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Say a prayer for me now, don't save it until the morning after.

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24

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    #32
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The OP getting offended by a kind person doing their bit just beggars belief.
    Perhaps some people just feel that if somebody wants to help in some difficult situation, well, perhaps they should offer some actual help instead of refusing to and going off and talking to themselves instead?

    That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.


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    #33
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    robindch wrote: »
    That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

    That's a bit harsh! The Capuchin brothers on Bow Lane likely do a lot of talking to themselves, but in fairness they seem to know that you don't feed hungry homeless people by saying they'll pray for them (although they probably do that too...).

    Actions speak louder than words. Simple fact.


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    #34
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Shrap wrote: »
    That's a bit harsh!
    It's hardly much sillier than the post it was replying to -- must go out and even my keel with some coffee :)

    Clarification - I was thinking of Popette when I wrote that - frankly, everybody who has to work with her on anything is usually quite happy when she heads off on her own and does her thing, since it means everybody else can do the actual work without having to face unwanted sermonizing and various kinds of interference - see here.

    Caffeine = good this morning :o


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    #35
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    when our son was four months old, he came down with the worst case of croup in a child so young that they said they had ever seen in temple street that left him on life support in the ICU for 5 days.

    we had friends and family calling and asking how we were, coming to visit us and offering help etc. and even a few saying they'd pray for us, which didn't bother me at all really, until i found out that my mother and father in law had spent hours driving across the country to a man in the bog somewhere who "had the cure of the croup" and then for the entire week we were in the hospital (staying in the parent accommodation taking shifts) they never actually managed to find the time to drive the 40 minutes from their house to come and see us and see how we were doing.


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    #36
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    That's a mad story vibe! I mean, your parents in law clearly thought they were actually taking action and being as helpful as possible if they drove for hours to try and find a cure, even if it's one you'd have to believe in for it to work.

    There must be a difference between someone who believes that the action of praying/sourcing woo based magic medicine IS doing something, and someone who offers a throwaway "You'll be in my prayers" as an acceptable Irish catch all phrase that gets them neatly out of feeling helpless, but is there any difference to the (notional) recipient?

    Does it make a difference to you to know that they genuinely believed they were helping? I mean, compared to if they had not attempted to find a cure and still didn't show up to see you?


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    #37
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Shrap wrote: »
    [...] a throwaway "You'll be in my prayers" as an acceptable Irish catch all phrase [...]
    No point in getting worked up at that and as you say, it'll excuse at least some people from feeling helpless. But actually getting up out of their armchair, calling for masses to be said, paying for things, travelling around the countryside seeking out woomerchants, well, that kind of self-validation is not an acceptable substitute for actually helping out.


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    #38
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    robindch wrote: »
    Perhaps some people just feel that if somebody wants to help in some difficult situation, well, perhaps they should offer some actual help instead of refusing to and going off and talking to themselves instead?

    My Point is that, in their head, they ARE helping. You and I and everyone else in here believe differently, but as far as the person offering prayer is concerned, they are actually doing something.
    robindch wrote: »
    That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

    How is somebody praying for a sick child "getting in the way"?


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    #39
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    robindch wrote: »
    ...that kind of self-validation is not an acceptable substitute for actually helping out.

    Hmm. No, not acceptable for the "recipient", but it is valid to them if they don't in fact think it's a substitute for help but is actually help. No?

    I'd be less offended by the woo-mongering if they believed their own woo. Although I'd be a bit disgusted that I would be then obliged to say "Thanks for trying to help", even if I was so burned out by what was going on that I would have to dig deep to offer them that reassurance*.

    *Ok, nope. I see what you mean about self-validation. However, maybe a lot of people are more about that than actual selfless help, woo or no woo?


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    #40
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    How is somebody praying for a sick child "getting in the way"?

    I've just now come to the conclusion myself that it can get in the way of the parent's mental health! If you're required or obliged to say "thanks" for nothing, it could certainly feel like the last straw. A parent of a sick child should not be put in the position of having to validate or reassure someone else that their words are helpful.


