Got Issued A Penalty Notice By Irish Rail After Being Allowed To Travel By Staff!

alannm37

Hi All,

I got issued a penalty notice €100 (Fine) + €26 (Cost Of New Ticket) for supposedly travelling on an Non-Valid Ticket. To fully understand the situation, please read the email below of which I sent to the 'Revenue Protection Unit' stating everything that happened and let me know what you think the outcome should be, thanks!

-
Dear Reader,

I am just on on the train here and received a penalty notice for so called "Fare Evasion". My story is I have a ticket which I purchased for departing Farranfore going to Dublin Heuston on a Tuesday 28th October and returning yesterday 2nd October. Before departing this morning, I explained that I wished to take this train to 3 members of staff. Firstly, I went to the information desk, there was a woman there, and asked if it was okay to travel this morning or would I have to buy a new ticket, she directed me to go to the Ticket office and inquire there, so I did. At the ticket office I explained the same thing again, about if it was okay to travel this morning instead of yesterday on this ticket or would I have to get a new one, the woman there directed me to go to the ticket barrier and see what the person there would say, so I did. At the ticket barrier, I explained to the male there the same situation there, he stared at the ticket for a few seconds and he said only "okay" and then directed me through the barrier. Therefore, I was under the impression I was doing no wrong by going on the train as I made every possible effort to make sure I was given the go ahead. If asked to buy another ticket, that would have been no problem.

I was explained by the penalty issuer, there is an appeal process, I would like to do this and not pay a fine as I clearly did no wrong and did not intentionally travel without a valid ticket, I was clearly given the go ahead by a member of Irish Rail staff.

Regards,
(My Name)
-

corktina

Out of curiosity, why didn't you use the ticket when you bought it?

alannm37

corktina wrote: »

Out of curiosity, why didn't you use the ticket when you bought it?

I travel to Dublin on weekends as my girlfriend is in UCD, she asked me to stay an extra night because she wasn't feeling well so I stayed. Thanks for your reply!

corktina

I was confused. So you travelled up on it, but were travelling back just a day late?

alannm37

corktina wrote: »

I was confused. So you travelled up on it, but were travelling back just a day late?

I travelled up on this ticket yet. And one day late is correct, was supposed to be 7pm train last night, but wanted to take 9am train the next morning instead....

alannm37

corktina wrote: »

I was confused. So you travelled up on it, but were travelling back just a day late?

I travelled up on this ticket yes. And one day late is correct, was supposed to be 7pm train last night, but wanted to take 9am train the next morning instead....

Losty Dublin

alannm37 wrote: »

Hi All,

I got issued a penalty notice €100 (Fine) + €26 (Cost Of New Ticket) for supposedly travelling on an Non-Valid Ticket. To fully understand the situation, please read the email below of which I sent to the 'Revenue Protection Unit' stating everything that happened and let me know what you think the outcome should be, thanks!

-
Dear Reader,

I am just on on the train here and received a penalty notice for so called "Fare Evasion". My story is I have a ticket which I purchased for departing Farranfore going to Dublin Heuston on a Tuesday 28th October and returning yesterday 2nd October. Before departing this morning, I explained that I wished to take this train to 3 members of staff. Firstly, I went to the information desk, there was a woman there, and asked if it was okay to travel this morning or would I have to buy a new ticket, she directed me to go to the Ticket office and inquire there, so I did. At the ticket office I explained the same thing again, about if it was okay to travel this morning instead of yesterday on this ticket or would I have to get a new one, the woman there directed me to go to the ticket barrier and see what the person there would say, so I did. At the ticket barrier, I explained to the male there the same situation there, he stared at the ticket for a few seconds and he said only "okay" and then directed me through the barrier. Therefore, I was under the impression I was doing no wrong by going on the train as I made every possible effort to make sure I was given the go ahead. If asked to buy another ticket, that would have been no problem.

