remove that niqab or leave!

moc moc a moc

Rosy Posy wrote: »

No, but in the process it oppresses women

It oppresses women no more than it oppresses men.

I don't hear you bleating about men losing their right to walk around Paris wearing balaclavas.

Carry

Originally Posted by fedor.2. View Post
Well, you should get a stronger stomach. If you honestly believe that most of these women choose to dress like that freely, then you're seriously deluded.

It's ingrained from birth, God forbid they show abit of flesh and lead those poor vulnerable men to temptation. They are cloth prisons.

No, it's not. Not more than wearing wellies in the Irish countryside or a Roman torturous cross around your neck.

It might apply to women who are actually forced to cover their heads and body.

But what about all the women in Turkey who by law are not allowed to wear a headscarf but are now fighting to do so?

What about muslim teacher women who fight in Germany to be allowed to wear a headscarf because they want to? Because they want to be proud of their cultural identy?

The whole discussion is double-sided.

If a woman is forced to wear a niqab or headscarf, then no. If she wants to, then yes.

It's very condescending of mostly male posters to decide what is good for a woman.

The Diabolical Monocle

Carry wrote: »

No, it's not. Not more than wearing wellies in the Irish countryside or a Roman torturous cross around your neck.

It might apply to women who are actually forced to cover their heads and body.

But what about all the women in Turkey who by law are not allowed to wear a headscarf but are now fighting to do so?

What about muslim teacher women who fight in Germany to be allowed to wear a headscarf because they want to? Because they want to be proud of their cultural identy?

The whole discussion is double-sided.

If a woman is forced to wear a niqab or headscarf, then no. If she wants to, then yes.

It's very condescending of mostly male posters to decide what is good for a woman.

Its not a gender issue.

They didn't want someone, male or female, fully hidden in a cloth bin-liner in their presence.

Or in a balaclava, or a scream mask, or in sht stained underpants and a string vest, ergo they were told to dress appropriately for the location/occasion by the other 2999 (?) people or rightly fvck off away from them and the private property they wanted to enter.

jackofalltrades

Rosy Posy wrote: »

No, but in the process it oppresses women. I'm not crazy about the idea of purdah and in an ideal world Islam would come around to a more egalitarian way of thinking, but laws like this exacerbate the problem and polarise rather than cohere.

wrote:

Wouldn't it be better to empower and educate them to change their own culture from within rather than to disenfranchise them? Better to be allowed freedom of movement in a cloth prison than to be confined to your home in a prison with walls.

Why do we need to empower and educate Muslims to change their culture? Surely that's their business.

This law is basically saying that purdah is completely against French societal norms and is unacceptable.
If you want to keep purdah then you can do it in private but not in public.
Your rights to religious freedom are trumped by the societal norm of people communicating with each other and being connected with society.

Yes this may restrict the movement of some women, but people disconnecting with society at large would be a much greater danger in the long run.

challengemaster

bluewolf wrote: »

It offends ME

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHMoDt3nSHs

Nodin

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better to empower and educate them to change their own culture from within rather than to disenfranchise them? Better to be allowed freedom of movement in a cloth prison than to be confined to your home in a prison with walls.

I'm not seeing 'Getting one up on the muslims' in your so called idea....

Timberrrrrrrr

The Diabolical Monocle wrote: »

Its not a gender issue.

They didn't want someone, male or female, fully hidden in a cloth bin-liner in their presence.

Or in a balaclava, or a scream mask, or in sht stained underpants and a string vest, ergo they were told to dress appropriately for the location/occasion by the other 2999 (?) people or rightly fvck off away from them and the private property they wanted to enter.

But that's not what happened is it?

She went to the opera and walked in clothed as she was and nothing said,

She sat in the front row so the 2999 or whatever people behind her either didn't notice or didn't care.

It was ONE performer on the stage who took spotted her during the 2nd act and that's when some cast members umbrage with what she was wearing.

She travels to the theater where many people would have seen her, No issue.

She enters the theater where many people would have seen her, No issue

She takes her seat where many people would have seen her, No issue

Half hour into the show someone spots her and has a hissy fit.

Referring to a security guard, Mr Thiellay said: 'He told her that in France there is a ban of this nature, asked her to either uncover her face or leave the auditorium.

Why wasn't this bought to her attention when she entered the theater or at the box office when tickets were handed over?

looking_around

mike_ie wrote: »

By that logic I could argue towards a ban on hats and big sunglasses then, as worn together they post the exact same 'risk' in terms of identity. But that's not the issue here - as I said, there are legitimate reasons to ask to see somebody's face, and as long as you have a non-bigoted reason to require the head to be uncovered, even a trivial one, and it applies to everyone, then it's not an issue, and I imagine that most people who wear a niqab would be happy to comply.

