Say a prayer for me now, don't save it until the morning after.

Orion

robindch wrote: »

My 11 year old daughter has an as-yet unexplained problem with her legs. Good days and bad days - the bad days have become so frequent and severe that we've bought her a wheelchair so that she's at least mobile when she can't walk. She's a very active child so you can imagine that neighbours, friends, etc were shocked to see her in a wheelchair. But I'm telling you the next person who says "she's in our prayers" is going to get a punch right in the face and told in no uncertain terms - "I don't want your fcuking prayers - I want a fcuking doctor who can figure out what is wrong with her legs! Can you arrange that?"

Mod: This is a spin off thread from a discussion that began in the Funny's of religion thread.

shruikan2553

Orion wrote: »

My 11 year old daughter has an as-yet unexplained problem with her legs. Good days and bad days - the bad days have become so frequent and severe that we've bought her a wheelchair so that she's at least mobile when she can't walk. She's a very active child so you can imagine that neighbours, friends, etc were shocked to see her in a wheelchair. But I'm telling you the next person who says "she's in our prayers" is going to get a punch right in the face and told in no uncertain terms - "I don't want your fcuking prayers - I want a fcuking doctor who can figure out what is wrong with her legs! Can you arrange that?"

I always found it odd. People who say this rarely even pray! Its like feeling like you have done something without doing anything. You're going into the hospital? I could offer to check on the cats but that requires effort, instead I'll pray for you.

Standman

Orion wrote: »

My 11 year old daughter has an as-yet unexplained problem with her legs. Good days and bad days - the bad days have become so frequent and severe that we've bought her a wheelchair so that she's at least mobile when she can't walk. She's a very active child so you can imagine that neighbours, friends, etc were shocked to see her in a wheelchair. But I'm telling you the next person who says "she's in our prayers" is going to get a punch right in the face and told in no uncertain terms - "I don't want your fcuking prayers - I want a fcuking doctor who can figure out what is wrong with her legs! Can you arrange that?"

Sorry to hear about your kid, hope it's nothing too serious. Do you not think their heart is in the right place though? It's just another form of showing sympathy for your situation IMO.

CramCycle

Standman wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your kid, hope it's nothing too serious. Do you not think their heart is in the right place though? It's just another form of showing sympathy for your situation IMO.

Not sure about Orion but I just find it annoying, and slightly insulting. While in no way similar to Orions situation, I was having a rough time a few years ago, I had several people call round for a chat, several who asked what could they do, but there were a few who said "your in my prayers" or "I'll say a prayer for you" and nothing else. Now whether they said a prayer for me or not, was irrelevant, if they really wanted to, fair enough but I don't need to hear about it, that's not what I needed, what I needed was a friend. If they were not able to be that or be there, fair enough, friends can't always be there, I have been a **** enough one in the past too people, but just give your condolences, offer your sympathy, show your humanity, say sorry, but don't f*ckin look me in the eye, with a smile on your face and offer to say a prayer that I will never hear.

It's an insult to our friendship and to my view of their decency.

smacl

When someone says they'll pray for you, I tend to think that they're actually doing it for themselves. Showing off what good pals they are with the almighty, and what a basically decent skin they really are. Its a cop out of doing anything more tangible, and an escape from a situation that perhaps needs a bit more than that. Pretending to do something while actually doing nothing.

magicbastarder

all it means is that they're concerned for you and are wishing you well. it's an irish way of saying so.
i don't see any reason to view it as any more than that.

eviltwin

I don't take offence to it either, I think sometimes people feel helpless and not great with words and its something to say. It shows they are thinking of you.

Shrap

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't take offence to it either, I think sometimes people feel helpless and not great with words and its something to say. It shows they are thinking of you.

I agree with this. "You'll be in my prayers" is the same as saying "you're in my thoughts". When there's little or nothing someone can do in an awful situation, people want you to know that they are thinking of you and that your troubles are on their mind. It is an indication of empathy/sympathy, but it is the kind of platitude that can get your back right up if you're feeling helpless about a situation yourself. Like "what's the effing use of thinking about it? Somebody do something!"

I get a lot of "Ah, it'll be fine" and "he'll grow out of it" about my son and it also makes me want to punch someone even though I know they're only saying it cos they can't think of anything helpful. Platitudes are only helpful to the person saying them, in my opinion.

Cabaal

Standman wrote: »

Sorry to hear about your kid, hope it's nothing too serious. Do you not think their heart is in the right place though? It's just another form of showing sympathy for your situation IMO.

