What is the typical Irish Family? Britain = Two single mothers, one heavily pregnant.

RobertKK

A normal family use to have 2.8 children, it is probably 1 and a bit of a child now.

btw I think the nuclear family is the optimum situation for a child, a male and female role model. For a majority I would guess their parents are the highest ranked role models.
We all know this isn't always possible in all cases and there are many types of families.

Wibbs

Nodin wrote: »

Families were always thus, its just out in the open now.

Yes and no, mostly no. Throughout history and culture the man/woman/kids "family" was the norm by a goodly margin. There were variables of course like polygamy and the like and there was often more a community involvement in child rearing, but single parent families were nearly always due to the death of one of the partners, so the "traditional" family was and remains the norm for the vast majority of cultures even today. That is not to say other models can work and work well of course. That can depend on culture too. EG US figures show significant differences in education and crime between single parent setups compared to dual parent setups(inc gay partnerships). I suspect their lack of a welfare state and social protection like in the EU would have a large effect on that. It make for more single parent families on or below the serious poverty line which is likely the bigger selective negative pressure.




I do recall reading of stats that seemed to suggest notable differences between single parent families where the parent was a widow/widower and families where the absent parent was alive but not involved on a daily live in basis, which was interesting.

Nodin

Lapin wrote: »

And where in either of those comments does it suggest that I haven't 'come to terms' with any other type of arrangement?
.

The general tone.

Lapin wrote: »

It was a personal smart arsed remark and there is no place for that crap here.

I think you're tilting at windmills there, tbh

Nodin

Wibbs wrote: »

Yes and (.................)ative pressure.




I do recall reading of stats that seemed to suggest notable differences between single parent families where the parent was a widow/widower and families where the absent parent was alive but not involved on a daily live in basis, which was interesting.

I didn't mean to suggest that such families were the norm, or ever had been. More that they had always existed.

SEPT 23 1989

Ideally a family should always have a strong male role model but please don't put down a young one trying to bring up a kid on 220 a week

Lapin

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Ideally a family should always have a strong male role model but please don't put down a young one trying to bring up a kid on 220 a week

No one doing that here.

RayM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Ideally a family should always have a strong male role model but please don't put down a young one trying to bring up a kid on 220 a week

What constitutes a 'strong male role model'? Why is a strong male role model specifically important, rather than just a strong, decent role model, regardless of gender?

SparkySpitfire

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Thats all very nice to say but its not actually a sculpture of an immediate family circle though is it? This isn't a sculpture of a Lesbian couple, from my take of the article its of people who support each other but aren't attached in anyway, therefore its valid to wonder, why is there the absence of the adult male from the image?
Edit:They are immediate family being sisters but not a couple, but that begs the question, brothers, uncles, fathers (both their own and the childrens)

Most likely because there aren't any around? Fathers scarpered/unknown, grandfathers dead, and brothers have their own families? This isn't a representation of a typical family as Srameen has said, it's a picture of a "real" family, and it is indeed that.

Any chance of a link for curiosities sake, I can understand why this could be the case but I'd be curious how they would measure "negative influence"

I think it's in a book by McCullogh on Mountjoy prisoners. It was very interesting indeed!

catallus

This is why we should allow marriage to more than one person, it makes sense.

nokia69

RayM wrote: »

What constitutes a 'strong male role model'? Why is a strong male role model specifically important, rather than just a strong, decent role model, regardless of gender?

because its easier to raise children with a good father, at a certain age young males won't listen to women, thats why mothers will sometimes say "wait till your father gets home"

single parent familes are not a good idea, thats the simple truth, but the truth is not always popular

RDM_83 again

catallus wrote: »

This is why we should allow marriage to more than one person, it makes sense.

I think saying this when its two sisters involved 8n making up the family might raise a few eyebrows

RayM

nokia69 wrote: »

because its easier to raise children with a good father, at a certain age young males won't listen to women, thats why mothers will sometimes say "wait till your father gets home"

single parent familes are not a good idea, thats the simple truth, but the truth is not always popular

That's hardly a universal truth.

Nodin

nokia69 wrote: »

because its easier to raise children with a good father, at a certain age young males won't listen to women, thats why mothers will sometimes say "wait till your father gets home"

single parent familes are not a good idea, thats the simple truth, but the truth is not always popular

At a certain age, young lads won't listen to anyone.

nokia69

Nodin wrote: »

At a certain age, young lads won't listen to anyone.

if they think there is a good chance of a kick up the arse they will listen

eviltwin

nokia69 wrote: »

because its easier to raise children with a good father, at a certain age young males won't listen to women, thats why mothers will sometimes say "wait till your father gets home"

single parent familes are not a good idea, thats the simple truth, but the truth is not always popular

If they are raised properly they will. There are many men from single parent families who didn't disrespect their mothers just as there are young men - and women - in two parent families who don't give a toss about their parents.

