Got Issued A Penalty Notice By Irish Rail After Being Allowed To Travel By Staff!

lucernarian

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It also says a lot if you have to ask if a ticket is still valid even though you know you were supposed to travel the day before. Of course the OP knew the ticket wasnt valid and i would be confident that he was told that as well and its a case of the OP chancing their arm to save buying a new one.
Unless his ticket was endorsed by someone and signed and dated then i cant see the OP being successful here.

I would hope that rather than casting aspersions on the poster, we could stick to what's been posted and offer advice or comment on what has been written here, not the imaginings of other posters and the "man up, pay the fine" responses.

As foggy lad and corktina IMO correctly highlighted, it seems a number of authorised officials of Irish Rail didnt stop or else allowed him to board a train. Naturally one would hope to avoid paying for a journey twice by asking a staff member for advice and help. Based on this story and this story alone, Irish Rail are responsible here and the ire should be directed at the, I stress, Authorised Officials who failed to endorse the ticket and cost the company extra revenue or even the rpu fella who wasted the OP's time.

I don't know if the appeal *should* be granted without proof of an endorsed ticket but phone calls can be made and facts verified with the relevant staff before an appeal is granted or denied. Even CCTV could be used to show that he approached different staff (albeit it wouldn't be able to show employee responses etc owing to the rules for many CIE staff regarding cctv in the workplace).

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It also says a lot if you have to ask if a ticket is still valid even though you know you were supposed to travel the day before. Of course the OP knew the ticket wasnt valid and i would be confident that he was told that as well and its a case of the OP chancing their arm to save buying a new one.
Unless his ticket was endorsed by someone and signed and dated then i cant see the OP being successful here.

OK the position as regards the conditions of carriage and the bye-laws are very clear on this and they state that a person may not travel on any ticket which is not for the journey they wish to take or is not valid on the train they wish to travel on BUT any authorised person may give any such person permission to travel on their invalid ticket!

The same applies for people with NO tickets, If the op had no ticket at all and went up to the barrier with some sob story and the "authorised person" let them through to board the train that is giving them the required permission to travel!

Alf Veedersane

corktina wrote: »

I'm sorry, but not everyone is an expert on ticket law. If you ask an IE employee (3 in this case) "Is it OK if I travel on this ticket today?" and they say it is...then it is (imo). How are you supposed to know, if not told, that there is another system in place you should be following unless they tell you?

IE staff fell down on the job creating this situation. We should be asking "Why?"

He wasn't told by three people that it was ok.

The first two directed him elsewhere.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like i said, "your man said it was ok" is no proof at all.

Proof is not required as the op states that he was allowed through the barrier so there will be CCTV footage and the staff member should have made a note of it somewhere if unable to remember things that happened in the recent past.

Riva10

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

He wasn't told by three people that it was ok.

The first two directed him elsewhere.

He was not told that is was wrong to travel by those two people, either.

corktina

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

He wasn't told by three people that it was ok.

The first two directed him elsewhere.

Really? well if the Information don't have basic information and the ticket office don't know about ticket validity, then that's hardly the OPs problem. They passed the buck instead of saying "no you need a new ticket" They didn't do their job properly and passed him on to the poor guy on the barrier who is in all probability of a lower grade.

Hilly Bill

kopfan77 wrote: »

No argument on that....totally agree that OP has no proof and as such appeal will not make any difference to outcome......BUT

The issue is still the fact that he was told that he was ok!!

Anywho...lesson to be learned is dont trust the IE employees to do their job lol

Was he told that he was ok though?
Better just not ask someone to let you on for free in the first place.

not really the fault of the OP the first person he dealt with at the IE should have just said no the ticket was not valid, none of the staff seemed to bothered,
how is the inspector to know he was given permission or just hopped a barrier?
did the inspector give you a ticket on the train then? how did you get through the barrier at the other station?

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

I'm sorry, but not everyone is an expert on ticket law. If you ask an IE employee (3 in this case) "Is it OK if I travel on this ticket today?" and they say it is...then it is (imo). How are you supposed to know, if not told, that there is another system in place you should be following unless they tell you?

IE staff fell down on the job creating this situation. We should be asking "Why?"

why would you even ask when you know it had expired? The ony one that created the situation was the OP.

Hilly Bill

lucernarian wrote: »

I would hope that rather than casting aspersions on the poster, we could stick to what's been posted and offer advice or comment on what has been written here, not the imaginings of other posters and the "man up, pay the fine" responses.