I was explained by the penalty issuer, there is an appeal process, I would like to do this and not pay a fine as I clearly did no wrong and did not intentionally travel without a valid ticket, I was clearly given the go ahead by a member of Irish Rail staff.

Regards,
(My Name)
-

It sounds as if you had an online ticket which are non transferrable without permission. You should have gotten the ticket office or checker to endorse or initial the ticket but you probably didn't think of doing this at the time.

If the checker gave you permission to board and travel then you may well have a case here, especially if the ticket office referred you to the checker. If you choose to send in an appeal, send it in via registered mail stating the date and time of travel along with your booking reference number and the full relevant details of what happened to you, including any conversations you had with staff members. Unless you had a family emergency to get to then there isn't much point in raising external details so be cautious about telling them a why you didn't travel as planned.

alannm37

Thanks for your reply! I am gonna write a letter to them later today. I had switched trains in the meantime and another ticket guy came and called the whole thing "madness", he said the other guy just had to call the station in Dublin. I think I'll get out of this because I too think its crazy as I didn't do anything wrong like.

GalwayGirl26

I've done this a couple of times; decided to stay at home an extra night/missed last train, and have been told each time that it was fine by the ticket inspector.
Definitely appeal and don't accept the fine; you did everything to clarify your situation and the staff led to you believe it was ok (which, in my experience, it usually is).

_Kaiser_

alanm37 wrote:

I travelled up on this ticket yet. And one day late is correct, was supposed to be 7pm train last night, but wanted to take 9am train the next morning instead....

You paid for a return ticket with the 2nd leg being on a particular date - it's not really their fault that you decided to stay an extra night. I wouldn't see any automatic expectation or entitlement to travel free the next day myself.

That said, I've taken intercity trains in this country less than maybe 5 times so maybe this "ah it'll be grand" thing IS normal in which case yes you could be considered as hard done by.

The problem here (and this one is IE's fault) is the inconsistency - it's either officially allowed, or it's not. This "make it up as we go"/"it depends who you get" shyte is something that REALLY bugs me about this country in general.

Mrs OBumble

You had a ticket for 2 October.

You traveled on 3 November.

You got caught.

Man / woman up and pay the fine.

corktina

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You had a ticket for 2 October.

You traveled on 3 November.

You got caught.

Man / woman up and pay the fine.

That's not the issue and it quite unfair. The OP asked three times if it was OK to travel on the ticket , what's a person to do if told three times it was OK?

joeguevara

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You had a ticket for 2 October.

You traveled on 3 November.

You got caught.

Man / woman up and pay the fine.

I think there must be a typo in the original OP. It looks like they OP returned on the 3rd November instead of the 2nd November. A day late not a month and a day late.

Sometimes it happens to me that I want to travel back earlier than expected and I pay an extra 10 euro. Sometimes they say there is no extra required payment.

Hard to know what to do. Appeal anyway but they may refuse it.

Gatling

corktina wrote: »

That's not the issue and it quite unfair. The OP asked three times if it was OK to travel on the ticket , what's a person to do if told three times it was OK?

But didn't have an actual Valid ticket to travel on the day can't have it both ways

Michael D Not Higgins

If it was an online ticket, according to their website you can change the train you travel on as long as you pay a €10 supplement at the ticket desk. Now, the ticket agent should have known this and you rightly have a case for appeal.

Edit: not sure if this carries over to the next day or if it can only be done on the day the ticket allows.

kopfan77

Gatling wrote: »

But didn't have an actual Valid ticket to travel on the day can't have it both ways

Which is why he asked three different employees of the company if he needed a new ticket or not (and as he explained would not have an issue with having to get one if told to do so) and was told that he was ok to travel.

Gatling

kopfan77 wrote: »

Which is why he asked three different employees of the company if he needed a new ticket or not (and as he explained would not have an issue with having to get one if told to do so) and was told that he was ok to travel.