What we have here though is a general ban - those who wish to wear a niqab for whatever reasons effectively can't do so outside of their homes and as such, infringing upon a person's right to choose what she wears. In other words, forcing a woman not to wear a burka or niqab contravenes a woman's right to choose in the same way that forcing her to wear one does - the reason being trotted out for this law in the first place.

Don't know about you, but I've never seen someone wear sunglasses in a dark room indoors, I'd also be fairly suspicious if they were, and I assume they'd be asked to take the sunglasses off.

She wasn't told she couldn't wear it out and about, just not inside a public building.
She doesn't like it? Well there a countries that are happy to allow it, and she can move there, France isn't one of them, Hasn't been for a few years now. No point acting surprised. And I agree with the French.

MRnotlob606

Cultural relativism is nuts these days. There's a fine line between tolerance and madness and I believe they acted in the right way. It is france so what they do in France. If you can't then go home.

Barely There

If you choose to live in a Country, you must agree to follow that Countries laws.
This woman was obviously aware of the law regarding the wearing of the niquab, but decided that it shouldn't apply to her.

Personally I'm delighted that they took a stand against her and made her remove it.
Fundamentalists of any creed need to be constant fought and told that their personal beliefs' do not trump the laws of society.

Defender OF Faith

fedor.2. wrote: »

Well, you should get a stronger stomach. If you honestly believe that most of these women choose to dress like that freely, then you're seriously deluded.

It's ingrained from birth, God forbid they show abit of flesh and lead those poor vulnerable men to temptation. They are cloth prisons.

The only person deluded here is you, why don't we listen to what the muslim womens say about dressing like this?

I suggest you and everyone here watch this excellent video and listen to the other side of the story and see what the majority/most of these women actually think,instead of making your own assumptions and try enforce it based on your moral & liberal values

"But hold on, you think we're forced [to wear it]? but yet you force us to take it off?"

Teyla Emmagan

I am with the French on this as it happens. I don't think anyone should be allowed to wear religious garb that obscures their face in public. Grand, do it in your own home, but not in public. I think because we still have so few minorities here in Ireland we think 'ah it's only one woman, she's harmless', and indeed she is. But go to other countries where there are significant numbers of women covered up and you realise how oppressive the practice is. Not just for the women covered up but for everyone else! This woman was asked to take off her veil because she was breaking the law, which I am sure she knew, and I am fine with that. I don't think the public arena is the place to publicise your religious affiliations.

Barely There

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

and see what the majority/most of these women actually think,

You do realise that posting some random video doesn't prove anything about what 'the majority' of Muslim women think?

Timberrrrrrrr

Barely There wrote: »

If you choose to live in a Country, you must agree to follow that Countries laws.
This woman was obviously aware of the law regarding the wearing of the niquab, but decided that it shouldn't apply to her.

Personally I'm delighted that they took a stand against her and made her remove it.
Fundamentalists of any creed need to be constant fought and told that their personal beliefs' do not trump the laws of society.

How was she "obviously aware"?

So far unnamed, she is believed to be a well-off woman from a Gulf State, and was attending the performance with a friend.

Egginacup

conorh91 wrote: »

I don't really object to someone wearing the niqab at the opera. Perhaps she'd like to nod-off, while attempting to look cultured.

Although I do object to the niqab in the street, and in the workplace. Part of living in society means living together, and not going around with a rag over your face, asking to be taken seriously.

Since when do you set the rules for living in society? And don't quote the "law" to me. It was "lawful" to persecute Jews in Germany in the 1930's.

Barely There

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How was she "obviously aware"?

Because it's a recent enough law that garnered a large amount of publicity and controversy when it was introduced and it would have directly affect her given that she wears a niquab.

Even if she wasn't aware, which I would find difficult to believe, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and she's most certainly aware of the law now - which is nice.

fedor.2.

Egginacup wrote: »

Since when do you set the rules for living in society? And don't quote the "law" to me. It was "lawful" to persecute Jews in Germany in the 1930's.

I hope your not equating this to what the nazis did to the Jews!!! That's very silly

Timberrrrrrrr

Barely There wrote: »

Because it's a recent enough law that garnered a large amount of publicity and controversy when it was introduced and it would have directly affect her given that she wears a niquab.

Even if she wasn't aware, which I would find difficult to believe, ignorance of the law is no excuse, and she's most certainly aware of the law now - which is nice.