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    #41
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    My Point is that, in their head, they ARE helping. You and I and everyone else in here believe differently, but as far as the person offering prayer is concerned, they are actually doing something.
    In their head they are doing the absolute maximum that they are willing to do. Religious people even acknowledge that praying is not providing any practical assistance - hence why after a death the neighbours arrive around with platters of food rather than praying that platters of food will arrive.

    Although people aren't aware of it, by saying that they'll pray for someone they're basically acknowledging that they're not willing to provide any practical assistance or put themselves out. It's basically "I'll be thinking of you". Uh, thanks for that. Any chance you might do me a favour and feed my cat while I'm in the hospital? "No, I don't like cats, but I'll be thinking about your cat".
    How is somebody praying for a sick child "getting in the way"?
    I think you misunderstood him. He's saying the kind of person who thinks that a prayer is "helping" in any meaningful way is likely to just get in the way if they try to provide real assistance.


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    #42
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    A believer who says "I'll pray for you" is genuinely helping in their own mind.

    No they are not. If a religious person truly wants to help others, they find some way of helping, saying a few words in private is not helping.

    Praying for others is a form of posing, it is a way of seeming to help without going to the effort of trying to do something constryctive.


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    #43
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Praying for others is a form of posing [...]
    And praying in public, including telling people about it, is something that Jesus was quite unhappy with:
    Matthew 6 wrote:
    “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

    “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.


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    #44
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Shrap wrote: »
    I've just now come to the conclusion myself that it can get in the way of the parent's mental health! If you're required or obliged to say "thanks" for nothing, it could certainly feel like the last straw. A parent of a sick child should not be put in the position of having to validate or reassure someone else that their words are helpful.

    Yep saying a word that takes half a second could certainly push a person over the edge :rolleyes:


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    #45
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    No they are not. If a religious person truly wants to help others, they find some way of helping, saying a few words in private is not helping.

    Praying for others is a form of posing, it is a way of seeming to help without going to the effort of trying to do something constryctive.

    How many people can practically help though? Should every person the OP bumps into do something practical to help? What should a person who cannot help in a practical way do? Is such a person an a**hole for not physically doing something?


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    #46
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,477 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    How many people can practically help though? Should every person the OP bumps into do something practical to help? What should a person who cannot help in a practical way do? Is such a person an a**hole for not physically doing something?

    Of course not, but why not say " I am so sorry I can't help" or " there is nothing I can say". They can still pray. I would find the previous two phrases far more comforting, as it shows compassion and understanding in my view. Praying to my understanding was a private thing between the sayer and whoever they believe in.


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    #47
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    robindch wrote: »
    Perhaps some people just feel that if somebody wants to help in some difficult situation, well, perhaps they should offer some actual help instead of refusing to and going off and talking to themselves instead?

    In fairness, the OP didn't give an entire transcript of the conversations being referred to, you cant just assume that no practical help was offered. Where did the OP mention that any person "refused" to actually help?
    robindch wrote: »
    That said, the kind of help offered by people who think that talking to themselves is helpful, is - frankly - unlikely to be helpful in the first place. So maybe it's best that these good citizens excuse themselves from actually doing something and just getting in the way of people who are helping.

    Please see post #41. Could you please clarify what you mean here? Specifically, how is a person offering to pray "getting in the way"?


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    #48
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Please see post #41. Could you please clarify what you mean here? Specifically, how is a person offering to pray "getting in the way"?

    Jaysus wept, you're all over him like a rash over this aren't you? How is it you can't accept that he hadn't had his coffee and was thinking about Popette when he had a go at generalising? Did you not read post #34?


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    #49
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Performing a religious ceremony (gloves and all) at the persons bedside is certainly getting in the way. But were not talking about that in this thread. Were talking about a person saying "Ill pray for you". How is that "getting in the way"? People here seem to think its ok to say "I'm thinking of you" but have a problem with a person praying for them. Both sentiments have the same practical value. Its the religious aspect of the latter that's leaving a twang in peoples mouths.


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    #50
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Of course not, but why not say " I am so sorry I can't help" or " there is nothing I can say". They can still pray. I would find the previous two phrases far more comforting, as it shows compassion and understanding in my view. Praying to my understanding was a private thing between the sayer and whoever they believe in.

    How would saying either of these phrases show understanding? Unless you were to go around with a sticker on your forehead saying your atheist, I don't know how people are to know.

