Do you "have" to further yourself in work?

Stheno

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I don't think I have alienated my colleagues at all in fact some of them feel the same way as me in that more often than not the wrong person gets the job. As for the boss he hasn't mentioned it since which is fine by me. I personally think its a complete waste to go through the interview process when you know the end result.

How do you know the end result when you didn't even apply? Was someone pre-ordained? That was exactly what happened for the role I posted about and the result was different

FortuneChip

You don't know the end result!
And even "if" they've already got someone in mind, if you do your best in an interview you can rest assured they'll have your shortlisted for other opportunities.

If you're qualified, and you've got a good attitude, it will be noticed.
You're wasting your time discussing the "office politics" with your colleagues much more than you would be by actually having a stab at an application.
All that does is create a negative unmotivated work environment.

boobar

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go for a promotion. Many people find a job that suits them with a good work life balance, and that's fine.

I have to agree with many of the comments here.

Your boss was fair enough to discuss the prospect of promotion with you. Your response was rude, I'm surprised that he was just bemused to be honest.

I've seen this type of attitude before from people, and to be honest it's generally from some that have difficulty seeing their own flaws and lack of suitability for promotion.

Not saying you're like this, I know nothing about you.

If I was in your shoes, I would have thanked the guy for taking an interest and trying to be supportive but politely told him that you weren't interested in promotion at this point in time.

LegacyUser

i can see where you are coming from. the company i work for have often asked staff to go for positions that have already been filled, but they just have to be seen to go through the process so they wont be seen to do anything underhand. i don't know if this is the norm in other workplaces or not.

as for been expected to further yourself, i don't think there is any requirement that you do, and not showing eagerness to get promoted should not be held against you. if you are happy at and good at what you do, then why change.

your initial response to your boss could have been dealt to him differently, but then if your workplace structure is similar to mine then he has a boss who may also have a boss, so your boss may not be the one doing the hiring and might actually agree with you, i also dont think that the op has singularly accused his boss of underhandedness - just the system.

i assume nobody here know you or your workplace so i don't agree with it been your attitude been the problem.

at the end of the day, if the new position was one that you really wanted, i'm quite sure you would have took a shot at it, but if you are happy at your current position then fair play(the fact that you were asked to go for promotion must mean you are a good worker - in my view anyway)

seamus

weemcd wrote: »

I suppose I have a bad attitude too. I just consider myself a realist.

The two are not entangled. Realists can still play the game because they recognise that playing the game is one way to get ahead.

People who refuse to play the game because it's "ball licking" are pessimists, not realists - they believe that playing the game is either pointless or ethically untenable, neither of which are realistic points of view.

BizzyC

It's not a sin to not apply for promotions, but tell your manager it was pointless cause the hiring practices are corrupt was

As you said, there can be a lot of politics in play and you've just pushed yourself out of them.

There's a chance someone else was marked for the role, and a chance there wasn't. You wont know now cause you refused to apply and next time a genuine opportunity comes up your application will be thrown in the bin because of the attitude you've displayed.

Alf Veedersane

I don't think the attitude is horrific. I think saying it to the boss is misguided, to say the least.

But I'd have gone for the promotion and put the theory to the test.

Tiger Mcilroy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think the attitude is horrific. I think saying it to the boss is misguided, to say the least.

But I'd have gone for the promotion and put the theory to the test.

How can the OP's attitude be described as anything other than horriffic, he just marked his own card as somebody that doesn't rate his manager or the internal recruitment process and thinks he knows it all.

Really stupid and negative way to handle what could have been a genuine request to apply for a position.

Alf Veedersane

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

How can the OP's attitude be described as anything other than horriffic, he just marked his own card as somebody that doesn't rate his manager or the internal recruitment process and thinks he knows it all.

Really stupid and negative way to handle what could have been a genuine request to apply for a position.

I separated his attitude and his actions.

His attitude/reasoning for not going for the interview isn't horrific. He's apathetic because of his view that it would be a pointless exercise to go through the motions when he knows the real shortlist is much smaller than the number of people being interviewed.

But telling the manager the reasons he didn't put his name forward is certainly misguided to say the least. Which I said above.