Are you aware of EVERY single little law when you visit a foreign country?

fedor.2.

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The only person deluded here is you, why don't we listen to what the muslim womens say about dressing like this?

I suggest you and everyone here watch this excellent video and listen to the other side of the story and see what the majority/most of these women actually think,instead of making your own assumptions and try enforce it based on your moral & liberal values

"But hold on, you think we're forced [to wear it]? but yet you force us to take it off?"

Ah, a 3 minute video with a few British Muslims, I stand corrected:rolleyes:

Badly Drunk Boy

conorh91 wrote: »

I don't really object to someone wearing the niqab at the opera. Perhaps she'd like to nod-off, while attempting to look cultured.

Exactly! Sometimes, I wish I had a defence mechanism/excuse like that. A bit like the Homer Simpson not -asleep glasses.

(I'd love something like this right now...)

crybaby

"we don't want to be defined by how we dress"

Now let's all put on the most ridiculously anti-social matching costume that we can find...

There's something really sad about that video above

Barely There

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Are you aware of EVERY single little law when you visit a foreign country?

I'm aware of that law in France and I don't even wear a niquab.

Timberrrrrrrr

Barely There wrote: »

I'm aware of that law in France and I don't even wear a niquab.

Because it made the news here in this country, Did it make the news in the country where the lady is from? You presume she was aware of this law. I'll ask again, are you aware of EVERY law of a country that you plan to visit?

Barely There

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Because it made the news here in this country, Did it make the news in the country where the lady is from? You presume she was aware of this law. I'll ask again, are you aware of EVERY law of a country that you plan to visit?

I don't really care whether she was aware of it or not, though I suspect she was - ignorance of the law is no excuse.

At the end of the day she's either arrogant or ignorant.

The main thing is that she's aware of the law now and I doubt she'll try breaking it again.

suicide_circus

Freedom isnt free. There is no such thing as an absolutely free society. Societies work due to rules and regulations. Contrary to popular belief freedom does not mean do whatever you want.
The niqab is to Islam as the Christmas tree is to Christianity ie: entirely cultural and nothing to do with the actual tenets of the religion. Same as FGM - practiced by some muslims but nothing to do with islam. Should FGM also be allowed in the name of freedom?
The sacred cow of multiculturalism, ie: the practice of shoehorning very different people into the same geographical location only works with active give, take, ccompromise and sacrifice from all sides. Like it ir not, this is a measure France have taken.

Timberrrrrrrr

Barely There wrote: »

I don't really care whether she was aware of it or not, though I suspect she was - ignorance of the law is no excuse.

At the end of the day she's either arrogant or ignorant.

The main thing is that she's aware of the law now and I doubt she'll try breaking it again.

Way to avoid answering the question :rolleyes:


Let's try again shall we?


You are going abroad tomorrow/next week/next month

Do YOU read up and learn EVERY LITTLE LAW in relation to that country?

Timberrrrrrrr

suicide_circus wrote: »

Freedom isnt free. There is no such thing as an absolutely free society. Societies work due to rules and regulations. Contrary to popular belief freedom does not mean do whatever you want.
The niqab is to Islam as the Christmas tree is to Christianity ie: entirely cultural and nothing to do with the actual tenets of the religion. Same as FGM - practiced by some muslims but nothing to do with islam. Should FGM also be allowed in the name of freedom?
The sacred cow of multiculturalism, ie: the practice of shoehorning very different people into the same geographical location only works with active give, take, ccompromise and sacrifice from all sides. Like it ir not, this is a measure France have taken.

I agree FGM is a barbaric practice and should be banned worldwide, If we are going to ban that let's also ban metzitzah b'peh which is linked to the deaths of babies.

suicide_circus

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I agree FGM is a barbaric practice and should be banned worldwide, If we are going to ban that let's also ban metzitzah b'peh which is linked to the deaths of babies.

Indeed. Any non medically necessary interference with a child' s genitalia should be banned.

CptMackey

My religion says that I should wear a balaclava at all times but especially in public. Should I be allowed to?

well done to the French. A similar ban wouldn't go amiss here

RobYourBuilder

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

The only person deluded here is you, why don't we listen to what the muslim womens say about dressing like this?

I suggest you and everyone here watch this excellent video and listen to the other side of the story and see what the majority/most of these women actually think,instead of making your own assumptions and try enforce it based on your moral & liberal values

"But hold on, you think we're forced [to wear it]? but yet you force us to take it off?"

Luckily, the French nation has some self respect and doesn't give a flying croissant whether you or these other foreigners support the law or not.