As foggy lad and corktina IMO correctly highlighted, it seems a number of authorised officials of Irish Rail didnt stop or else allowed him to board a train. Naturally one would hope to avoid paying for a journey twice by asking a staff member for advice and help. Based on this story and this story alone, Irish Rail are responsible here and the ire should be directed at the, I stress, Authorised Officials who failed to endorse the ticket and cost the company extra revenue or even the rpu fella who wasted the OP's time.

I don't know if the appeal *should* be granted without proof of an endorsed ticket but phone calls can be made and facts verified with the relevant staff before an appeal is granted or denied. Even CCTV could be used to show that he approached different staff (albeit it wouldn't be able to show employee responses etc owing to the rules for many CIE staff regarding cctv in the workplace).

You can be assured that the first person he asked told him that the ticket was invalid and he had to get a new one, same goes for the other 2 people he says he asked. He knew himself that the ticket had expired so why blame anyone else apart from the OP?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

OK the position as regards the conditions of carriage and the bye-laws are very clear on this and they state that a person may not travel on any ticket which is not for the journey they wish to take or is not valid on the train they wish to travel on BUT any authorised person may give any such person permission to travel on their invalid ticket!

The same applies for people with NO tickets, If the op had no ticket at all and went up to the barrier with some sob story and the "authorised person" let them through to board the train that is giving them the required permission to travel!

From whats been told he was only let through the barrier , still no proof that the chap told him that he could travel on an expired ticket.
RPU only sees someone without a valid ticket, they hardly going to let him away with it just he says the chap let me through the barrier. Its up to you to make sure you have a valid ticket for that journey.

Hilly Bill

Riva10 wrote: »

He was not told that is was wrong to travel by those two people, either.

So if you put your hand in a fire and get burnt, would you blame someone else for not telling you not to do it because its wrong?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Proof is not required as the op states that he was allowed through the barrier so there will be CCTV footage and the staff member should have made a note of it somewhere if unable to remember things that happened in the recent past.

No need for the cctv footage as you said that proof is not required.

Of course you need proof if you are appealing a fine.

Kh1993

Was in a similar situation during the summer in Galway - had a ticket for any train on Sunday, ended up being able to come home Saturday.
Asked the worker in ticket office, he didn't have a clue, or the two other staff he called. Eventually Irish Rail tweeted me to tell me I'd to pay an extra tenner, which was fine, but the ticket office didn't know what this was about. (eventually printed me a new ticket for the tenner after making enquiries for a good 15 mins)

So It wouldn't surprise me that 2 different staff members directed the OP elsewhere. People are assuming the OP has tried to pull a fast one (on what basis?) , but at the end of the day, if an Irish rail ticket checker gave me the okay on that ticket, I'd accept their word.

Del2005

corktina wrote: »

I'm sorry, but not everyone is an expert on ticket law.

Not knowing the law isn't a defence in the majority of cases both civil and criminal.

corktina

not knowing your job should be a sacking offence, maybe not for the staff member but for the manager responsible. It seems lots of people on here know the regualtions and IE staff don't. Doesn't that tell you something?
?

punisher5112

Is there a barcode on these tickets so they know that someone hasn't printed off 2 of same and travel at right time and have someone chance it the next day.

I don't see a problem with op going the next day once its on a train that's quiet and not over packed.

Also could be good if you could enter your code online to change arrangements within a specific time and not be charged a huge amount lets say €2.


Lets say all what op says is TRUE then training would be a high priority if someone in the company could see that it is needed.

Losty Dublin

punisher5112 wrote: »

Is there a barcode on these tickets so they know that someone hasn't printed off 2 of same and travel at right time and have someone chance it the next day.

I don't see a problem with op going the next day once its on a train that's quiet and not over packed.

Also could be good if you could enter your code online to change arrangements within a specific time and not be charged a huge amount lets say €2.


Lets say all what op says is TRUE then training would be a high priority if someone in the company could see that it is needed.

The tickets are actual train tickets and not print outs like airlines or ferries use. They are collected at ticket machines at stations or booking offices using a booking code.

_Kaiser_

This thread has gotten more abstract since I posted earlier...

Bottom line:

- Ticket was valid for return travel on 2/11, NOT 3/11
- First two IE employees referred him to someone else. The third guy pretty much shrugs and says "ok"
- Ticket inspector later checks the ticket and sees yesterday's date and issues a fine

Regardless of whether the guy at the gate should or shouldn't have let the OP through, the OP was fully aware that the ticket was expired.