Tiger Mcilroy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I separated his attitude and his actions.

His attitude/reasoning for not going for the interview isn't horrific. He's apathetic because of his view that it would be a pointless exercise to go through the motions when he knows the real shortlist is much smaller than the number of people being interviewed.

But telling the manager the reasons he didn't put his name forward is certainly misguided to say the least. Which I said above.

If you were his boss and that's the reply you get you will most definitely mark him down as having a bad attitude. His actions are a direct representation of his attitude towards the boss and all above him.

Its career suicide and the OP has already said the boss hasnt brought it back up with him which means either the boss has forgotten and moved on or most likely realises that the OP isnt worth the effort and is leaving him off.

Alf Veedersane

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

If you were his boss and that's the reply you get you will most definitely mark him down as having a bad attitude. His actions are a direct representation of his attitude towards the boss and all above him.

But you can have that attitude about the interview process and also have the smarts not to say it out loud.

You play the game and put your name in the hat. Then it's up to them to prove you right or wrong.

Tiger Mcilroy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

But you can have that attitude about the interview process and also have the smarts not to say it out loud.

You play the game and put your name in the hat. Then it's up to them to prove you right or wrong.

Yep the OP went the for column c "nuclear option"..

o1s1n

weemcd wrote: »

Fair play for speaking your mind op. Too much ball licking goes on these days. If what you said is your opinion and true then the boss could do with a few home truths. I'd admire the backbone and honesty if it was me, but I value honesty over everything. Many people don't.

I suppose I have a bad attitude too. I just consider myself a realist.

Spoken like someone who has never been a manager.

OP, I'll tell you this, as a manager. (and a very fair one at that)

There are 'internal politics' in a company/team/whatever which everyone on the floor gossips about. And you know what? It tends to be a load of ****e. Most of it is probably instigated by one or two people and in some cases, it can be used in an attempt to further their own career.

In the end, when hiring people, managers factor in current performance, but ultimately, a lot of it comes down to how the person sold themselves in the interview.

If someone accused me outright of corruption like that I'd be fairly shocked, which by the sounds of it, so is your manager.

You don't seem to realize just how shocking your comment is. Hiring processes are extremely transparent matters policed by the HR department and the whole thing takes a hell of a lot of effort.

If your manager comes to you and asks about a promotion, saying what you did is literally insulting and offensive.

Wanderer2010

o1s1n wrote: »

Spoken like someone who has never been a manager.

OP, I'll tell you this, as a manager. (and a very fair one at that)

There are 'internal politics' in a company/team/whatever which everyone on the floor gossips about. And you know what? It tends to be a load of ****e. Most of it is probably instigated by one or two people and in some cases, it can be used in an attempt to further their own career.

In the end, when hiring people, managers factor in current performance, but ultimately, a lot of it comes down to how the person sold themselves in the interview.

If someone accused me outright of corruption like that I'd be fairly shocked, which by the sounds of it, so is your manager.

You don't seem to realize just how shocking your comment is. Hiring processes are extremely transparent matters policed by the HR department and the whole thing takes a hell of a lot of effort.

If your manager comes to you and asks about a promotion, saying what you did is literally insulting and offensive.

Insulting and offensive? How so? I have read back my posts a few times and I really cannot understand why there is so much emphasis put on what I said and the supposed fallout from it. Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position. I was only telling the truth!

A few people here have said that its career suicide and being managed out etc, again how is that so?? Maybe there are a lot of people here who love playing office politics etc and its usually those people who land the jobs. As i said in OP, one of the positions I could do with my hands behind my back, I have 2 of the major skills mastered by now but because of how workplaces operate, that means nothing during interview. Do managers really hold grudges about simple statements like that? As i said, he hasnt mentioned it since.

DuckHook

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Insulting and offensive? How so? I have read back my posts a few times and I really cannot understand why there is so much emphasis put on what I said and the supposed fallout from it. Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position. I was only telling the truth!

A few people here have said that its career suicide and being managed out etc, again how is that so?? Maybe there are a lot of people here who love playing office politics etc and its usually those people who land the jobs. As i said in OP, one of the positions I could do with my hands behind my back, I have 2 of the major skills mastered by now but because of how workplaces operate, that means nothing during interview. Do managers really hold grudges about simple statements like that? As i said, he hasnt mentioned it since.

