 assault all together. For example sec 4 relates to being intoxicated to such an extent as to be a danger to yourself, sec 8 relates to a direction given by a member of AGS . You cannot direct someone who is so drunk that they are a danger to themself to do anything as they are too pissed to do so... While he law allows for it, reality is different. I wont get into the rest.

Look, I'm all for telling it like it is but let's not go exaggerating things, it weakens any point trying to be made.

turismo2142

Really,

I know exactly what those sections allow. I've seen charge sheets loaded up with them in the past. Believe me. I'm quite familiar with what I'm talking about.

Cass

turismo2142 wrote: »

But enough thread hijacking from me for now...

You are not on your own lad, i'm as guilty as anyone, but you raise a good point.

This thread has a very specific purpose and while a slight detour from the main theme will happen we really do need to keep this thread as firmly on topic as possible.

bravestar

turismo2142 wrote: »

Really,

I know exactly what those sections allow. I've seen charge sheets loaded up with them in the past. Believe me. I'm quite familiar with what I'm talking about.

As am I and I said, the law allows for it. That doesnt mean that any solicitor worth his salt wouldn't have half of it struck out. Without the need to have any chat with the mule beforehand.

Judge, my client was absolutely bannanas, falling out in front of traffic and covered in his own puke, when the guard arrived he directed him to go home under sec 8 POA. he is willing to take a bow on the sec 4 but couldn't physically get himself home due to his intoxication. Application to strike out the sec 8.

hexosan

turismo2142 wrote: »

It depends upon the prison in Ireland to be honest.

Midlands is actually ok. Not a holiday camp by any means. Cork prison is horrible. The loss of liberty is supposed the punishment and not inflicting awful conditions is it not?

FYI, someone with 50 previous convictions may have had same arise from far fewer events. If you're out pissed on a Saturday night and get lippy with a Garda and resist arrest you could pick up S.4, s.6, s. 8, s. 9 of the Criminal Justice public Order Act plus s.2 of the non fatal offences against the person act from one 60 second interaction.

gardaí tend to load up charges on summonses or charge sheets which are technically different but are in reality the same. Statistics are then very much skewed.

But enough thread hijacking from me for now...although I suppose Garda stats being massaged is not completely off topic :-p

So the poor unfortunate with 50 convictions who got loaded up with 5 charges obviously had 10 separate interactions with Gardaí so that hardly makes them an unfortunate.

Cass

Right lads and ladies.

We need to get back on topic, concentrate on the issue at hand, and not the judiciary, it's faults, etc.

turismo2142

Yes cass, agreed.


The value of the Garda pistol club stating what they said in such blunt and completely unapologetic terms really cannot be overstated. That level of criticism is nearly unprecedented and it shows the opinions of the real Garda ballistics experts which can be quoted with impunity by our brethren from now on.

What I'm wondering is does anyone know any of them? They're kindred spirits surely?

bravestar

Lads just to be clear, it's the IPA pistol club, international police association. There is no garda pistol club.

Sparks

bravestar wrote: »

Lads just to be clear, it's the IPA pistol club, international police association. There is no garda pistol club.

Their clay pigeon club is allowed call themselves the Garda Clay Pigeon Club and hold an annual Garda Clay Pigeon Shooting Championships but the pistol club isn't?

Seems a bit... inconsistent. Or did the Indo just take huge liberties when describing the club?

SVI40

Sparks wrote: »

Their clay pigeon club is allowed call themselves the Garda Clay Pigeon Club and hold an annual Garda Clay Pigeon Shooting Championships but the pistol club isn't?

Seems a bit... inconsistent. Or did the Indo just take huge liberties when describing the club?

I believe they must get permission to use "Garda" for any club or association they form.

Sparks

SVI40 wrote: »

I believe they must get permission to use "Garda" for any club or association they form.

Well that's the norm for that kind of thing. I'm more wondering - why would the clay pigeon lads get it and not the pistol lads? Or is it that they never wanted to call themselves the Garda pistol club and the Indo just called them that because Lazy Reporting?

bravestar

Sparks wrote: »

Their clay pigeon club is allowed call themselves the Garda Clay Pigeon Club and hold an annual Garda Clay Pigeon Shooting Championships but the pistol club isn't?

Seems a bit... inconsistent. Or did the Indo just take huge liberties when describing the club?

You must be a member of the IPA and a serving/retired or reserve garda to join the IPA pistol club. Your not automatically a member of the IPA just because you are a Garda.

Also an ex German police officer for instance, who is a member of their respective IPA could join the pistol club here if they had moved here after they retired as long as they remained a member of the IPA.

The IPA pistol club is not exclusively for garda where's as the garda clay club, I believe, is.

Note: I have no interest in clay shooting.

meathstevie

IPA are the folks that run the police and fire games aren't they ? Organisation with some serious international standing I believe.

homerhop

IPA are a sound bunch of lads too. Two fold sickener for some of them lads, having to deal with management on a day to day basis as well as putting up with their BS when it comes to their pastime.

turismo2142

I have to hand it to them though. In a hierarchy such as the Gardaí, it takes a fair amount of balls to come out and very bluntly rubbish senior AGS policy on the whole issue. Fair play.

knockon

bravestar wrote: »

Lads just to be clear, it's the IPA pistol club, international police association. There is no garda pistol club.

I know but from our point of view this sounds best "Garda pistol club criticises gun-ban attempts" rather than "IPA pistol club criticises gun-ban attempts". I know its words but no harm in us using what the other side is great at...throwing loads of cow dung and seeing what sticks.

For Willie Brennan to come out like that is absolute gold for us.

Seeing that Noirin had all the Supers in for a meeting a few days ago I am led to believe she is cracking the whip big time. Maybe the tide is turning?

turismo2142

She had them in on this issue?

Was this before or after Garda Spokesperson Paul Reynolds released his latest press release a couple of days ago?