Do you "have" to further yourself in work?

Wanderer2010

So a number of positions came up in the past few months in the office and at least 2 of these positions I would be well qualified for and have a great chance. The boss even sent out emails to the groups saying people should consider applying but I think this is just something bosses are obliged to do and they dont really care if you do or dont get it.

I was asked about one position in particular which would be greater responsibility and more money, but when the boss brought it up with me, I just said I wont bother because "I probably wont get it, the politics here mean you hire who you want and not who should get it"m he looked bemused and he hasnt mentioned it since but is it really a sin to NOT want to apply for higher positions? I think they are usually just a waste and a chance for a boss to get his or her buddy up the ladder?

Larry Wildman

It's a sin in that you show yourself to be lacking in ambition and common sense (especially with the comments to your boss).

If I was you, I'd expect worse coming down the tracks (e.g. being "managed out").

With the greatest respect, who wants to employ someone with your attitude?

indigo twist

Can you really not see how inappropriate your response was?

Wanderer2010

indigo twist wrote: »

Can you really not see how inappropriate your response was?

Em, not really to be perfectly fair. I had a good look at the job spec for the 2 promotions and, with my experience, I would be well able for it. But office politics usually mean these jobs are created for a desired person rather than most qualified etc. Im not really sure where the bad attitude comes from. It wouldnt be unambitious to not turn down extra hours in my view. Plus my boss when coming to me and saying he was surprised I didnt apply was a bit false, he probably knows who ends up getting the job, these promotions always go like that in the end!

seamus

It's considered a little odd if you're happy to do the same thing for the rest of your life and not be eager to get your teeth into more challenging work.

That said, most people recognise that taking a management position and/or taking a position that involves lots of overtime have many positives and negatives. Even though they involve more money, they also involve unsocial hours, seeing less of friends and family, and maybe even moving away from the enjoyable work into more administrative work.

But in general if you have the opportunity to take a non-management role that involves more money and a greater level of responsibility, most people will find it weird if someone isn't interested.

It depends on the work environment, but your attitude towards promotions is in my experience not entirely correct. Yes, if presented with two candidates for a position and one is best mates with the manager who's hiring, then they'll get it. But companies in general like to hire from within. An internal hire is way cheaper and more effective - chances are they can practically do the job already with minimal coaching, they know the processes and the culture of the company, and assuming they're halfway competent it means the company can be assured that the employee isn't going to leave in the medium-term.
External hires who are good mates with the interviewers is quite heavily frowned upon, not least because you may end up having to fire your best mate when he's crap, but also because most companies don't want to be seen to obviously allowing nepotism.
It'll happen all the time in small companies, but a lot less obviously so in larger companies.

Gmol

I don't think you'll ever have to worry about being promoted there in the future.

seamus

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Em, not really to be perfectly fair. I had a good look at the job spec for the 2 promotions and, with my experience, I would be well able for it. But office politics usually mean these jobs are created for a desired person rather than most qualified etc. Im not really sure where the bad attitude comes from. It wouldnt be unambitious to not turn down extra hours in my view. Plus my boss when coming to me and saying he was surprised I didnt apply was a bit false, he probably knows who ends up getting the job, these promotions always go like that in the end!

Do you not realise that you've basically accused your boss of nepotism and only hiring his mates - i.e. you've just accused your boss of being corrupt and incompetent.

If you find your work life turning to crap in the coming weeks, you'll have only yourself to blame tbh.

o1s1n

So your boss was nice enough to discuss a promotional opportunity with you and you accuse him and the hiring process of being corrupt?

As some of the other guys have already said, I can't see you having to worry about promotions in future.

What an awful attitude to have.

Wanderer2010

To clarify, I didnt outright tell him he was an awful boss etc I just said theres no point in going for it because the politics here mean often the right person gets overlooked and he just looked puzzled and left it at that, cant see whats wrong with what I said? i dont understand when people say I should be "managed out". I have been there over 4 years now so I have seen first hand when promotions come up that people are encouraged to go for it then they dont get it. Thats why I thought my boss was being false when bringing it up as he knows well who will get it over me.

