Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

cgcsb · 18-03-2015 12:41pm

Thread bump.

Has there been any progress on this or is the project dead?

It was my understanding that BRT would go ahead regardless of what happens to metro north, since neither can replace the other anyway.

All seems to be quiet on the BRT front on the official side anyway. I think most people here agree that BRT, in it's current guise, is a waste of money with benefits that could be achieved across the Dublin Bus network for less money without buying bendi-buses.

bk · 18-03-2015 1:16pm

cgcsb wrote: »

All seems to be quiet on the BRT front on the official side anyway. I think most people here agree that BRT, in it's current guise, is a waste of money with benefits that could be achieved across the Dublin Bus network for less money without buying bendi-buses.

No, I think you will find many of us don't agree with your statement above!

LXFlyer · 18-03-2015 2:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Thread bump.

Has there been any progress on this or is the project dead?

It was my understanding that BRT would go ahead regardless of what happens to metro north, since neither can replace the other anyway.

All seems to be quiet on the BRT front on the official side anyway. I think most people here agree that BRT, in it's current guise, is a waste of money with benefits that could be achieved across the Dublin Bus network for less money without buying bendi-buses.

The project is currently proceeding after the recent consultation. The next phase will be to take those views into account and produce the final detailed plans which will then go forward to the planning authorities.

That should happen in the first half of this year.

cgcsb · 18-03-2015 3:08pm

bk wrote: »

No, I think you will find many of us don't agree with your statement above!

Multi-door operation; already possible on many (most?) buses, but not used by drivers.

Traffic light priority; done in the 90's/00's then switched off to appease the oil industry

Improved bus lanes; obviously doable without bendi-buses

real time; already done

Off board ticketing; doable without BRT as London Bus have demonstrated

anything else?

bk · 18-03-2015 5:16pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Multi-door operation; already possible on many (most?) buses, but not used by drivers.

But that is exactly the point, the NTA buy nice new dual door buses for DB, yet the drivers largely continue to refuse to use them!

So what would the point of the NTA buying nice new Berlin style, triple door, dual stairs double deck buses for DB, only for DB drivers to continue not using the extra doors at every stop!!!

It would just end up another failed project like the original purchase of the bendi buses was.

Having looked at the plans in detail, for once this actually seems to be a very well thought out and detailed plan. The plan involves a great deal of road works, new and improved walking and cycling paths, removal of pinch points etc.

For example the removal of the pinch point at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra and many other improvements. Many Dublin Bus stops will be rebuilt, widened and set back further off the road.

This will not only greatly benefit the BRT, but also Dublin Bus and all other bus and coach services accessing the city.

I believe it is these engineering changes that cost most of the project, not the buses used or who drives them and I think it will lead to a massive, very welcome improvement in public transport quality in Dublin.

My only fear about this project is that it seems DB will be operating these routes under the NTA direction and I fear DB will feck it up, much as they have fecked everything else up (see dual door operation).

As for bendi buses versus double deckers. Bendi buses have higher capacity, are easier to use and more accessible for elderly and disabled people and have lower dwell times due to no stairs and easier access.

As long as they are designed to be properly used on a route, like it looks like they are on the new BRT routes, then they are far preferable to double deckers.

Banjoxed · 18-03-2015 5:17pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Multi-door operation; already possible on many (most?) buses, but not used by drivers.

Traffic light priority; done in the 90's/00's then switched off to appease the oil industry

Improved bus lanes; obviously doable without bendi-buses

real time; already done

Off board ticketing; doable without BRT as London Bus have demonstrated

anything else?

I always thought this was about buying buses from Wrights and then designing a scheme to use them as cheaply as possible.

LXFlyer · 18-03-2015 6:38pm

I have misgivings about the use of articulated buses from the far side of Swords to the city, purely because of the length of the route.

The NTA's own predictions show people standing from Swords as far as the city and I just cannot see that being an improvement in comfort over the existing services where most people get a seat, and people stand for short elements of the journey. Standing on an articulated bus for around 30-35 minutes is not a comfortable experience and really needs to a re-think.

The articulated vehicles would be more suited to the shorter Airport-City run and tri-axle double decks with triple doors would suit the longer Swords run.

The lack of any Park & Ride facility in the plans is unbelievable, as it cuts off much of Swords from being able to use this service unless integrated fares are offered on a feeder bus service.

Carawaystick · 18-03-2015 6:39pm

bk wrote: »

For example the removal of the pinch point at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra and many other improvements. Many Dublin Bus stops will be rebuilt, widened and set back further off the road.

The cat&cage works are ongoing at the minute and are not part of the swiftway project.

xper · 18-03-2015 11:56pm

bk wrote: »

But that is exactly the point, the NTA buy nice new dual door buses for DB, yet the drivers largely continue to refuse to use them!...

If* the BRT vehicles employed are going to be true to the trams-with-tyres concept, then the doors will presumably be passenger operated, the driver will merely release the doors after coming to a halt at the stop platform and close them before departing.

... As for bendi buses versus double deckers. Bendi buses have higher capacity, are easier to use and more accessible for elderly and disabled people and have lower dwell times due to no stairs and easier access.

As long as they are designed to be properly used on a route, like it looks like they are on the new BRT routes, then they are far preferable to double deckers.

Yes, simply dismissing bendi-buses as automatically crap is Clarkson-esque rubbish. If* it's the right vehicle, the right route, the road surface and stop infrastructure are appropriately upgraded and they are driven correctly, they can be part of a perfectly good public transport service.

* The Ifs are critical. Dublin's previous bendi bus experience illustrates perfectly why failing to use such vehicles appropriately leads to a bad reputation. It remains to be seen whether the implementation of Swiftway will fare better.

bk · 19-03-2015 12:50am

lxflyer wrote: »

The articulated vehicles would be more suited to the shorter Airport-City run and tri-axle double decks with triple doors would suit the longer Swords run.

