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Zwarte Piet

1246

Comments

  • #92
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    rozeboosje wrote: »
    It's just as insulting to be told you're doing something "racist" just because somewhere in the world actual racists are doing it for racist reasons.

    I've only referred to zwarte piet as racist, nothing else. You don't and more than likely won't see it as such.


  • #93
    rozeboosje
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭rozeboosje


    So if we can all agree that before labeling something as "racist" we should take into account the actual intention of the person doing it, THEN we can move on. Happy with that?


  • #94
    rozeboosje
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭rozeboosje


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I don't believe the reasons are racist. The portrayal on the other hand...

    Nope. Unless the audience is told that the "Zwarte Piet" portrays, say, "a Surinamer", or this can clearly be deduced from the fact that the "Zwarte Piet" is speaking with a Surinam accent, the character is not intended to refer to any living person, and as such it cannot be racist.


  • #95
    anncoates
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,925 ✭✭✭✭anncoates


    Idleater wrote: »
    I followed the unesco cultural envoy threatening not to list the Netherlands in some new ranked listing of culturally aware countries because of this last year. The response was as only the Dutch would : we didn't ask to be listed, nor do we care, it's our tradition for longer than you have existed.

    I must confess to enjoying this.


  • #96
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    rozeboosje wrote: »
    So if we can all agree that before labeling something as "racist" we should take into account the actual intention of the person doing it, THEN we can move on. Happy with that?

    No, rather obviously.


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  • #97
    rozeboosje
    Closed Accounts Posts: 857 ✭✭✭rozeboosje


    Nodin wrote: »
    No, rather obviously.

    So let me get this straight: you demand the privilege of insulting other people but you get annoyed when it's lobbed right back at ya? Ok. Understood.

    And let there be no doubt about this: being told that the tradition that you've enjoyed all your life without a second thought about anybody's skin colour or any other physical attributes is "racist" is an insult. No ifs, buts or maybes.


  • #98
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    rozeboosje wrote: »
    So let me get this straight: you demand the privilege of insulting other people but you get annoyed when it's lobbed right back at ya? Ok. Understood.


    I don't believe I've insulted you, though I'm open to correction should you provide an example. You've been on the offensive and prickly since you began posting on the thread, however.


  • #99
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    Haven't read the whole thread so apologies if my points have been addressed already.

    Zwarte Piet, while indeed slightly sinister in nature and conjures up memories of slavery, is a tradition in the Netherlands that children absolutely love, and that fosters an amazing sense of community that I have really never encountered before. I have a friend from London who's parents are from Ghana. He is black and has 2 boys with his Dutch ex- girlfriend, and when they were small they used to put black makeup on their faces and don the odd clothing, completely oblivious to any underlying messages. It was sweets, gifts, a bit of a laugh, nothing more.

    The people who get up in arms about it here are the recent immigrants, of various nationalities, cultures and races. They're trying to make a problem anywhere they can, as far as I can see because they're unhappy with their lot. Friends I have of different race don't even give it a thought, mostly from Sint Maarten, Curacao, Surinaam, Indonesia. It's the people who aren't integrated and don't want to integrate are bothered by it.

    My two cents? Children don't see a colour unless we point it out to them. I think it's a funny little parade, pepernoten in shoes and that's it. If they ask questions when they're older, maybe it's a good way to open the topic of the history of the Netherlands not so proud history of slavery and a way to educate. If I have children, that's certainly the way I'm going to handle it.


  • #100
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    rozeboosje wrote: »
    So if we can all agree that before labeling something as "racist" we should take into account the actual intention of the person doing it, THEN we can move on. Happy with that?


    nope.


  • #101
    Teyla Emmagan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,641 ✭✭✭Teyla Emmagan


    I think Zwarte Piet is kinda cool.


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  • #102
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It a cultural thing but I do understand if black people are offended.

    So what do black people suggest happens? NL stops using Piete altogether or just remove the blackface?


  • #103
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    biko wrote: »
    It a cultural thing but I do understand if black people are offended.

    So what do black people suggest happens? NL stops using Piete altogether or just remove the blackface?


    there are a number of suggestions being bandied about; different colored face paint (which I think everyone hated), actually sooting up the face instead, or losing the lips/earrings. The last one is slowly being introduced in amsterdam.

    the consensus seems to be that the masses are being strongarmed by the intectual elite in Amsterdam, but I think that is how everyone feels about the capital of any given country.


  • #104
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    How about just hiring real black people to play the role?


    Probably racist too.


  • #105
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    biko wrote: »
    How about just hiring real black people to play the role?


    Probably racist too.


    I would have thought it was less offensive, but I cant recall seeing a single Zwarte Piet who was actually black.