I should say there are a lot of politics in the workplace, mine isnt different!

Heisenberg88

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Em, not really to be perfectly fair. I had a good look at the job spec for the 2 promotions and, with my experience, I would be well able for it. But office politics usually mean these jobs are created for a desired person rather than most qualified etc. Im not really sure where the bad attitude comes from. It wouldnt be unambitious to not turn down extra hours in my view. Plus my boss when coming to me and saying he was surprised I didnt apply was a bit false, he probably knows who ends up getting the job, these promotions always go like that in the end!

Don't even know how to respond to this. Your attitude is horrific. Yes they might have a person in mind, or might have a couple of people in mind and its up to yourself to convince them your the right person for the role.

I wouldn't be surprised if they never asked you about a promotion again or if you will ever get a wage rise again.

Wanderer2010

Heisenberg88 wrote: »

Don't even know how to respond to this. Your attitude is horrific. Yes they might have a person in mind, or might have a couple of people in mind and its up to yourself to convince them your the right person for the role.

I wouldn't be surprised if they never asked you about a promotion again or if you will ever get a wage rise again.

I dont agree with your comment on my attitude but the point of the thread is would it be usual to hold it against you to not seek promotion, it seems a lot of people think it would be. Its almost seen as a sin to say you will not seek it..

alan partridge aha

I'd say fair play to you for having the balls to say it to him, you alone know what politics are involved with promotions in the company. If you wish to move up maybe look into changing job, if not don't antagonise management too much.

seamus

Let's put it this way; the company are under no obligation to advertise new positions internally. If they knew who they wanted to promote, they would just promote them and be done with it.

Why would they go to the trouble and waste of holding a beauty contest when they've already picked the winner?

The answer is they haven't. Yes, they might have some preferred candidates, but some people who look good on paper can give awful interviews, and likewise people who otherwise seem a bit bleh can surprise you at interview and really impress.

Being encouraged to go for a job and then not getting it, doesn't mean that the thing was rigged. You don't have the same visibility that management do; you don't know how they performed in the interview, you don't know the details of their work performance, etc.

It sounds to me like you're afraid to interview and you've convinced yourself that it's a waste of your time so you can tell yourself that's why you're not going for it.

Heisenberg88

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

So a number of positions came up in the past few months in the office

I was asked about one position in particular which would be greater responsibility and more money, but when the boss brought it up with me, I just said I wont bother because "I probably wont get it, the politics here mean you hire who you want and not who should get it"m he looked bemused and he hasnt mentioned it since.

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I dont agree with your comment on my attitude but the point of the thread is would it be usual to hold it against you to not seek promotion, it seems a lot of people think it would be. Its almost seen as a sin to say you will not seek it..

No if you don't want to go for a promotion you don't have to. But saying to your boss I probably wont get it, the politics here mean you hire who you want and not who should get it" is just idiotic. No other word for it.

Un Croissant

Even if that was the case, why say it? Making a rod for your own back.

LegacyUser

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Em, not really to be perfectly fair. I had a good look at the job spec for the 2 promotions and, with my experience, I would be well able for it. But office politics usually mean these jobs are created for a desired person rather than most qualified etc. Im not really sure where the bad attitude comes from. It wouldnt be unambitious to not turn down extra hours in my view. Plus my boss when coming to me and saying he was surprised I didnt apply was a bit false, he probably knows who ends up getting the job, these promotions always go like that in the end!

It looks like you were that person but you just office politic'ed yourself out of a promotion. Hard luck.

Jim2007

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I was asked about one position in particular which would be greater responsibility and more money, but when the boss brought it up with me, I just said I wont bother because "I probably wont get it, the politics here mean you hire who you want and not who should get it"m he looked bemused and he hasnt mentioned it since but is it really a sin to NOT want to apply for higher positions? I think they are usually just a waste and a chance for a boss to get his or her buddy up the ladder?

Jazus! There is a hell of a difference between not being interested in the position and accusing you boss of underhand ness! Do you not see this!