So who's really to blame? The OP knowingly chancing it anyway, or the inspector doing his job?

Grandeeod

Heuston is full of ticket barriers that only open with a valid ticket. Why do we have staff standing at barriers so? Ah that would be redeployment.

Anyway, bottom line here is that the OP managed to get on the train at Heuston. Now he either hopped over the ticket barriers or was permitted by a staff member. Hopping over a barrier is very easy to spot, so I'll take the OP at face value and believe that a staff member allowed him to travel. The issue of some IE staff not knowing their arse from their elbow has been well documented. Only last summer I witnessed a mother and two kids with buggy, not buy a ticket at an unmanned station because the train was arriving. An obvious unregular traveller as she was totally unfamiliar with the station. Upon arrival in Heuston I expected to witness the new get tough policy that we see promoted here so often. But no, she pleaded ignorance and was let through. I stood right behind her in case she needed some form of defence. Staff member told her to buy the return ticket at the machine he pointed at and let her through. No penalty.

I've only ever been challenged once many years ago and I had a ticket. Travelling from Hazelhatch to Cork. The website journey planner/timetable told me to travel to Heuston by commuter train and then to Cork by IC train. At the time the Kildare route had guys on the train selling tickets. I asked for a return to Cork and he sold me one without question or confusion. But when I was boarding the Cork train in Heuston, the "Cork" lad told me my ticket was incorrect via a massive lecture on how my ticket was a return to Cork from Hazelhatch and I was actually in Dublin. Tried explaining. Waste of time. Let me on anyway. Approached me on the train to explain it again. Yet again I try to explain the reality to him, but he's not listening. He was "doing me a favour".:rolleyes:

I'm not in the least bit surprised that the "system" and staff still aren't integrated. Despite the overwhelming criticism of IE, they still think that the customer is a twat and they are right all of the time.

Mikros

Some of the pedantic replies on this thread are hilarious, blaming the OP instead of the 3 members of staff who either didn't know or didn't care enough about exchanging his ticket for a valid one or stop him travelling. I don't blame the ticket inspector who issued the fine - they were just doing their job - but the whole thing is indicative of the culture of IR and how they treat customers: inconsistent, confusing and more concerned about technicalities than whether they have lost or gained a customer.

(p.s. after another major signalling fault tonight during rush hour in Dublin I might be a little bitter)

Grandeeod

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

This thread has gotten more abstract since I posted earlier...

Bottom line:

- Ticket was valid for return travel on 2/11, NOT 3/11
- First two IE employees referred him to someone else. The third guy pretty much shrugs and says "ok"
- Ticket inspector later checks the ticket and sees yesterday's date and issues a fine

Regardless of whether the guy at the gate should or shouldn't have let the OP through, the OP was fully aware that the ticket was expired.

So who's really to blame? The OP knowingly chancing it anyway, or the inspector doing his job?

I usually agree with a lot of what you reason here, but that is a very very pedantic way of viewing the issue. The failure here, based on what was described was absolutely IE's fault. The OP was fully aware that the ticket expired and took measures to see if he could travel on it. Those measures allowed him to travel and then get nabbed by the inspector. Victim of a poor system.

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

not knowing your job should be a sacking offence, maybe not for the staff member but for the manager responsible. It seems lots of people on here know the regualtions and IE staff don't. Doesn't that tell you something?
?

Wrong, its a case of a lot on here think they know better .

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Wrong, its a case of a lot on here think they know better .

Explain.

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Heuston is full of ticket barriers that only open with a valid ticket. Why do we have staff standing at barriers so? Ah that would be redeployment.

Anyway, bottom line here is that the OP managed to get on the train at Heuston. Now he either hopped over the ticket barriers or was permitted by a staff member. Hopping over a barrier is very easy to spot, so I'll take the OP at face value and believe that a staff member allowed him to travel. The issue of some IE staff not knowing their arse from their elbow has been well documented. Only last summer I witnessed a mother and two kids with buggy, not buy a ticket at an unmanned station because the train was arriving. An obvious unregular traveller as she was totally unfamiliar with the station. Upon arrival in Heuston I expected to witness the new get tough policy that we see promoted here so often. But no, she pleaded ignorance and was let through. I stood right behind her in case she needed some form of defence. Staff member told her to buy the return ticket at the machine he pointed at and let her through. No penalty.

