Zwarte Piet

bodice ripper

So, today I bought this kit for blacking yourself or your children up for Sinterklaas. We're coming into the season.

Zwarte Piet (pronounced [ˈzʋɑrtə ˈpit]; English: Black Peter) is the companion of Saint Nicholas (Dutch: Sinterklaas) in the folklore of the Low Countries. The character first appeared in its current form in an 1850 book by Jan Schenkman and is commonly depicted as a blackamoor. Actors portraying Zwarte Piet typically put on blackface make-up and colourful Renaissance attire, in addition to curly wigs, red lipstick and earrings. In recent years, the character has become the subject of controversy, especially in the Netherlands.[1][2]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet


I have to say it is quite jarring to watch as a foreigner, especially as some people take exception to foreigners having an opinion on it. My Facebook feed is alive with angry debate this time of year. You should see the faces of American tourists as they encounter grown men in the full regalia.

I'd have to admit that I bought the kit in part because I can't imagine this could continue in perpetuity and it seemed like a cultural souvenir worth having.

So, any thoughts? I hate to see the Dutch outshine the Irish in online bickering, even on a homegrown topic like this...

RobYourBuilder

I have to say it is quite jarring to watch as a foreigner, especially as some people take exception to foreigners having an opinion on it

Well, you are a guest in The Netherlands and it is a cultural tradition of theirs, so what do you expect?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

bodice ripper wrote: »

So, today I bought this kit for blacking yourself or your children up for Sinterklaas. We're coming into the season.



http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet


I have to say it is quite jarring to watch as a foreigner, especially as some people take exception to foreigners having an opinion on it. My Facebook feed is alive with angry debate this time of year. You should see the faces of American tourists as they encounter grown men in the full regalia.

I'd have to admit that I bought the kit in part because I can't imagine this could continue in perpetuity and it seemed like a cultural souvenir worth having.

So, any thoughts? I hate to see the Dutch outshine the Irish in online bickering, even on a homegrown topic like this...

You're not this mythical pc-brigade I keep hearing about , are you?

J Mysterio

Whats interesting is that in Germany at this time of year they have Schwarze Peter (black peter). Schwarze peter is a chimney sweep though, not a negroid.

Zwarte Piet is definitely outdated and is probably racist.

bodice ripper

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Well, you are a guest in The Netherlands and it is a cultural tradition of theirs, so what do you expect?

Oh, nothing less of course. Everyone is like that, everywhere.

And I am not a guest, no more than Poles in Ireland are guests.

bodice ripper

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You're not this mythical pc-brigade I keep hearing about , are you?

Nope, card carrying offensive joke merchant.

crockholm

I'd walk a million miles for one of those smiles........

stimpson

There's only two things I hate - intolerance of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

evolving_doors

Is it racist to make your face darker?

Well soldiers use camouflage and they are not being racist!

Is this darker colour specifically to represent a person of darker skin (from Africa for example!).

I think so?

What if this is an effort to imitate a black saint.. (which I think from the german take on it is it would be).

If I were to venerate say nelson mandela by taking on his likeness would I be racist?
I don't think so!

Although if I were to paint my face to imitate a race as foolish (like minstrels) then I think I would be a racist as Im perpetuating a stereotype.... although Eddie Murphy does that to the nth degree and it passes as harmless fun.

was it bad that Noddy had a black friend but folk got nervous and he became a bit of 'the doll that dare not speak its name'.

Wow this is just to complicated OP... what exactly was your question?

Some people buy Nazi memerobelia.. but I think the motivation behind it is the question.

Chunners

**** me that image is hilarious

kneemos

Armelodie wrote: »

Is it racist to make your face darker?


If I were to venerate say nelson mandela by taking on his likeness would I be racist?
I don't think so!

Yes and yes.

Uncle Ruckus

Armelodie wrote: »

was it bad that Noddy had a black friend but folk got nervous and he became a bit of 'the doll that dare not speak its name'.
.

You mean this guy in the bottom left? I can't remember him but I only watched the t.v series.

Robbo

bodice ripper wrote: »

So, today I bought this kit for blacking yourself or your children up for Sinterklaas. We're coming into the season.

You disappoint me by not ending it with "...gets earlier every year, doesn't it?"

old_aussie

By any chance is your name Al Jolson

dissed doc

Robbo wrote: »

You disappoint me by not ending it with "...gets earlier every year, doesn't it?"

Not in Holland, as everything has a precise schedule for it starts and stops!

Grayson

J Mysterio wrote: »

Whats interesting is that in Germany at this time of year they have Schwarze Peter (black peter). Schwarze peter is a chimney sweep though, not a negroid.

Zwarte Piet is definitely outdated and is probably racist.

i was going to ask why the face is black. If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok. If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

Idleater

Grayson wrote: »

i was going to ask why the face is black.... If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

Something in between, santa claus arrives by boat from Spain with his helpers and gives spiced sweets from the colonies to the children of the house.