Jim2007

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I dont agree with your comment on my attitude but the point of the thread is would it be usual to hold it against you to not seek promotion, it seems a lot of people think it would be. Its almost seen as a sin to say you will not seek it..

The problem is that you went way beyond simply indicating that you were no interested in the job, you accused your boss of being dishonest! If he accused you of being dishonest how would you feel?

Wanderer2010

Jim2007 wrote: »

The problem is that you went way beyond simply indicating that you were no interested in the job, you accused your boss of being dishonest! If he accused you of being dishonest how would you feel?

I didn't accuse him it was more the system is set up that when these jobs are announced they really only want a certain person to get it so that's why I was annoyed when he was encouraging me to apply because it was just false.

Heisenberg88

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I didn't accuse him it was more the system is set up that when these jobs are announced they really only want a certain person to get it so that's why I was annoyed when he was encouraging me to apply because it was just false.

What do you mean by a certain person? Why wouldn't they consider you?

Wanderer2010

Because when positions like that have been announced before I have never agreed with the person who got it in the end there was usually a lot to be desired hence the whole process is a bit silly in my eyes. It shouldn't be held against an employee to not attend for interview!

Stheno

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Because when positions like that have been announced before I have never agreed with the person who got it in the end there was usually a lot to be desired hence the whole process is a bit silly in my eyes. It shouldn't be held against an employee to not attend for interview!

I applied for a promotion in an MNC ten months in and the world and his mother told me I wouldn't get it.

I did.

Even my manager told me it was unlikely, but I had a completely different attitude to you, was determined to beat the politics and prove myself, and got the job.

Your attitude stinks imo and does you no favours.

Heisenberg88

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Because when positions like that have been announced before I have never agreed with the person who got it in the end there was usually a lot to be desired hence the whole process is a bit silly in my eyes. It shouldn't be held against an employee to not attend for interview!

Maybe if you have a better attitude you might. Sorry for been blunt but from reading all your posts in this thread it seems you have a terrible work attitude. Especially saying what you did to your manager and I'm not surprised you havn't been put forward.

I got turned down for a promotion in work after a gruelling interview, aptitude tests, work scenarios setup. I said to my manager thanks for the opportunity and it was great experience which will benefit me. Six months down the line another role came up and I got it.

Things arn't handed to you on a plate, you work for them!

Wanderer2010

Heisenberg88 wrote: »

Maybe if you have a better attitude you might. Sorry for been blunt but from reading all your posts in this thread it seems you have a terrible work attitude. Especially saying what you did to your manager and I'm not surprised you havn't been put forward.

I got turned down for a promotion in work after a gruelling interview, aptitude tests, work scenarios setup. I said to my manager thanks for the opportunity and it was great experience which will benefit me. Six months down the line another role came up and I got it.

Things arn't handed to you on a plate, you work for them!

I think people might be missing the main point of the thread here, it was more a feeler for opinions on whether not applying for positions would work against you or is common. I really can't see anything wrong with what I said, would it not be worse if I applied, did the interview then was rejected as I knew from the start. Him suggesting I would be good for it is just hot air I can't understand why that is a bad attitude??

Eoin

To answer your original question and ignoring your reply to your manager - there are plenty of people who are happy in their job, don't really want to progress and are happy with the status quo. Especially if being promoted means doing less of what they actually enjoy doing, spending more time away from their hobbies, families or whatever.

There isn't room for everyone to get promoted (without a lot of staff turnover), so there's a lot to be said for having the nine-to-fivers who will do a solid if not spectacular job.

But your reply doesn't imply that you're happy with what you're doing and don't want to do something else, so don't confuse why you may have received a negative response.

Wanderer2010 wrote:

Because when positions like that have been announced before I have never agreed with the person who got it in the end there was usually a lot to be desired hence the whole process is a bit silly in my eyes

The trick is to assume that the people in senior roles have access to more information than you when they make decisions, and you may not be aware of all the factors. If you still believe that their decisions are wrong, then you need to find another employer.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

bryaner

Whether you're going to get it or not apply anyway, show some form of interest.

guitarzero

f*ck it.

lm01

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to further yourself but the way you express that should be more "I don't feel I'm right for that role, I'm very happy in my current position and feel I perform well here" and less "I can't be arsed because I won't get it anyway".