The inspector thought otherwise

foggy_lad

Gatling wrote: »

The inspector thought otherwise

The person that allowed him board the train after looking at his ticket is the only person that matters here. By allowing him board the train he was given permission to travel on an expired/invalid ticket so can not subsequently be penalised for being on the train without a valid ticket.

kopfan77

Yes he did....thats not the OP's fault though as he was told the ticket was valid hence he should not be penalised as he is

Hilly Bill

corktina wrote: »

That's not the issue and it quite unfair. The OP asked three times if it was OK to travel on the ticket , what's a person to do if told three times it was OK?

Here's the thing, when the OP asks the first time he should have been told that the ticket was no longer valid and a new ticket must be bought before travel.
What we dont know if he was actually told this or he came up with the usual response( not the OP's usual response ),of that they dont have any money to by another ticket and after not taking a no for an answer he gets directed to the booking office who goes through the same response and his last resort is to plea with the chap on the barrier who may or not have told him that his ticket is not valid and he needs to get a new one and the no money thing comes up so after a bit of pleading he gets let through but told he could get fined if he gets caught. It happens everyday so only pointing out the possibilities here.
If the OP's ticket was not endorsed by any staff member then he has no chance of winning an appeal as proving that he was given permission to travel on an expired ticket will be difficult.
The OP knew his ticket had expired but im sure he was delighted to get on a train without paying for a new one yet when caught he then blames the staff???????
If he was told that he was grand and he could travel is one thing but the revenue staff wouldnt have know about it and would rightly issue a fine.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The person that allowed him board the train after looking at his ticket is the only person that matters here. By allowing him board the train he was given permission to travel on an expired/invalid ticket so can not subsequently be penalised for being on the train without a valid ticket.

He only let him through the barrier, the OP is the only one that decided to board a train with an expired ticket. I agree that he shouldnt have been allowed through the barrier in the first place .

Hilly Bill

kopfan77 wrote: »

Yes he did....thats not the OP's fault though as he was told the ticket was valid hence he should not be penalised as he is

How could he have been told the ticket was valid when it had expired the day before? Saying " your man said it was ok" is not a good defence unless you have proof to back up that you had permission to travel.

Alf Veedersane

The OP is in the wrong as the ticket was expired. The IR employees that enabled him to get on the train are also in the wrong but given that the only absolutes are that he was on the train with an invalid ticket, IR are still within their rights to look for the penalty.

Not that I don't think they should be lenient under the circumstances but whether or not they are is at their discretion.

kopfan77

The amount of pedantry here is nuts....only in Ireland!!

It says a lot when you ask the question of 3 separate employees of a company if a ticket is valid (and lets bear in mind that the OP says he wouldnt have had a problem buying a new ticket if he was told by any of them that it wasnt valid!), and the person at the barrier...whos responsibility is to "check the tickets"....says he is ok to travel with same ticket...and yet the OP is at fault!!

The ticket is either valid or it isnt....if it isnt then the OP should have been told at the barrier, sorry mate, ticket isnt valid, go back a buy a new ticket. The inconsistency of the company here is the problem

And while I personally feel that the OP should not be penalised, I also realise that his appeal will likely be fruitless due to the same inconsistencies that I already mentioned with the company.

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

He only let him through the barrier, the OP is the only one that decided to board a train with an expired ticket. I agree that he shouldnt have been allowed through the barrier in the first place .

The word in red in the original post below is what gives the op the permission of an authorised person which is required to travel with their invalid ticket!

By allowing anyone through the barrier this man is giving those people permission to board their trains and travel even if they have an expired/invalid ticket or even no ticket at all!

The relevant byelaws and conditions of carriage have been posted on this forum many many times in the past and are easy for all to find.

alannm37 wrote: »

Hi All,

I got issued a penalty notice €100 (Fine) + €26 (Cost Of New Ticket) for supposedly travelling on an Non-Valid Ticket. To fully understand the situation, please read the email below of which I sent to the 'Revenue Protection Unit' stating everything that happened and let me know what you think the outcome should be, thanks!