I've only ever been challenged once many years ago and I had a ticket. Travelling from Hazelhatch to Cork. The website journey planner/timetable told me to travel to Heuston by commuter train and then to Cork by IC train. At the time the Kildare route had guys on the train selling tickets. I asked for a return to Cork and he sold me one without question or confusion. But when I was boarding the Cork train in Heuston, the "Cork" lad told me my ticket was incorrect via a massive lecture on how my ticket was a return to Cork from Hazelhatch and I was actually in Dublin. Tried explaining. Waste of time. Let me on anyway. Approached me on the train to explain it again. Yet again I try to explain the reality to him, but he's not listening. He was "doing me a favour".:rolleyes:

I'm not in the least bit surprised that the "system" and staff still aren't integrated. Despite the overwhelming criticism of IE, they still think that the customer is a twat and they are right all of the time.

There are a lot out there . Most are decent though.

kerry4sam

alannm37 wrote: »

Hi All,

I got issued a penalty notice €100 (Fine) + €26 (Cost Of New Ticket) for supposedly travelling on an Non-Valid Ticket. To fully understand the situation, please read the email below of which I sent to the 'Revenue Protection Unit' stating everything that happened and let me know what you think the outcome should be, thanks!

-
Dear Reader,

I am just on on the train here and received a penalty notice for so called "Fare Evasion". My story is I have a ticket which I purchased for departing Farranfore going to Dublin Heuston on a Tuesday 28th October and returning yesterday 2nd October. Before departing this morning, I explained that I wished to take this train to 3 members of staff. Firstly, I went to the information desk, there was a woman there, and asked if it was okay to travel this morning or would I have to buy a new ticket, she directed me to go to the Ticket office and inquire there, so I did. At the ticket office I explained the same thing again, about if it was okay to travel this morning instead of yesterday on this ticket or would I have to get a new one, the woman there directed me to go to the ticket barrier and see what the person there would say, so I did. At the ticket barrier, I explained to the male there the same situation there, he stared at the ticket for a few seconds and he said only "okay" and then directed me through the barrier. Therefore, I was under the impression I was doing no wrong by going on the train as I made every possible effort to make sure I was given the go ahead. If asked to buy another ticket, that would have been no problem.

I was explained by the penalty issuer, there is an appeal process, I would like to do this and not pay a fine as I clearly did no wrong and did not intentionally travel without a valid ticket, I was clearly given the go ahead by a member of Irish Rail staff.

Regards,
(My Name)
-

Next-time just ask them to put it in writing. I've changed times and even days in the past. All I've done is spoke with either the ticket-office (at station before leaving) or else whoever checked my ticket.
Only ever handed over an additional 10euro to alter the date/time. They then either stapled on a different colour ticket over my original with new details or just wrote on and stamped my original with new details.
Never had an issue thereafter.

Appeal it & hope you re-post how it goes for you

Listen though, their are bigger issues in life to be dealing with, so don't be letting this get to you.

Thanks,
kerry4sam

Hilly Bill

Grandeeod wrote: »

Explain.

It explains itself.

Grandeeod

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It explains itself.

No it doesn't explain itself. Why the obvious inconsistency from IE staff? How did the OP find himself in this situation?

I know how disheartening customer service can be. I fully support workers/companies/small businesses and what they have to put up with from customers that are unreasonable and don't read Terms and Conditions/contracts etc. However we are talking about a semi state that has been in existance for nearly 70 odd years. At this stage one would expect that it has its **** together.

Hilly Bill

Do you really need to ask how the OP got into this situation? OP decides to stay and extra day, ticket expires, decides not buy a new one so asks if he could travel on the expired one instead. He would have been told by the info desk and the booking office that he would have to buy a new ticket so i dont buy that he wasnt told. Its all in the thread.

How was your weekend anyway? do anything nice?

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Do you really need to ask how the OP got into this situation? OP decides to stay and extra day, ticket expires, decides not buy a new one so asks if he could travel on the expired one instead. He would have been told by the info desk and the booking office that he would have to buy a new ticket so i dont buy that he wasnt told. Its all in the thread.

How was your weekend anyway? do anything nice?

I'm constantly amused at "the op must my lying as that would never happen" argument.

This is an internet forum. No one has any reason to lie about IR as it makes no difference in the real world, so why would they.