  • #106
    wexie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,480 ✭✭✭wexie


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    actually sooting up the face instead

    is soot not supposed to be real bad for ya?


  • #107
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    wexie wrote: »
    is soot not supposed to be real bad for ya?


    ?
    i'd imagine its just carbon.

    and i imagine you could achieve the effect with face paint.


  • #108
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Beaner1 wrote: »
    You can't hide behind tradition to justify everything. It's a racist tradition. The character is representative of a 19th century view of a bumbling negro.

    Perhaps there are some black folk who are bumbling! People are people... there's definitely a white jolly fat bearded guy... Is this an affront to people who are white!!!

    If someone who was black laughed at the image, would you take offence on their behalf just to be polite?


  • #109
    simonw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭simonw


    rozeboosje wrote: »
    Of course. And if you present that as "a Jew" then you'd quite rightly be accused of racism. But what if you had a tradition that features a hunched, wizened and hook nosed person in a positive light without any reference to what religion or ethnicity they are supposed to be, and then people who observe the tradition start telling you that you're being racist against Jews? That would be ludicrous.

    I can't believe you don't see why people would find Zwarte Piet offensive. My Da is Dutch, and I remember going to see Sinterklaas every year as a kid, as there is an event organised by the Dutch Embassy. Obviously, as a child, I just thought it was funny facepaint and a bit of craic, and never stopped to consider it again. I was in Holland at christmas 2 years ago and was actually gobsmacked when I saw the costumes and facepaint in shops.

    What if there was a tradition in the UK of Santa having assorted idiot servants instead of elves? One white one carrying potatos, one brown one with a red dot on their forehead, etc, and all played by white English guys in makeup. Just because the characters bring presents, and children don't connect the stereotype with racism, does that make it grand, yeah?


  • #110
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    simonw wrote: »
    What if there was a tradition in the UK of Santa having assorted idiot servants instead of elves? One white one carrying potatos, one brown one with a red dot on their forehead, etc, and all played by white English guys in makeup. Just because the characters bring presents, and children don't connect the stereotype with racism, does that make it grand, yeah?

    I was at a party for Diwali in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago, myself and other white women wore Sari, the men wore Sherwani, is that racist? What if an Asian person dresses as Sinterklaas? Or an Indo- Caribbean?


  • #111
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    I just wanted to pop in here and say that denhaagenite is an incredible username. Kudos.


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  • #112
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    I just wanted to pop in here and say that denhaagenite is an incredible username. Kudos.

    When in Rome


  • #113
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    When in Rome

    But, but, you are in Eindhoven...


  • #114
    simonw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭simonw


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    I was at a party for Diwali in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago, myself and other white women wore Sari, the men wore Sherwani, is that racist?
    Obviously not.
    denhaagenite wrote: »
    What if an Asian person dresses as Sinterklaas? Or an Indo- Caribbean?

    Sinterklaas? Again, obviously not - race is pretty much incidental to that character. The problem with zwarte piet is that he is dressed specifically as a caricature of a black person. He could easily be changed to just "a guy with soot on his face", and that would be grand


  • #115
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    denhaagenite wrote: »
    I was at a party for Diwali in Dusseldorf a few weeks ago, myself and other white women wore Sari, the men wore Sherwani, is that racist? What if an Asian person dresses as Sinterklaas? Or an Indo- Caribbean?

    It is if you do it in conjunction with exaggerated racial characteristics, sure.


  • #116
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    Feck the PC brigade, It isn't racism the Dutch people are among the most egalitarian in Europe. To say they are racists is delusional.


  • #117
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    Feck the PC brigade, It isn't racism the Dutch people are among the most egalitarian in Europe. To say they are racists is delusional.

    And if anyone had done that on thread, you would have a point.


  • #118
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    Ik was in Den Haag. Ik ben nu in Eindhoven. Ik zal morgen naar Maastricht en volgende week, Amsterdam. Helaas pindakaas.


  • #119
    denhaagenite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭denhaagenite


    bodice ripper wrote: »
    It is if you do it in conjunction with exaggerated racial characteristics, sure.

    Does dancing really badly to Bhangra music under the influence count?


  • #120
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,219 ✭✭✭✭biko


    simonw wrote: »
    The problem with zwarte piet is that he is dressed specifically as a caricature of a black person.
    Not really. It's just the blackface, red lips and ear rings.
    The dress has nothing "black" about it at all.


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  • #121
    simonw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 648 ✭✭✭simonw


    MRnotlob606 wrote: »
    Feck the PC brigade, It isn't racism the Dutch people are among the most egalitarian in Europe. To say they are racists is delusional.

    Geert Wilders will be delighted to hear you say that


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