Is it though,?
It's as meaningful as saying you'll watch modern family later for the person

I'd rather some one says, that I'll be in their thoughts later.... Rather then telling me they are going to tell their powerless invisible friend about me later

One eyed Jack

Cabaal wrote: »

Is it though,?
It's as meaningful as saying you'll watch modern family later for the person

I'd rather some one says, that I'll be in their thoughts later.... Rather then telling me they are going to tell their powerless invisible friend about me later

I think the important thing here is perception - if it's a close personal friend that says it, knowing you're an atheist, then at best it's merely thoughtless, at worst it's simply crass and best ignored.

I have mobility issues where sometimes I would need assistance, and a complete stranger after helping me recently said to me "I'll pray for you". Their prayers weren't going to do a whole pile for me, but I appreciated the sentiment all the same.

When you might constantly hear it though, I can understand how that would eventually get irritating, and even more so if it's the same person every time. It might be an idea then to politely inform them that you don't share their beliefs and while you appreciate the thought, it doesn't mean the same for you as it does for them.

robindch

Stella Virgo has been booted from A+A permanently for posting what I think is the most offensive post I've read in ten-odd years on boards. And I will be recommending an immediate, permanent site-ban for the same user.

Many thanks to the people who reported this so quickly so that it could be dealt with quickly.

lazygal

I feel the same way when people refer to "heaven needing another angel" tripe. Which usually appears on Facebook after a tragedy.

magicbastarder

Cabaal wrote: »

Is it though,?
It's as meaningful as saying you'll watch modern family later for the person

from whose perspective, though?
they mean well. that's what counts.

One eyed Jack

magicbastarder wrote: »

from whose perspective, though?
they mean well. that's what counts.

It's not the only thing that counts though, otherwise their sentiments are truly meaningless as they're not saying it with any respect towards the other person, and that's when it can be perceived as nothing more than a patronising platitude.

PopePalpatine

robindch wrote: »

Stella Virgo has been booted from A+A permanently for posting what I think is the most offensive post I've read in ten-odd years on boards. And I will be recommending an immediate, permanent site-ban for the same user.

Many thanks to the people who reported this so quickly so that it could be dealt with quickly.

Is it wrong that I'm curious as to what they posted?

branie2

Would you be offended if your daughter was offered a place on a pilgrimage to Lourdes?

CramCycle

branie2 wrote: »

Would you be offended if your daughter was offered a place on a pilgrimage to Lourdes?

No, nice to be offered, then she can decide herself whether to go or not.

branie2

Well, if she was offered a place, and does decide to go, she'd be very welcome at Easter in one of the IHCPT groups :-)

blindside88

Cabaal wrote: »

Is it though,?
It's as meaningful as saying you'll watch modern family later for the person

I'd rather some one says, that I'll be in their thoughts later.... Rather then telling me they are going to tell their powerless invisible friend about me later

This is what really gets in people's craw about atheists to be honest. I'm by no means religious but saying "rather than telling me they are going to tell their powerless invisible friend about me" is surely insulting to a large portion of the population. Someone saying they'll pray for you is merely an irish saying and isn't offensive at all. You may not believe in God but most people won't know that.

I was raised Roman Catholic and if a Muslim said they would pray to Muhammad for me I would just accept their well wishes and not come out with "I don't believe in your false prophet and invisible friend". Why does it insult you so much?

Orion

Firstly I'd like to point out that this was originally posted in the funny Ha Ha thread so wasn't meant to be taken entirely seriously. Moving it to its own thread changes the point somewhat.

But as to the sentiment I do find it amusing that people who know that I am an atheist think that it actually means something to me that they will pray for my daughter. I do smile and say thanks rather than punch them in the face of course but the sarcastic voice in my head is also saying "can you also ask Santa to bring a remedy".

As for the deleted comment I'd expect a site ban for being a complete dick but I'm far from offended - trolls are best ignored than reacted to so if you're reading this nice try.

hdowney

orion Im so sorry to hear about your little lady genuinely wish there was something I could do.

as a Christian (Not going into it) I still believe in NOT saying to the person you'll pray. by all means do so if it is a belief of your but it doesnt help and possibly angers the person to hear depending how they feel that day.

blindside88

blindside88 wrote: »

This is what really gets in people's craw about atheists to be honest.

It's not about atheism; it's about sectarianism and fundamentalism, and about human weakness.

Regrettably there are a lot of people for whom the point is not to be different and to live with difference, but instead to find fault and to look down on and denigrate those who don't share our world view.

