Zwarte Piet

bodice ripper

denhaagenite wrote: »

Ik was in Den Haag. Ik ben nu in Eindhoven. Ik zal morgen naar Maastricht en volgende week, Amsterdam. Helaas pindakaas.

Goed zo, the joys of a small country and a spectacular transport system.

biko

denhaagenite wrote: »

Ik was in Den Haag. Ik ben nu in Eindhoven. Ik zal morgen naar Maastricht en volgende week, Amsterdam. Helaas pindakaas.

Vrolijk kerstfeest

bodice ripper

denhaagenite wrote: »

Does dancing really badly to Bhangra music under the influence count?

Dancing badly under the influence is a proud Irish tradition.

denhaagenite

simonw wrote: »

Geert Wilders will be delighted to hear you say that

I think he's probably more delighted that he is the stick that beats a racist tar over the whole of the Netherlands by other countries. He's the worlds very own Godwins Law against NL.

simonw

biko wrote: »

Not really. It's just the blackface, red lips and ear rings.
The dress has nothing "black" about it at all.

Yeah sorry, i meant "dressed up", not literally the clothes he wears

wexie

bodice ripper wrote: »

Dancing badly under the influence is a proud Irish tradition.

is that dancing badly, or badly under the influence, or both?
probably both I guess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrOVH-bLrq8

**disclaimer : not actually Irish, or racist

simonw

denhaagenite wrote: »

I think he's probably more delighted that he is the stick that beats a racist tar over the whole of the Netherlands by other countries. He's the worlds very own Godwins Law against NL.

My experience of Holland is that it's exactly as racist as anywhere else in europe.

wexie

simonw wrote: »

My experience of Holland is that it's exactly as racist as anywhere else in europe.

the way I see it is that Holland is incredibly tolerant, not because they're so tolerant but because they're terrified of being seen as anything other than tolerant.

It's all 'voor het oog van het kerkvolk' but that's just my experience which mostly based on smalltown Holland

denhaagenite

simonw wrote: »

My experience of Holland is that it's exactly as racist as anywhere else in europe.

Holland is two provinces

bodice ripper

simonw wrote: »

My experience of Holland is that it's exactly as racist as anywhere else in europe.

I would say that the Dutch seem more inclined to voice it, in my experience, than the Irish. But I don't think that's an indication of being more racist, just more open with opinions generally.

wexie

denhaagenite wrote: »

Holland is two provinces

Ah let's not get into symantics

for those who haven't seen it, this is a very good explanation and most entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc

denhaagenite

wexie wrote: »

Ah let's not get into symantics

I'm just outlining that it's all very well for the rest of the world to voice their opinions (when they can't even really place where they're talking about) but living in Holland or in any other part of the Netherlands is far more diverse an environment than living in Ireland and some other countries in Europe. If it was really as racist as everyone makes out why don't we have the same issues as, for example, France does? It should really be carnage here. There's 3 different races on my street, we should all be posting dogs**t through eachother's letterboxes.

wexie

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm just outlining that it's all very well for the rest of the world to voice their opinions but living in Holland or in any other part of the Netherlands is far more diverse an environment than living in Ireland and some other countries in Europe. If it was really as racist as everyone makes out why don't we have the same issues as, for example, France does? It should really be carnage here. There's 3 different races on my street, we should all be posting dogs**t through eachother's letterboxes.

very true in many ways, I wonder though how long that's going to last.
I've never been known to be overly optimistic though.

But you're right, certainly an issue like Zwarte Piet may well have caused far bigger issues in many other countries.

Donkey Oaty

At least Piet is not a violent psychopath like his German counterpart, Knecht Ruprecht.

simonw

denhaagenite wrote: »

I'm just outlining that it's all very well for the rest of the world to voice their opinions (when they can't even really place where they're talking about) but living in Holland or in any other part of the Netherlands is far more diverse an environment than living in Ireland and some other countries in Europe. If it was really as racist as everyone makes out why don't we have the same issues as, for example, France does? It should really be carnage here. There's 3 different races on my street, we should all be posting dogs**t through eachother's letterboxes.

Of course I know "where" I'm talking about though, I'm half Dutch, I have family over there who I visit regularly. I know it's not the official name, but I don't go around calling this country Éire to avoid confusing it with the entire island of Ireland either

denhaagenite

simonw wrote: »

Of course I know "where" I'm talking about though, I'm half Dutch, I have family over there who I visit regularly. I know it's not the official name, but I don't go around calling this country Éire to avoid confusing it with the entire island of Ireland either

Then you should know that the rest of NL barely registers the argument. It's the talk of the Randstad every year but here in Brabant some wear the makeup some don't. No- one cares except the tourists and the expats really. It's just so progressive to be outraged.

bodice ripper

denhaagenite wrote: »

Then you should know that the rest of NL barely registers the argument. It's the talk of the Randstad every year but here in Brabant some wear the makeup some don't. No- one cares except the tourists and the expats really. It's just so progressive to be outraged.

I don't know that anyone said they were outraged.

I didn't start the thread out of outrage, I started it because I had bought a little blackface kit, and I think the whole thing is fascinating.