Hermy

Grayson wrote: »

If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok.

Right so. No more Irish jokes, no more leprechaun suits and no more Darby O'Gill and the Little People.

wexie

Grayson wrote: »

i was going to ask why the face is black. If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok. If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

Idleater wrote: »

Something in between, santa claus arrives by boat from Spain with his helpers and gives spiced sweets from the colonies to the children of the house.

Depends on who you ask really, Zwarte Piet would traditionally be a Moor however they also deliver presents down the chimney

MagicMarker

Hermy wrote: »

Right so. No more Irish jokes, no more leprechaun suits and no more Darby O'Gill and the Little People.

Are Irish people a race now?

Hermy

MagicMarker wrote: »

Are Irish people a race now?

I have no idea.
It's a bit early for technicalities.

Grayson

Hermy wrote: »

Right so. No more Irish jokes, no more leprechaun suits and no more Darby O'Gill and the Little People.

I can live with that. Even Connery pretends he was never in it.

wexie

MagicMarker wrote: »

Are Irish people a race now?

I dunno, but certainly after the whole Korean 'we can't hire you because your people are all alcoholics) there were certainly plenty of cries of racism.

Beaner1

There is no talking to the dutch on this. Reasonable, liberal types and that all goes out the window when people suggest it's a bit racist.

They will tell you he's black because of chimney soot. Then please explain the red lip paint and golliwog hair.

Idleater

wexie wrote: »

however they also deliver presents down the chimney

Agreed, when I was growing up, I asked how children in houses with no fireplaces got visited, so that story in our house was boat and Spain.

I followed the unesco cultural envoy threatening not to list the Netherlands in some new ranked listing of culturally aware countries because of this last year. The response was as only the Dutch would : we didn't ask to be listed, nor do we care, it's our tradition for longer than you have existed.

MagicMarker

Hermy wrote: »

I have no idea.
It's a bit early for technicalities.

We'll you're not technically wrong, you're just wrong.

FTA69

MagicMarker wrote: »

We'll you're not technically wrong, you're just wrong.

Racism includes discrimination based on nationality and ethnicity as well.

MagicMarker

FTA69 wrote: »

Racism includes discrimination based on nationality and ethnicity as well.

No it doesn't.

_Kaiser_

Having lived over there for a few years when I was a kid, I remember this alright.

It's just harmless traditional fun for the kids, like Santa Claus here. FFS guys will be dressing up as a fat white guy who gives out toys to young impressionable kids while they sit on his knee - does that mean that they're slagging off fat people, or promoting pedeophilia?

Bloody PC nonsense as usual.. Looking to be offended when there's no reason to be. Some people really need to get over themselves.

FTA69

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it doesn't.

I'm afraid it does.

"the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[25]"

The UN definition as above:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism#Legal

wexie

Idleater wrote: »

I followed the unesco cultural envoy threatening not to list the Netherlands in some new ranked listing of culturally aware countries because of this last year. The response was as only the Dutch would : we didn't ask to be listed, nor do we care, it's our tradition for longer than you have existed.

It's entirely true, personally I don't quite see how it can be considered racist if it's been a tradition for so long and, importantly, there is absolutely no negative intent whatsoever.

Having said that it's probably a somewhat pointless discussion as it seems opinions are pretty well divided and never the twain shall meet

Tail Docker

Is it not a bit off that Christmas and the western traditions that go along with that, and have done for such a long time, start coming under pressure due to "PC" constraints? Christmas is brilliant, I wish they'd feck off and concentrate on the shape of fruit and putting up signs.

wexie

MagicMarker wrote: »

No it doesn't.

oh so you can't be racist to itinerants then?
You should go tell Pavee point

Beaner1

You can't hide behind tradition to justify everything. It's a racist tradition. The character is representative of a 19th century view of a bumbling negro.

bodice ripper

Tail Docker wrote: »

Is it not a bit off that Christmas and the western traditions that go along with that, and have done for such a long time, start coming under pressure due to "PC" constraints? Christmas is brilliant, I wish they'd feck off and concentrate on the shape of fruit and putting up signs.

It's not Christmas, they have Christmas when we do. This is for Sinterklaas, on the 5th of December.

Zwarte Piet was created by one individual in a book in 1850, and according to Wikipedia

"Until 1920 there were several books giving him other names, and in contemporaneous appearances the name and looks still varied considerably."

So it's not an old tradition at all.

bodice ripper

Grayson wrote: »

i was going to ask why the face is black. If they're parodying a race it's probably not ok. If it's something like a chimney sweep, it's probably ok.

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

_Kaiser_

Beaner1 wrote: »

You can't hide behind tradition to justify everything. It's a racist tradition. The character is representative of a 19th century view of a bumbling negro.