They are the sectarian ones, they are the fundamentalists; and religion hasn't a monopoly of shame in this regard. You'll find plenty of Catholics, Protestants or Muslims who fail the basic standards of decent human behaviour in this way. I think it would be naive to expect atheists to be any different in that regard.

Brian Shanahan

blindside88 wrote: »

This is what really gets in people's craw about atheists to be honest. I'm by no means religious but saying "rather than telling me they are going to tell their powerless invisible friend about me" is surely insulting to a large portion of the population. Someone saying they'll pray for you is merely an irish saying and isn't offensive at all. You may not believe in God but most people won't know that.

I was raised Roman Catholic and if a Muslim said they would pray to Muhammad for me I would just accept their well wishes and not come out with "I don't believe in your false prophet and invisible friend". Why does it insult you so much?

Saying "I'll pray for you" is all too often just a way of pretending to be seen to be doing something to help when you are too lazy and unconcerned to get off your rear and, you know, actually do something. It is the formulation of those who just don't give a damn yet are too worried about their reputation to actually come out and say it.

People who genuinely want to help others will verbalise their desire to help in concrete ways, either by offering their expertise or asking if there is anything they could do. Offering prayers does neither of these things.

So, the only reason any sensible thinking person would find any persons annoyance over the formulation "you'll be in my prayers" (and I'll tell you, I know quite a lot of christians, including members of religious orders, who are as annoyed, if not more so, as I am with it, because they are cognizant of the phrase's true meaning), would be that they've just been told that the person they are using the formula on has seen through their attempt at deception.

Kidchameleon

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

People who genuinely want to help others will verbalise their desire to help in concrete ways, either by offering their expertise or asking if there is anything they could do. Offering prayers does neither of these things.

A believer who says "I'll pray for you" is genuinely helping in their own mind. Praying to God for help or actively doing something are one and the same to a them.

The OP getting offended by a kind person doing their bit just beggars belief.

Orion

Doesn't "doing their bit" imply doing something to help? Sending telepathic ideas to some mythical being doesn't do jack sh!t. That aside nobody here is offended - amused is the most common feeling. Irritated sometimes - especially when it's people I know well who decide that a prayer will make me feel better despite my atheism. If they want to help "in their own mind" then they should keep it in their own mind. If they want to pray and it makes them feel better there's no need to tell me their doing it - unless the telling me is what makes them feel better in which case it's selfish on their part not mine.

MrPudding

Kidchameleon wrote: »

A believer who says "I'll pray for you" is genuinely helping in their own mind. Praying to God for help or actively doing something are one and the same to a them.

The OP getting offended by a kind person doing their bit just beggars belief.

Meh. It does more for the person offering to pray than the person they are praying for.

MrP

efb

Mam us into all that prayer stuff so I don't get offended as I know it's meant in earnest and she means well. When she was ill I bought her a mass bouquet as I knew it meant a lot to her. It is no skin off my nose- or am I being a bad atheist?

Delirium

Kidchameleon wrote: »

A believer who says "I'll pray for you" is genuinely helping in their own mind. Praying to God for help or actively doing something are one and the same to a them.

The OP getting offended by a kind person doing their bit just beggars belief.

I actually read it to mean that it's a number of people have said "I'll pray for you". It may be well meaning but it's not much use to the sick child. The OP is annoyed because it's an empty offer of help to a non-believer.

Anyone who has had a sick family member will understand how emotions can become frayed if the relatives health is poor over an extended period of time. A person could become annoyed over anything, so it's not outside the realm of possibility for a non-believer to become annoyed over people saying they'd offer prayers to "help".

I know I'd probably be annoyed in a similar position. I'd bite my tongue but wouldn't think twice about venting about it on the atheist + agnosticism forum should the mood take me.

So I don't think it's fair to take issue with the OP for being unreasonable ("beggars belief") considering they have a sick child. When are parents ever reasonable when their children are sick??

kylith

My mother occasionally says she's going to pray for me (in an 'I'm going to pray for you to a god I know you don't believe in, and there's nothing you can do to stop me, so :P' way). I just tell her to go ahead, if it makes her feel better about the situation.

Delirium

kylith wrote: »

My mother occasionally says she's going to pray for me (in an 'I'm going to pray for you to a god I know you don't believe in, and there's nothing you can do to stop me, so :P' way). I just tell her to go ahead, if it makes her feel better about the situation.

Dad does the same :pac:

CramCycle

SW wrote: »

Dad does the same :pac:

My dad goes to church every Sunday morning, one might say, religously. He then gets drunk at the funerals of close friends and declares, quite loudly, that there is no God as you would have to be insane to believe in such BS.

robindch

Kidchameleon wrote: »

The OP getting offended by a kind person doing their bit just beggars belief.