It's your attitude/approach that's the problem not your lack of desire for promotion.

Wanderer2010

I don't think I have alienated my colleagues at all in fact some of them feel the same way as me in that more often than not the wrong person gets the job. As for the boss he hasn't mentioned it since which is fine by me. I personally think its a complete waste to go through the interview process when you know the end result.

weemcd

Fair play for speaking your mind op. Too much ball licking goes on these days. If what you said is your opinion and true then the boss could do with a few home truths. I'd admire the backbone and honesty if it was me, but I value honesty over everything. Many people don't.

I suppose I have a bad attitude too. I just consider myself a realist.

Stheno

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I don't think I have alienated my colleagues at all in fact some of them feel the same way as me in that more often than not the wrong person gets the job. As for the boss he hasn't mentioned it since which is fine by me. I personally think its a complete waste to go through the interview process when you know the end result.

How do you know the end result when you didn't even apply? Was someone pre-ordained? That was exactly what happened for the role I posted about and the result was different

FortuneChip

You don't know the end result!
And even "if" they've already got someone in mind, if you do your best in an interview you can rest assured they'll have your shortlisted for other opportunities.

If you're qualified, and you've got a good attitude, it will be noticed.
You're wasting your time discussing the "office politics" with your colleagues much more than you would be by actually having a stab at an application.
All that does is create a negative unmotivated work environment.

boobar

There's nothing wrong with not wanting to go for a promotion. Many people find a job that suits them with a good work life balance, and that's fine.

I have to agree with many of the comments here.

Your boss was fair enough to discuss the prospect of promotion with you. Your response was rude, I'm surprised that he was just bemused to be honest.

I've seen this type of attitude before from people, and to be honest it's generally from some that have difficulty seeing their own flaws and lack of suitability for promotion.

Not saying you're like this, I know nothing about you.

If I was in your shoes, I would have thanked the guy for taking an interest and trying to be supportive but politely told him that you weren't interested in promotion at this point in time.

LegacyUser

i can see where you are coming from. the company i work for have often asked staff to go for positions that have already been filled, but they just have to be seen to go through the process so they wont be seen to do anything underhand. i don't know if this is the norm in other workplaces or not.

as for been expected to further yourself, i don't think there is any requirement that you do, and not showing eagerness to get promoted should not be held against you. if you are happy at and good at what you do, then why change.

your initial response to your boss could have been dealt to him differently, but then if your workplace structure is similar to mine then he has a boss who may also have a boss, so your boss may not be the one doing the hiring and might actually agree with you, i also dont think that the op has singularly accused his boss of underhandedness - just the system.

i assume nobody here know you or your workplace so i don't agree with it been your attitude been the problem.

at the end of the day, if the new position was one that you really wanted, i'm quite sure you would have took a shot at it, but if you are happy at your current position then fair play(the fact that you were asked to go for promotion must mean you are a good worker - in my view anyway)

seamus

weemcd wrote: »

I suppose I have a bad attitude too. I just consider myself a realist.

The two are not entangled. Realists can still play the game because they recognise that playing the game is one way to get ahead.

People who refuse to play the game because it's "ball licking" are pessimists, not realists - they believe that playing the game is either pointless or ethically untenable, neither of which are realistic points of view.

BizzyC

It's not a sin to not apply for promotions, but tell your manager it was pointless cause the hiring practices are corrupt was

As you said, there can be a lot of politics in play and you've just pushed yourself out of them.

There's a chance someone else was marked for the role, and a chance there wasn't. You wont know now cause you refused to apply and next time a genuine opportunity comes up your application will be thrown in the bin because of the attitude you've displayed.

Alf Veedersane

I don't think the attitude is horrific. I think saying it to the boss is misguided, to say the least.

But I'd have gone for the promotion and put the theory to the test.

Tiger Mcilroy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I don't think the attitude is horrific. I think saying it to the boss is misguided, to say the least.