And Santa Claus is a fat white guy which is taking a pop at the obese, encourages child abuse, and perpetuates the idea of the White man being superior :rolleyes:

This whole politically correct "racist" nonsense has gone way too far in my opinion. It's the late 20th/21st century's version of witch burning or Christian fundamentalism and it's damaging our society and cultures as a result in everything from harmless traditions like this, to humour, to parenting, as those who buy into it do their utmost to keep their heads down and conform to the herd - ultimately resulting in a shirking of responsibilities we take on as adults

- Guy gives a description of a road traffic accident and mentions that the other driver was a black woman/non-national. Sure it probably never happened at all, he's just a big racist and sexist too!!
- Little Johnny steals.. bless him, he's from a broken home or disadvantaged area
- Johnny's parents are crippled with debt because they overextended themselves on the mortgage. Not their fault - the banks/their friends/the government "bullied" them into it

It's long past time that some people stopped looking to be offended at every opportunity, realised that the INTENT of something is what determines if it's offensive or "wrong", and frankly copped the fook on to themselves and minded their own business.

Grayson

bodice ripper wrote: »

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

the red lips could be from sucking on firelighters and for all you know he could have a ginger fro under all that soot

wexie

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's long past time that some people stopped looking to be offended at every opportunity, realised that the INTENT of something is what determines if it's offensive or "wrong", and frankly copped the fook on to themselves and minded their own business.

It nearly seems that 'finding offence' has become a hobby for some people. Even finding offence on behalf of other groups they have no relationship with whatsoever.

I'm telling you it won't be long until Santa can't have elves anymore because it's considered offensive to little people.

Birneybau

HELLOOO DAVE.

J Mysterio

wexie wrote: »

I dunno, but certainly after the whole Korean 'we can't hire you because your people are all alcoholics) there were certainly plenty of cries of racism.

What?

J Mysterio

bodice ripper wrote: »

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

Haha. Spitting on the ground.

newmug

bodice ripper wrote: »

It's fairly disingenuous to say it's from a chimney, when it accompanied by an Afro wig, big red lips and big gold earrings.

Whether or not I thought the character is racist, when people here try the chimney line I feel like spitting on the ground.

Woo-HOO ya big mad rebel ya!

bodice ripper

newmug wrote: »

Woo-HOO ya big mad rebel ya!

well, I have to maintain my reputation...

wexie

J Mysterio wrote: »

What?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-teacher-denied-job-in-korea-due-to-alcoholism-of-your-kind-30722989.html

J Mysterio

Ho ho ho. Holy ****.

Pinch Flat

Gas thread. I found baron samedi in live and let die wholly offensive as white person

http://youtu.be/gX3wGWHRlXQ

suicide_circus

"I find xyz offensive"

"Ok, and?"

"You should stop doing xyz"

"No"

bodice ripper

you'll note I didn't say it should stop. I have Dutch friends who are very passionate in their defense of Zwarte Piet, and I do not think less of them for it.

I also am not that fond of restricting anyone's freedoms, even if it is causing offence.

However, the way in which it is defended is frequently more distasteful than the character itself, and the particularly pig headed way in which some Dutch people refuse to even see how it could be offensive to someone other than themselves does their point no favours...

RobYourBuilder

bodice ripper wrote: »

you'll note I didn't say it should stop. I have Dutch friends who are very passionate in their defense of Zwarte Piet, and I do not think less of them for it.

I also am not that fond of restricting anyone's freedoms, even if it is causing offence.

However, the way in which it is defended is frequently more distasteful than the character itself, and the particularly pig headed way in which some Dutch people refuse to even see how it could be offensive to someone other than themselves does their point no favours...

Other countries have some self respect and appreciation for their cultural heritage. The Dutch don't give a flying windmill what foreigners think of Zwarte Piet.

"It is an old Dutch children's tradition, Saint Nicolas and Black Pete. It is not about a green or brown Pete and I cannot change that. I can only say that my friends in the Netherlands Antilles are very happy with the Saint Nicolas celebration, because they don't have to paint their faces. When I play Black Pete, I am for days trying to get the grime off my face," Rutte stated when confronted with a question by Dutch-American journalist Kevin Roberson of the US news blog Examiner.com at a press conference on Sunday, preceding the Nuclear Security Summit.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, meanwhile, has sided with tradition. "Black Pete is black. There's not much I can do to change that," he said.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/03/black-pete/

http://www.thedailyherald.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46779:rutte-criticised-for-black-pete-remark&catid=1:islands-news&Itemid=54

No f*cks given and rightfully so.

bodice ripper

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Other countries have some self respect and appreciation dor their cultural heritage. The Dutch don't give a flying windmill what foreigners think of Zwarte Piet.





http://mashable.com/2014/07/03/black-pete/

http://www.thedailyherald.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46779:rutte-criticised-for-black-pete-remark&catid=1:islands-news&Itemid=54

No f*cks given and rightfully so.

I am entitled to an opinion, even if no one else cares.

Its exactly as old as Minstrel shows in the US, would we defend that as tradition?