Giblet

A regular family is me killing weaker males and either impregnating or trying to impregnant as many women as possible (after orgasm I will retire allowing other men the opportunity), and abandoning them all so I can do it again and again before I'm killed by a superior male hope hth.

RayM

nokia69 wrote: »

if they think there is a good chance of a kick up the arse they will listen

So you're basically saying that the threat of violence is a good way of making children 'listen'? If that was true, it would probably be a good argument against 'strong male role models'.

nokia69

RayM wrote: »

So you're basically saying that the threat of violence is a good way of making children 'listen'? If that was true, it would probably be a good argument against 'strong male role models'.

I'm not sure if its the threat of violence exactly, but it seems that young children behave better around their fathers, just my observation

my mother would sometimes have to use the wooden spoon but my father just had to say stop

Radly

nokia69 wrote: »

I'm not sure if its the threat of violence exactly, but it seems that young children behave better around their fathers, just my observation

my mother would sometimes have to use the wooden spoon but my father just had to say stop

Me too. But I think the stopping at stop for me was due to fear of something worse than the wooden spoon. The spoon was always a puzzle for me, protect ass, protect hands, protect ass etc

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Lapin wrote: »

Do you have an opinion on the post or did you just come here to misquote me?

Yes. My opinion was that it was a real family and not, as you said, a typical or average family representation.

It's actually a very fine piece of sculpture though.

RDM_83 again

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

Most likely because there aren't any around? Fathers scarpered/unknown, grandfathers dead, and brothers have their own families? This isn't a representation of a typical family as Srameen has said, it's a picture of a "real" family, and it is indeed that.

This a piece of public and publicly funded art, its not simply enough to say "its a real family" and leave it at that, this pieces context and message are open to examination.
You could put up a picture of an overweight woman in a tracksuit with a can of beer in one hand with a fag hanging out of her mouth slapping her wailing child and justify it as it represents a real family (this example is loaded with class stereotypes but hey its real) and I'd bet you wouldn't be saying since its a real it doesn't matter.

Like any piece of art we see different things. I see the absence of the male or father in family life and as a role-model something that is in an issue in the UK today, you don't.
Its like a woman noticing that all the sports people in a magazine spread are men and no women, I might be oblivious to this but does it make the criticism any less valid.
I'd like to pull up two of your other points, (1) You mention the role of teachers serving as role-models, do you think a teacher who is limited simply to one setting and for fairly short period of time can actually serve as a real model, additionally its likely till these kids reach 2nd level the vast majority of their teachers will be woman (2) Why do you presume the fathers are "scarpered/unknown", isn't that a very judgmental view point to jump too.

SparkySpitfire

RDM_83 again wrote: »

This a piece of public and publicly funded art, its not simply enough to say "its a real family" and leave it at that, this pieces context and message are open to examination.
You could put up a picture of an overweight woman in a tracksuit with a can of beer in one hand with a fag hanging out of her mouth slapping her wailing child and justify it as it represents a real family (this example is loaded with class stereotypes but hey its real) and I'd bet you wouldn't be saying since its a real it doesn't matter.

Like any piece of art we see different things. I see the absence of the male or father in family life and as a role-model something that is in an issue in the UK today, you don't.
Its like a woman noticing that all the sports people in a magazine spread are men and no women, I might be oblivious to this but does it make the criticism any less valid.
I'd like to pull up two of your other points, (1) You mention the role of teachers serving as role-models, do you think a teacher who is limited simply to one setting and for fairly short period of time can actually serve as a real model, additionally its likely till these kids reach 2nd level the vast majority of their teachers will be woman (2) Why do you presume the fathers are "scarpered/unknown", isn't that a very judgmental view point to jump too.

I actually don't get what point you're trying to get across with the other hypothetical example? It would also be a representation of a real family. An uncommon one, but I don't doubt such a thing exists.

It's a piece of art, it's meant to make you think; I think it's surely done its job here! I don't really get the sports magazine analogy. It's not something that would ruffle my feathers anyway.

1. Yes, I do. Having experienced it myself. Some people, no matter how long they're in your life, can make a really lasting impact whether positive or negative. I've definitely found a role model in at least one teacher in my time at school, I still think about her today in certain situations.

2. It wasn't a presumption it was one of a myriad of possibilities. You asked why, I gave some examples seeing as you weren't bothered to pluck any out of the air yourself to a fairly straightforward question. Maybe they died? But then you might have said that was a morbid conclusion to jump to. :rolleyes:

Recondite49

My family started out as small and nuclear.

Then my Mum cheated on my Dad, left him for another man, and remarried.

Dad remarried twice, then divorced. Now he's in a Civil Partnership with another man.