I think the fact that you can't see what is wrong with your response to your manager is a bigger issue IMO, the majority of posters are telling you it was out of line but you refuse to even acknowledge it could be seen as rude or offensive.

Everybody else can't be wrong and you the lone voice of reason and I think the general consensus is you need to tread carefully, just because your boss hasn't brought it up doesn't mean it wont come back to bite you. Office politics are a fact of life and most people just try to get on with as little hassle as possible while hating the whole scene which is very different to liking them.

Heisenberg88

You obviously do not have the right attitude for whatever promotion it was. Maybe your work isn't up to as high as standard as you think. Maybe four people go for a role or get asked for a role. Going by your posts here no wonder you can't land a promotion.

weemcd

Some huge assumptions and sweeping generalisations on this thread.

Jim2007

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Insulting and offensive? How so? I have read back my posts a few times and I really cannot understand why there is so much emphasis put on what I said and the supposed fallout from it. Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position. I was only telling the truth!

But you did not have to tell the truth, you did not have to say anything beyond indicating that you were not interested in the position. That is the point!

On occasions where I've found myself in similar situations, I always simple said "That while I was flattered that they were interested in me, I did not feel that the position was a good fit from me right now and that I would not be pursuing it. But thanks again for displaying interest in me". No need to go insulting anyone, especially someone that might be able to do you a good turn someday.

I'm sure your boss must have a good idea how you stack up at work, because I find it hard to imagine you hide the attitude you display here very well, it at all. So the fact that he took the time to encourage you to apply probable means that there might well have been something there...

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I didn't accuse him it was more the system is set up that when these jobs are announced they really only want a certain person to get it so that's why I was annoyed when he was encouraging me to apply because it was just false.

Did you ever thing that perhaps you were his choice? That you were the boss's mate who was going to get the job... How do you get to know you are the chosen one and that you should apply??? Is there some kind of special handshake or something???

BizzyC

OP, I think you're mistaking the "fallout" of your conversation as something immediate.

Your boss will probably never bring it up again and you'll be left to work away at your current job, for now.

As a manager, an employee saying that to me indicates that they don't see the company as somewhere they want to progress and develop their career.
Some might also take that as an indication that you've already got an eye on the door.

So going forward you'll probably find that chances of progression wont be put in front of you again, and not only that, there's a good chance you've hurt your prospects come salary review because there's no point spending on someone who's ready to leave.

Elessar

What about people who are not interested in management roles? You don't have to "progress" to develop your career. You just have to get better at what you do. We have that in our place. Lots of people not interested in management, but want to remain/become technical specialists.
Progression != management.

micosoft

Elessar wrote: »

What about people who are not interested in management roles? You don't have to "progress" to develop your career. You just have to get better at what you do. We have that in our place. Lots of people not interested in management, but want to remain/become technical specialists.
Progression != management.

Which is fine and nobody is disputing that. I had one guy reporting to me who earned a good wedge more then I did because of his unique technical skills. What we call individual contributors. Not a problem and a world away from what the OP actually did.

As for the Op. Speaking as a manager (and now manager of managers) I'll say this.
- The first thing that strikes me OP is your lack of self awareness. It's been pointed out by a number of posters that what you said was deeply inappropriate. This are external observers who have no connection with your company. Yet you still disagree with their opinion (but the facts are undisputed).
- That then leads to me to believe that your idea that "the system" is rigged is also incorrect as your lack of self awareness causes you to construct incorrect theories around how your workplace works simply because you don't understand. The fact you altered it from your manager to some "system" that selects favorites at random actually hints at paranoia! At least there is a possibility a specific manager could have favorites.

If you're young, I'd laugh it off as a manager, but have found it nearly impossible to correct such attitudes in the past. Therefore you may well be written off unless you quickly correct it (to the point of going back into the manager and apologising for the unprofessional response to their counsel to apply for the job). If you are older and quite frankly should be more mature, then I'd regard it as a serious enough issue as this type of ultra negative attitude is quick frankly, poisonous in a work environment. This will impact decisions on future promotions, new work opportunities training, bonuses, redundancy selection all of which will be looked through the optic of someone who thinks management are corrupt. It's tough, but you've made your bed... learn from it!