And to say no one cares is unfair. I know plenty of people over here who are neither tourists nor expats who feel quite strongly about it.

denhaagenite

You're in the Randstad. I don't know what the ratio of native Dutch to "Foreigner" is in Amsterdam but I bet it's pretty close. Have you seen the optocht yet actually? Is this your first year?

Donkey Oaty

denhaagenite wrote: »

You're in the Randstad. I don't know what the ratio of native Dutch to "Foreigner" is in Amsterdam but I bet it's pretty close. Have you seen the optocht yet actually? Is this your first year?

Just under 50% Dutch, and the rest foreign ancestry, according to worldpopulationreview.com.

Don't know how accurate that is, but seems plausible enough.

bodice ripper

denhaagenite wrote: »

You're in the Randstad. I don't know what the ratio of native Dutch to "Foreigner" is in Amsterdam but I bet it's pretty close. Have you seen the optocht yet actually? Is this your first year?

I do know these people personally, and yes they are Dutch and they definitely give a ****, on both sides. The foreigners I know for the most part just go "Jesus Christ, these people are mental", as they do in the face of most Dutch eccentricities. They don't have much invested emotionally in the debate.

And no, I have never seen it, I am always working. But I am here three years now, I just work a lot.

wexie

bodice ripper wrote: »

The foreigners I know for the most part just go "Jesus Christ, these people are mental", as they do in the face of most Dutch eccentricities.

If you haven't already read it you should see if you can get a copy of this :
http://www.amazon.com/The-UnDutchables-observation-netherlands-inhabitants/dp/188858047X

Very amusing

denhaagenite

bodice ripper wrote: »

I do know these people personally, and yes they are Dutch and they definitely give a ****, on both sides. The foreigners I know for the most part just go "Jesus Christ, these people are mental", as they do in the face of most Dutch eccentricities. They don't have much invested emotionally in the debate.

And no, I have never seen it, I am always working. But I am here three years now, I just work a lot.

It's hilarious. We all know they're mental, I just prefer when they make no apologies for it :pac:

bodice ripper

denhaagenite wrote: »

It's hilarious. We all know they're mental, I just prefer when they make no apologies for it :pac:

Everyone is entitled, nay encouraged to be mental.

Dutch people seem to me to mature into fabulously mental, a kind of mental we would do well to emulate in Ireland. Young Dutch people seem insufferably straight laced. I find it hard to believe young people could take themselves so seriously.

I have zero idea what happens in between.

denhaagenite

I think they need to reach a certain quota of koffie, gebak, fristi, dierendagen, en koning/ koninginnedagen before they get there.

FTA69

denhaagenite wrote: »

I was at a party for Diwali in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago, myself and other white women wore Sari, the men wore Sherwani, is that racist?

No. But if ye slapped on a load fake tan and started bumbling around the place acting like Apu from the Simpsons and taking the p*ss out of Indians then yes, you'd be a bit over the line. And that's exactly the sort of thing that's going on with Zwarte Piet. It's a mock up of slavery whereupon the African is portrayed as a dozy loveable servant, like Manuel from Fawlty Towers only with badly mocked up bubba lips and Moorish jewellery. It's a pretty sh*t depiction of black people that they've every right to disagree with.

wexie

denhaagenite wrote: »

I think they need to reach a certain quota of koffie, gebak, fristi, dierendagen, en koning/ koninginnedagen before they get there.

it's actually quite a well kept secret (I don't mind letting you in on it) but there's a chemical in the erwtensoep (snert) that does it

denhaagenite

FTA69 wrote: »

No. But if ye slapped on a load fake tan and started bumbling around the place acting like Apu from the Simpsons and taking the p*ss out of Indians then yes, you'd be a bit over the line. And that's exactly the sort of thing that's going on with Zwarte Piet. It's a mock up of slavery whereupon the African is portrayed as a dozy loveable servant, like Manuel from Fawlty Towers only with badly mocked up bubba lips and Moorish jewellery. It's a pretty sh*t depiction of black people that they've every right to disagree with.

What, they decide who's well behaved enough to have a gift and give children sweets? They play jokes on people? Oh ya that's a terrible thing to say about anyone :rolleyes:.

wexie wrote: »

it's actually quite a well kept secret (I don't mind letting you in on it) but there's a chemical in the erwtensoep (snert) that does it

Not to mention maanzaaden...

bodice ripper

wexie wrote: »

it's actually quite a well kept secret (I don't mind letting you in on it) but there's a chemical in the erwtensoep (snert) that does it

Snert is the best thing about the Netherlands. Hands down. I even called my rabbit Snert.

FTA69

denhaagenite wrote: »

What, they decide who's well behaved enough to have a gift and give children sweets? They play jokes on people? Oh ya that's a terrible thing to say about anyone :rolleyes:.
...

Just like this restaurant harmlessly sold some chicken?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Chicken_Inn

keeponhurling

FTA69 wrote: »

Just like this restaurant harmlessly sold some chicken?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coon_Chicken_Inn

What were you googling to find that ?!