My brother and I feel that our family is as valid as it always was.

Is there an objective standard against which we should measure the moral worth of the family unit in any case? I thought we'd moved beyond that era.

Incidentally a shout out to any fellow Brummies on boards - alroite mates? :-D

Ave Sodalis

nokia69 wrote: »

because its easier to raise children with a good father, at a certain age young males won't listen to women, thats why mothers will sometimes say "wait till your father gets home"

single parent familes are not a good idea, thats the simple truth, but the truth is not always popular

Not a good idea? Have you ever seen what happens when a child comes out of an abusive family environment because of the idea that single parents aren't a good idea? Have you ever seen a child from a dysfunctional family? Single parents are a great idea when the alternative is abuse, witnessing abuse or a serious lack of love between parents.

nokia69

sup_dude wrote: »

Not a good idea? Have you ever seen what happens when a child comes out of an abusive family environment because of the idea that single parents aren't a good idea? Have you ever seen a child from a dysfunctional family? Single parents are a great idea when the alternative is abuse, witnessing abuse or a serious lack of love between parents.

a stable 2 parent family is better than a stable 1 parent family

I know its controversial but thats all I'm saying

SparkySpitfire

nokia69 wrote: »

a stable 2 parent family is better than a stable 1 parent family

I know its controversial but thats all I'm saying

Well, you're entitled to your opinion.

bodice ripper

nokia69 wrote: »

a stable 2 parent family is better than a stable 1 parent family

I know its controversial but thats all I'm saying

yeah, I am willing to bet that you don't think a stable 2 parent family with two men is better than a single parent affair...

eviltwin

nokia69 wrote: »

a stable 2 parent family is better than a stable 1 parent family

I know its controversial but thats all I'm saying

I agree but its one of those things you can't say without people assuming you are anti lone parents. I know plenty of lone parents doing an amazing job but even they would say they wish they had a partner. Its not just the male/female influence, its having a person there to take over and give you a break when you need it. Parenting is hard work when you have a partner, its a tough slog when its just you trying to do it all on your own. A happy, relaxed person who has time off to do their own thing is a much better parent than one who is trying to do it all by themselves.

RDM_83 again

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

I actually don't get what point you're trying to get across with the other hypothetical example? It would also be a representation of a real family. An uncommon one, but I don't doubt such a thing exists.

It's a piece of art, it's meant to make you think; I think it's surely done its job here![/QUOTE]

My point is that this family is more than just a "real family", its a real family with a symbolic message.

Yes it made me think, looking at it initially I'd presume its of a lesbian couple, knowing the context I think "where are the men in this picture".

I'm not arguing that non traditional families are inherently worse, I'm saying that in a culture where the absent fathers and the lack of role-models for young men/boys is an issue, the absence of the male presence in a piece of public art like this says a lot more than just look at the happy kids in that statue.

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

I don't really get the sports magazine analogy. It's not something that would ruffle my feathers anyway.

So you've never came across people noticing an absence of media role-models of a gender and considering it a problem?

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

1. Yes, I do. Having experienced it myself. Some people, no matter how long they're in your life, can make a really lasting impact whether positive or negative. I've definitely found a role model in at least one teacher in my time at school, I still think about her today in certain situations.

They can make an impact in an intellectual/educational sense but there is a massive amount of life that they can't and shouldn't have to serve as a role-model for.
Your ignoring the part about the massive gender imbalance in primary school teachers though?

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

2. It wasn't a presumption it was one of a myriad of possibilities. You asked why, I gave some examples seeing as you weren't bothered to pluck any out of the air yourself to a fairly straightforward question. Maybe they died? But then you might have said that was a morbid conclusion to jump to. :rolleyes:

Well I'd consider that maybe they have some sort of visitation rights, a father absent from the primary home doesn't mean they don't exist.

SparkySpitfire

My point is that this family is more than just a "real family", its a real family with a symbolic message.

Well, I think everyone will take something different from it. Your view is no less valid than mine and I daresay we'll have to agree to disagree.
Yes it made me think, looking at it initially I'd presume its of a lesbian couple, knowing the context I think "where are the men in this picture".

So you've never came across people noticing an absence of media role-models of a gender and considering it a problem?

Yes, but I don't always consider it a problem myself depending on the issue.

They can make an impact in an intellectual/educational sense but there is a massive amount of life that they can't and shouldn't have to serve as a role-model for.
Your ignoring the part about the massive gender imbalance in primary school teachers though?

You're being tiresomely argumentative here. This is my anecdotal experience you can't disprove it, and frankly, I don't care what you have to say about it.

Well I'd consider that maybe they have some sort of visitation rights, a father absent from the primary home doesn't mean they don't exist.

Yes that's one option also.

I'm done with this talking in circles. We don't agree and I don't want to waste anymore time on a pointless debate.