But I'd have gone for the promotion and put the theory to the test.

How can the OP's attitude be described as anything other than horriffic, he just marked his own card as somebody that doesn't rate his manager or the internal recruitment process and thinks he knows it all.

Really stupid and negative way to handle what could have been a genuine request to apply for a position.

Alf Veedersane

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

How can the OP's attitude be described as anything other than horriffic, he just marked his own card as somebody that doesn't rate his manager or the internal recruitment process and thinks he knows it all.

Really stupid and negative way to handle what could have been a genuine request to apply for a position.

I separated his attitude and his actions.

His attitude/reasoning for not going for the interview isn't horrific. He's apathetic because of his view that it would be a pointless exercise to go through the motions when he knows the real shortlist is much smaller than the number of people being interviewed.

But telling the manager the reasons he didn't put his name forward is certainly misguided to say the least. Which I said above.

Tiger Mcilroy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I separated his attitude and his actions.

His attitude/reasoning for not going for the interview isn't horrific. He's apathetic because of his view that it would be a pointless exercise to go through the motions when he knows the real shortlist is much smaller than the number of people being interviewed.

But telling the manager the reasons he didn't put his name forward is certainly misguided to say the least. Which I said above.

If you were his boss and that's the reply you get you will most definitely mark him down as having a bad attitude. His actions are a direct representation of his attitude towards the boss and all above him.

Its career suicide and the OP has already said the boss hasnt brought it back up with him which means either the boss has forgotten and moved on or most likely realises that the OP isnt worth the effort and is leaving him off.

Alf Veedersane

Tiger Mcilroy wrote: »

If you were his boss and that's the reply you get you will most definitely mark him down as having a bad attitude. His actions are a direct representation of his attitude towards the boss and all above him.

But you can have that attitude about the interview process and also have the smarts not to say it out loud.

You play the game and put your name in the hat. Then it's up to them to prove you right or wrong.

Tiger Mcilroy

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

But you can have that attitude about the interview process and also have the smarts not to say it out loud.

You play the game and put your name in the hat. Then it's up to them to prove you right or wrong.

Yep the OP went the for column c "nuclear option"..

o1s1n

weemcd wrote: »

Fair play for speaking your mind op. Too much ball licking goes on these days. If what you said is your opinion and true then the boss could do with a few home truths. I'd admire the backbone and honesty if it was me, but I value honesty over everything. Many people don't.

I suppose I have a bad attitude too. I just consider myself a realist.

Spoken like someone who has never been a manager.

OP, I'll tell you this, as a manager. (and a very fair one at that)

There are 'internal politics' in a company/team/whatever which everyone on the floor gossips about. And you know what? It tends to be a load of ****e. Most of it is probably instigated by one or two people and in some cases, it can be used in an attempt to further their own career.

In the end, when hiring people, managers factor in current performance, but ultimately, a lot of it comes down to how the person sold themselves in the interview.

If someone accused me outright of corruption like that I'd be fairly shocked, which by the sounds of it, so is your manager.

You don't seem to realize just how shocking your comment is. Hiring processes are extremely transparent matters policed by the HR department and the whole thing takes a hell of a lot of effort.

If your manager comes to you and asks about a promotion, saying what you did is literally insulting and offensive.

Wanderer2010

o1s1n wrote: »

Spoken like someone who has never been a manager.

OP, I'll tell you this, as a manager. (and a very fair one at that)

There are 'internal politics' in a company/team/whatever which everyone on the floor gossips about. And you know what? It tends to be a load of ****e. Most of it is probably instigated by one or two people and in some cases, it can be used in an attempt to further their own career.

In the end, when hiring people, managers factor in current performance, but ultimately, a lot of it comes down to how the person sold themselves in the interview.

If someone accused me outright of corruption like that I'd be fairly shocked, which by the sounds of it, so is your manager.

You don't seem to realize just how shocking your comment is. Hiring processes are extremely transparent matters policed by the HR department and the whole thing takes a hell of a lot of effort.