Perhaps some people just feel that if somebody wants to help in some difficult situation, well, perhaps they should offer some actual help instead of refusing to and going off and talking to themselves instead?

That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

That's a bit harsh! The Capuchin brothers on Bow Lane likely do a lot of talking to themselves, but in fairness they seem to know that you don't feed hungry homeless people by saying they'll pray for them (although they probably do that too...).

Actions speak louder than words. Simple fact.

robindch

Shrap wrote: »

That's a bit harsh!

It's hardly much sillier than the post it was replying to -- must go out and even my keel with some coffee

Clarification - I was thinking of Popette when I wrote that - frankly, everybody who has to work with her on anything is usually quite happy when she heads off on her own and does her thing, since it means everybody else can do the actual work without having to face unwanted sermonizing and various kinds of interference - see here.

Caffeine = good this morning

vibe666

when our son was four months old, he came down with the worst case of croup in a child so young that they said they had ever seen in temple street that left him on life support in the ICU for 5 days.

we had friends and family calling and asking how we were, coming to visit us and offering help etc. and even a few saying they'd pray for us, which didn't bother me at all really, until i found out that my mother and father in law had spent hours driving across the country to a man in the bog somewhere who "had the cure of the croup" and then for the entire week we were in the hospital (staying in the parent accommodation taking shifts) they never actually managed to find the time to drive the 40 minutes from their house to come and see us and see how we were doing.

Shrap

That's a mad story vibe! I mean, your parents in law clearly thought they were actually taking action and being as helpful as possible if they drove for hours to try and find a cure, even if it's one you'd have to believe in for it to work.

There must be a difference between someone who believes that the action of praying/sourcing woo based magic medicine IS doing something, and someone who offers a throwaway "You'll be in my prayers" as an acceptable Irish catch all phrase that gets them neatly out of feeling helpless, but is there any difference to the (notional) recipient?

Does it make a difference to you to know that they genuinely believed they were helping? I mean, compared to if they had not attempted to find a cure and still didn't show up to see you?

robindch

Shrap wrote: »

[...] a throwaway "You'll be in my prayers" as an acceptable Irish catch all phrase [...]

No point in getting worked up at that and as you say, it'll excuse at least some people from feeling helpless. But actually getting up out of their armchair, calling for masses to be said, paying for things, travelling around the countryside seeking out woomerchants, well, that kind of self-validation is not an acceptable substitute for actually helping out.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps some people just feel that if somebody wants to help in some difficult situation, well, perhaps they should offer some actual help instead of refusing to and going off and talking to themselves instead?

My Point is that, in their head, they ARE helping. You and I and everyone else in here believe differently, but as far as the person offering prayer is concerned, they are actually doing something.

robindch wrote: »

That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

How is somebody praying for a sick child "getting in the way"?

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

...that kind of self-validation is not an acceptable substitute for actually helping out.

Hmm. No, not acceptable for the "recipient", but it is valid to them if they don't in fact think it's a substitute for help but is actually help. No?

I'd be less offended by the woo-mongering if they believed their own woo. Although I'd be a bit disgusted that I would be then obliged to say "Thanks for trying to help", even if I was so burned out by what was going on that I would have to dig deep to offer them that reassurance*.

*Ok, nope. I see what you mean about self-validation. However, maybe a lot of people are more about that than actual selfless help, woo or no woo?

Shrap

Kidchameleon wrote: »

How is somebody praying for a sick child "getting in the way"?

I've just now come to the conclusion myself that it can get in the way of the parent's mental health! If you're required or obliged to say "thanks" for nothing, it could certainly feel like the last straw. A parent of a sick child should not be put in the position of having to validate or reassure someone else that their words are helpful.

seamus

Kidchameleon wrote: »

My Point is that, in their head, they ARE helping. You and I and everyone else in here believe differently, but as far as the person offering prayer is concerned, they are actually doing something.

In their head they are doing the absolute maximum that they are willing to do. Religious people even acknowledge that praying is not providing any practical assistance - hence why after a death the neighbours arrive around with platters of food rather than praying that platters of food will arrive.

Although people aren't aware of it, by saying that they'll pray for someone they're basically acknowledging that they're not willing to provide any practical assistance or put themselves out. It's basically "I'll be thinking of you". Uh, thanks for that. Any chance you might do me a favour and feed my cat while I'm in the hospital? "No, I don't like cats, but I'll be thinking about your cat".