28064212

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position.

Why do you think the above, and what you did, are the only two options? If you weren't interested, that's all you had to say.

Instead you claimed your company's hiring procedures (and by extension, your boss) were corrupt

Larry Wildman

I'd be shocked if the OP isn't "managed out" because of the insinuations.

Stheno

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I'd be shocked if the OP isn't "managed out" because of the insinuations.

At the very least if he works in an environment where there is performance management, I'd expect it to come up at their next review, in a dreadfully negative way

LegacyUser

I would agree with what the other posts have said here. The reality is that you may not have been interested in applying for this job because you think that x or y will get it. You should have said to your boss thanks for telling me about this but I am happy were I am at the moment ect.
Most boss's what people who are team players and who are keen to learn new skills that benefit the company. After 4 years in the company you should be keen to apply for a higher position and to gain more interview experience.

I know plenty of people who are managers in various companies. They want someone who is a team player, is flexible, is willing to learn new skills and show interest in the company long term. They are not interested in some one telling them they can't manage or that the companies recruitment policy is not the best. I know that you seem to be unwilling to accept that you made a major mistake here but long term your boss will remember this.
Your boss may have wanted you to do this interview for experience, to rise your profile in the company and perhaps in time you could be in a position to get a better job. Instead they now see you as person who has no respect for them or the company.
I know managers who had difficult workers like you and long term these people crossed the line for the last time and were told to leave the company.

Wanderer2010

Stheno wrote: »

At the very least if he works in an environment where there is performance management, I'd expect it to come up at their next review, in a dreadfully negative way

As it happens we do have performance reviews every year but promotions are not mentioned only your work performance. I'm good at what I do therefore I have no reason to be managed out and frankly I don't know what that even means, you either fire someone or not. Apart from looking a bit confused he hasn't mentioned it since nor do I expect him to. I know the wrong people get the jobs hence what I said. But I can't see him being petty enough to hold it in.

Larry Wildman

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

As it happens we do have performance reviews every year but promotions are not mentioned only your work performance. I'm good at what I do therefore I have no reason to be managed out and frankly I don't know what that even means, you either fire someone or not. Apart from looking a bit confused he hasn't mentioned it since nor do I expect him to. I know the wrong people get the jobs hence what I said. But I can't see him being petty enough to hold it in.

"Managed out" means they make it their mission to make you leave without having to fire you or pay you off.

Stheno

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

As it happens we do have performance reviews every year but promotions are not mentioned only your work performance. I'm good at what I do therefore I have no reason to be managed out and frankly I don't know what that even means, you either fire someone or not. Apart from looking a bit confused he hasn't mentioned it since nor do I expect him to. I know the wrong people get the jobs hence what I said. But I can't see him being petty enough to hold it in.

You don't actually, having been a manager of people in the past, there are myriad ways you can manage people so as to demonstrate poor performance.

Do your performance goals for your review have anything about personal development or contributing to the company as an individual?

mikemac1

Absolutely no problem in staying in your role and not pushing forward. Not everyone can be a manager and the company runs on good staff doing the day to day tasks or if it's project work being excellent team members

Leadership is a different role and it's not for everyone and plently who could step up just do not wish to

OP, you've called your managers out as corrupt. And maybe they are but pick your battles.

I don't think you'll be managed out as you're doing the job well. I do expect in your end of year appraisal there will be something there about supporting organisation goals. The manager is not going to say anything now, there is no point in calling you into another meeting.

Tiger Mcilroy

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

As it happens we do have performance reviews every year but promotions are not mentioned only your work performance. I'm good at what I do therefore I have no reason to be managed out and frankly I don't know what that even means, you either fire someone or not. Apart from looking a bit confused he hasn't mentioned it since nor do I expect him to. I know the wrong people get the jobs hence what I said. But I can't see him being petty enough to hold it in.

I dont understand why people come on boards looking for advice when they think they know it all already.

Best of luck OP.