    A friend of mine from Poland brought me back a "Polska" T-Shirt a few years ago. I had to stop wearing it because without fail, every day, a Polish person would approach me asking for directions or whatever, in Polish! Try it yourself someday, very amusing! The point is, weather you or the OP like it or not, we live in a Catholic country, people are just going to assume a sentence link "I'll pray for you" is appropriate. Someone with a bee in their bonnet would get offended or start a thread for a laugh about it. A more diverse person would politely accept their sentiments and think no more about it.


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    #51
    Shrap
    Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    People here seem to think its ok to say "I'm thinking of you" but have a problem with a person praying for them. Both sentiments have the same practical value.

    Well that's true, I think. Both sentiments do have the same practical value, but only one of them implies the speaker thinks that interceding with a supernatural power is practical help. "I'll pray for you" is calling on a supernatural power for assistance, and if that's the only assistance they can offer (notional), they'd be better off saying "I'll be thinking of you" as it's insulting to the recipient to suggest that they're actually helping.

    Tah dah!


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    #52
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Vatican City is the only catholic country AFAIK. Ireland is a country with catholics, not a catholic country.


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    #53
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    OP, sorry to read about your child. i hope something can be done to help her.

    regarding the 'i'll pray for you' comments. they can be just that, comments, probably with no substance for a lot of people.
    maybe they don't realise you're not interested in prayer. maybe they'd say it if you had just bought a lottery ticket. who knows *sigh*

    try to take it in the spirit it's meant from mostly good people.


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    #54
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    lazygal wrote: »
    Vatican City is the only catholic country AFAIK. Ireland is a country with catholics, not a catholic country.

    You and everyone else here know what I mean.


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    #55
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Shrap wrote: »
    Well that's true, I think. Both sentiments do have the same practical value, but only one of them implies the speaker thinks that interceding with a supernatural power is practical help. "I'll pray for you" is calling on a supernatural power for assistance, and if that's the only assistance they can offer (notional), they'd be better off saying "I'll be thinking of you" as it's insulting to the recipient to suggest that they're actually helping.

    Tah dah!

    Nail on the head there. A beleiver praying for you is, in their own way, doing as much as another person who is "thinking of you".

    Try not to look at the world so one dimensionally. Some people have different belief's, deal with it.


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    #56
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Nail on the head there. A beleiver praying for you is, in their own way, doing as much as another person who is "thinking of you".

    Try not to look at the world so one dimensionally. Some people have different belief's, deal with it.

    says the person bemoaning people not reacting positively to "I'll pray for your child".

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #57
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    lazygal wrote: »
    Vatican City is the only catholic country AFAIK.
    Off-topic, but a lot of people would disagree that the Vatican constitutes a "country" - it's more a "few city blocks which demonstrate some of the characteristics of a state". While it does have passports and it hosts embassies and has embassies of its own, it does not have a permanent citizenry (you can't be born a citizen of the Vatican), it has no army, in the UN, it has the status of "observer" rather "state", it has no legislature to speak of, its police and law are administered by Rome. And so on.


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    #58
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Shocking day out...thanks be to god!


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    #59
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    Off-topic, but a lot of people would disagree that the Vatican constitutes a "country" - it's more a "few city blocks which demonstrate some of the characteristics of a state". While it does have passports and it hosts embassies and has embassies of its own, it does not have a permanent citizenry (you can't be born a citizen of the Vatican), it has no army, in the UN, it has the status of "observer" rather "state", it has no legislature to speak of, its police and law are administered by Rome. And so on.

    The list goes on. No natural resources, no independent sewage system, effectively almost none of the requirements for being an actual state. Oh, and let's not forget ignoring obligation that they signed up to as a state.

    MrP


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    #60
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    MrPudding wrote: »
    [...] No natural resources, no independent sewage system, effectively almost none of the requirements for being an actual state. [...]
    "Vatican Water - Turns To Wine at the Whispering of a Prayer!" - should suggest that to Enda - would get the punters lining up to pay.


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    #61
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    You and everyone else here know what I mean.

    What do you mean? That a majority of people living here identify as Catholic? Is Ireland a white country?


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