How is somebody praying for a sick child "getting in the way"?

I think you misunderstood him. He's saying the kind of person who thinks that a prayer is "helping" in any meaningful way is likely to just get in the way if they try to provide real assistance.

Brian Shanahan

Kidchameleon wrote: »

A believer who says "I'll pray for you" is genuinely helping in their own mind.

No they are not. If a religious person truly wants to help others, they find some way of helping, saying a few words in private is not helping.

Praying for others is a form of posing, it is a way of seeming to help without going to the effort of trying to do something constryctive.

robindch

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Praying for others is a form of posing [...]

And praying in public, including telling people about it, is something that Jesus was quite unhappy with:

Matthew 6 wrote:

“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Kidchameleon

Shrap wrote: »

I've just now come to the conclusion myself that it can get in the way of the parent's mental health! If you're required or obliged to say "thanks" for nothing, it could certainly feel like the last straw. A parent of a sick child should not be put in the position of having to validate or reassure someone else that their words are helpful.

Yep saying a word that takes half a second could certainly push a person over the edge :rolleyes:

Kidchameleon

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

No they are not. If a religious person truly wants to help others, they find some way of helping, saying a few words in private is not helping.

Praying for others is a form of posing, it is a way of seeming to help without going to the effort of trying to do something constryctive.

How many people can practically help though? Should every person the OP bumps into do something practical to help? What should a person who cannot help in a practical way do? Is such a person an a**hole for not physically doing something?

CramCycle

Kidchameleon wrote: »

How many people can practically help though? Should every person the OP bumps into do something practical to help? What should a person who cannot help in a practical way do? Is such a person an a**hole for not physically doing something?

Of course not, but why not say " I am so sorry I can't help" or " there is nothing I can say". They can still pray. I would find the previous two phrases far more comforting, as it shows compassion and understanding in my view. Praying to my understanding was a private thing between the sayer and whoever they believe in.

Kidchameleon

robindch wrote: »

Perhaps some people just feel that if somebody wants to help in some difficult situation, well, perhaps they should offer some actual help instead of refusing to and going off and talking to themselves instead?

In fairness, the OP didn't give an entire transcript of the conversations being referred to, you cant just assume that no practical help was offered. Where did the OP mention that any person "refused" to actually help?

robindch wrote: »

That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

Please see post #41. Could you please clarify what you mean here? Specifically, how is a person offering to pray "getting in the way"?

Shrap

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Please see post #41. Could you please clarify what you mean here? Specifically, how is a person offering to pray "getting in the way"?

Jaysus wept, you're all over him like a rash over this aren't you? How is it you can't accept that he hadn't had his coffee and was thinking about Popette when he had a go at generalising? Did you not read post #34?

Kidchameleon

Performing a religious ceremony (gloves and all) at the persons bedside is certainly getting in the way. But were not talking about that in this thread. Were talking about a person saying "Ill pray for you". How is that "getting in the way"? People here seem to think its ok to say "I'm thinking of you" but have a problem with a person praying for them. Both sentiments have the same practical value. Its the religious aspect of the latter that's leaving a twang in peoples mouths.

Kidchameleon

CramCycle wrote: »

Of course not, but why not say " I am so sorry I can't help" or " there is nothing I can say". They can still pray. I would find the previous two phrases far more comforting, as it shows compassion and understanding in my view. Praying to my understanding was a private thing between the sayer and whoever they believe in.

How would saying either of these phrases show understanding? Unless you were to go around with a sticker on your forehead saying your atheist, I don't know how people are to know.

A friend of mine from Poland brought me back a "Polska" T-Shirt a few years ago. I had to stop wearing it because without fail, every day, a Polish person would approach me asking for directions or whatever, in Polish! Try it yourself someday, very amusing! The point is, weather you or the OP like it or not, we live in a Catholic country, people are just going to assume a sentence link "I'll pray for you" is appropriate. Someone with a bee in their bonnet would get offended or start a thread for a laugh about it. A more diverse person would politely accept their sentiments and think no more about it.

Shrap

Kidchameleon wrote: »

People here seem to think its ok to say "I'm thinking of you" but have a problem with a person praying for them. Both sentiments have the same practical value.

Well that's true, I think. Both sentiments do have the same practical value, but only one of them implies the speaker thinks that interceding with a supernatural power is practical help. "I'll pray for you" is calling on a supernatural power for assistance, and if that's the only assistance they can offer (notional), they'd be better off saying "I'll be thinking of you" as it's insulting to the recipient to suggest that they're actually helping.

Tah dah!