-
Dear Reader,

I am just on on the train here and received a penalty notice for so called "Fare Evasion". My story is I have a ticket which I purchased for departing Farranfore going to Dublin Heuston on a Tuesday 28th October and returning yesterday 2nd October. Before departing this morning, I explained that I wished to take this train to 3 members of staff. Firstly, I went to the information desk, there was a woman there, and asked if it was okay to travel this morning or would I have to buy a new ticket, she directed me to go to the Ticket office and inquire there, so I did. At the ticket office I explained the same thing again, about if it was okay to travel this morning instead of yesterday on this ticket or would I have to get a new one, the woman there directed me to go to the ticket barrier and see what the person there would say, so I did. At the ticket barrier, I explained to the male there the same situation there, he stared at the ticket for a few seconds and he said only "okay" and then directed me through the barrier. Therefore, I was under the impression I was doing no wrong by going on the train as I made every possible effort to make sure I was given the go ahead. If asked to buy another ticket, that would have been no problem.

I was explained by the penalty issuer, there is an appeal process, I would like to do this and not pay a fine as I clearly did no wrong and did not intentionally travel without a valid ticket, I was clearly given the go ahead by a member of Irish Rail staff.

Regards,
(My Name)
-

Hilly Bill

kopfan77 wrote: »

The amount of pedantry here is nuts....only in Ireland!!

It says a lot when you ask the question of 3 separate employees of a company if a ticket is valid (and lets bear in mind that the OP says he wouldnt have had a problem buying a new ticket if he was told by any of them that it wasnt valid!), and the person at the barrier...whos responsibility is to "check the tickets"....says he is ok to travel with same ticket...and yet the OP is at fault!!

The ticket is either valid or it isnt....if it isnt then the OP should have been told at the barrier, sorry mate, ticket isnt valid, go back a buy a new ticket. The inconsistency of the company here is the problem

And while I personally feel that the OP should not be penalised, I also realise that his appeal will likely be fruitless due to the same inconsistencies that I already mentioned with the company.

It also says a lot if you have to ask if a ticket is still valid even though you know you were supposed to travel the day before. Of course the OP knew the ticket wasnt valid and i would be confident that he was told that as well and its a case of the OP chancing their arm to save buying a new one.
Unless his ticket was endorsed by someone and signed and dated then i cant see the OP being successful here.

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

The word in red in the original post below is what gives the op the permission of an authorised person which is required to travel with their invalid ticket!

By allowing anyone through the barrier this man is giving those people permission to board their trains and travel even if they have an expired/invalid ticket or even no ticket at all!

The relevant byelaws and conditions of carriage have been posted on this forum many many times in the past and are easy for all to find.

Like i said, "your man said it was ok" is no proof at all.

Alf Veedersane

While I do have sympathy for the OP, the inspector on the train doesn't know if some chap at the barrier has given the ok. Alll he knows is the OP had an invalid ticket. You'd have hoped he wouldn't be a boll*x about it and that the worst-case scenario would the €10 surcharge to change it.

But it was still an invalid ticket that it was presented so they're not in the wrong.

But if it was me, I'd be disgusted. I still haven't forgiven the pr*ck in Cork for making me pay the €10 to change a ticket to come back to Dublin earlier in the day on a half empty train and that was 2 years ago.

kingtut

You left on the 28th October and returned on 2nd October.
If you are a time traveller why didn't you go back a bit further? :eek:

kopfan77

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Like i said, "your man said it was ok" is no proof at all.

No argument on that....totally agree that OP has no proof and as such appeal will not make any difference to outcome......BUT

The issue is still the fact that he was told that he was ok!!

Anywho...lesson to be learned is dont trust the IE employees to do their job lol

corktina

I'm sorry, but not everyone is an expert on ticket law. If you ask an IE employee (3 in this case) "Is it OK if I travel on this ticket today?" and they say it is...then it is (imo). How are you supposed to know, if not told, that there is another system in place you should be following unless they tell you?

IE staff fell down on the job creating this situation. We should be asking "Why?"