If your manager comes to you and asks about a promotion, saying what you did is literally insulting and offensive.

Insulting and offensive? How so? I have read back my posts a few times and I really cannot understand why there is so much emphasis put on what I said and the supposed fallout from it. Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position. I was only telling the truth!

A few people here have said that its career suicide and being managed out etc, again how is that so?? Maybe there are a lot of people here who love playing office politics etc and its usually those people who land the jobs. As i said in OP, one of the positions I could do with my hands behind my back, I have 2 of the major skills mastered by now but because of how workplaces operate, that means nothing during interview. Do managers really hold grudges about simple statements like that? As i said, he hasnt mentioned it since.

DuckHook

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Insulting and offensive? How so? I have read back my posts a few times and I really cannot understand why there is so much emphasis put on what I said and the supposed fallout from it. Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position. I was only telling the truth!

A few people here have said that its career suicide and being managed out etc, again how is that so?? Maybe there are a lot of people here who love playing office politics etc and its usually those people who land the jobs. As i said in OP, one of the positions I could do with my hands behind my back, I have 2 of the major skills mastered by now but because of how workplaces operate, that means nothing during interview. Do managers really hold grudges about simple statements like that? As i said, he hasnt mentioned it since.

I think the fact that you can't see what is wrong with your response to your manager is a bigger issue IMO, the majority of posters are telling you it was out of line but you refuse to even acknowledge it could be seen as rude or offensive.

Everybody else can't be wrong and you the lone voice of reason and I think the general consensus is you need to tread carefully, just because your boss hasn't brought it up doesn't mean it wont come back to bite you. Office politics are a fact of life and most people just try to get on with as little hassle as possible while hating the whole scene which is very different to liking them.

Heisenberg88

You obviously do not have the right attitude for whatever promotion it was. Maybe your work isn't up to as high as standard as you think. Maybe four people go for a role or get asked for a role. Going by your posts here no wonder you can't land a promotion.

weemcd

Some huge assumptions and sweeping generalisations on this thread.

Jim2007

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Insulting and offensive? How so? I have read back my posts a few times and I really cannot understand why there is so much emphasis put on what I said and the supposed fallout from it. Every workplace is different but in my view why would I just accept his words that I go for it, get all prepared for the interview, rehearse answers etc only to not get the job? Would it not be worse if I said to him "Oh thats great I really look forward to it" and go through the whole process only for a football buddy of one of the managers to land the position. I was only telling the truth!

But you did not have to tell the truth, you did not have to say anything beyond indicating that you were not interested in the position. That is the point!

On occasions where I've found myself in similar situations, I always simple said "That while I was flattered that they were interested in me, I did not feel that the position was a good fit from me right now and that I would not be pursuing it. But thanks again for displaying interest in me". No need to go insulting anyone, especially someone that might be able to do you a good turn someday.

I'm sure your boss must have a good idea how you stack up at work, because I find it hard to imagine you hide the attitude you display here very well, it at all. So the fact that he took the time to encourage you to apply probable means that there might well have been something there...

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

I didn't accuse him it was more the system is set up that when these jobs are announced they really only want a certain person to get it so that's why I was annoyed when he was encouraging me to apply because it was just false.

Did you ever thing that perhaps you were his choice? That you were the boss's mate who was going to get the job... How do you get to know you are the chosen one and that you should apply??? Is there some kind of special handshake or something???

BizzyC

OP, I think you're mistaking the "fallout" of your conversation as something immediate.

Your boss will probably never bring it up again and you'll be left to work away at your current job, for now.

As a manager, an employee saying that to me indicates that they don't see the company as somewhere they want to progress and develop their career.
Some might also take that as an indication that you've already got an eye on the door.

So going forward you'll probably find that chances of progression wont be put in front of you again, and not only that, there's a good chance you've hurt your prospects come salary review because there's no point spending on someone who's ready to leave.

Elessar

What about people who are not interested in management roles? You don't have to "progress" to develop your career. You just have to get better at what you do. We have that in our place. Lots of people not interested in management, but want to remain/become technical specialists.
Progression != management.