That is certainly a good observation. On the other hand, I'll mention that people regularly stand for 30 minutes or more on Luas and there are few complaints about it. In fact I expect most Dubliners will tell you Luas is the best form of public transport in Dublin.

I note on the bendy bus I was on in Krakow to the airport recently that took 35 minutes, nobody seemed to have a problem standing for that time. Ride seemed fine to me too.

However yes a triple door, dual stairs double decker from Swords, that goes non stop from the airport * to the city could be quiet a good idea.

* People who might want to go from Swords to Drumcondra, etc. could transfer unto the bendy bus from the Airport to the City. Of course with proper integrated ticketing that didn't punish you for making such a change.

lxflyer wrote: »

The lack of any Park & Ride facility in the plans is unbelievable, as it cuts off much of Swords from being able to use this service unless integrated fares are offered on a feeder bus service.

I couldn't agree more. This was one of my favourite parts about Metro North, the planned park and ride on the M50.

We should absolutely be encouraging people living outside the M50 to only drive as far as the M50 and then transfer onto high capacity, fast, public transport into the city. It is the solution to our low density urban sprawl outside the M50.

I assume the reason that it has been left out of the BRT plans, is that BRT simply doesn't have the capacity to handle such park and rides. BRT will definitely have more capacity then the current Dublin Airport bus services, but it won't come near to having the capacity of Metro North and while I certainly believe BRT is definitely a badly needed upgrade to Dublins bus services, it certainly isn't a real long term replacement for Metro North.

Carawaystick wrote: »

The cat&cage works are ongoing at the minute and are not part of the swiftway project.

From what I've heard, the widening at the Cat & Cage while strictly speaking not part of Swiftway project, instead part of the new building in the College, it has very much been planned and designed with Swiftway in mind and is example of the sort of major road re-engineering that we will see all along the Swiftway routes.

If you look at the plans there is a great deal of road re-engineering going to be done, including bridge widenings, etc. Far from just a bit of new tarmac and coloured lines that some people are making out here!

xper wrote: »

* The Ifs are critical. Dublin's previous bendi bus experience illustrates perfectly why failing to use such vehicles appropriately leads to a bad reputation. It remains to be seen whether the implementation of Swiftway will fare better.

Yes and it will be very interesting to see if they can be implemented right this time. They are certainly used widely and very successfully throughout Europe, so if they can learn the lessons from previous mistakes and do it differently this time, it has the potential to be a vast improvement.

I will point out from what I've seen, the Irish civil service does seem to learn from past mistakes and largely does better the second time around. The best example of this is the dreadful way Telecom Eireann (Eircom) was privatised versus how the breakup of the ESB and Bord Gais are now being handled. Or the disaster that was the National Broadband Scheme, versus what looks to be planned under the new National Broadband Plan.

So lets hope this is another example of learning lessons from past mistakes. So far from reading the plans, it looks like it is well on the way to that.

Carawaystick · 19-03-2015 1:15pm

bk wrote: »

From what I've heard, the widening at the Cat & Cage while strictly speaking not part of Swiftway project, instead part of the new building in the College, it has very much been planned and designed with Swiftway in mind and is example of the sort of major road re-engineering that we will see all along the Swiftway routes.

It's not though, its providing a cycleway which is completely substandard compared to the nta's manual. There is not adequate seperation between cyclists and heavy vehicles.

bk · 19-03-2015 1:22pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's not though, its providing a cycleway which is completely substandard compared to the nta's manual. There is not adequate seperation between cyclists and heavy vehicles.

Actually it is a mix of both on road cycle lanes (which I agree are inadequate) and also lots of off road cycle lanes too where space allows.

That is a great pity, as this route is crying out for improved cycling infrastructure. However looking at the plans, I can't see anyway they could do the cycle lanes better, there unfortunately just isn't sufficient road space for all the conflicting requirements.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 3:51pm

Just to address the standing issue. There is an enormous difference in comfort standards in standing on a train or tram and standing on a bus, articulated or otherwise.

Trains and trams are designed for carrying standees and provide a smooth journey on rails, stopping only at stations/stops.

Standing for 30 minutes + on an articulated vehicle on roads is a completely different experience, which will certainly not be anything close to being as smooth as a train or tram (there will be plenty of jumps and jolts) and which will inevitably be stopping and starting more frequently at junctions and stops.

As I said the NTA predict people will be standing from Swords to the city centre in their documentation. This is hardly an improvement.

It's like comparing apples with oranges - they are completely different experiences.

The articulated vehicles are suited for trips of 25-30 minutes of the city centre with no more than 15 minutes standing. Large double deck vehicles are much more suited to longer journeys offering much higher standards of comfort, given it has a large number of seats compared to the 50 odd seats each articulated vehicle will have.

dowlingm · 19-03-2015 4:21pm

Ottawa uses some bendy buses (D60LF/D60LFR) for their route between the airport and downtown, about 16km. Most of that is on fully segregated busway though. They work well enough for the trips I've done.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 4:33pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Ottawa uses some bendy buses (D60LF/D60LFR) for their route between the airport and downtown, about 16km. Most of that is on fully segregated busway though. They work well enough for the trips I've done.

There is a huge difference though with what is proposed here in Dublin - these buses will be operating for their entirety on normal streets. That is not going to deliver the same level of comfort as a tram/train.

bk · 19-03-2015 5:18pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Ottawa uses some bendy buses (D60LF/D60LFR) for their route between the airport and downtown, about 16km. Most of that is on fully segregated busway though. They work well enough for the trips I've done.

Same in Krakow, bendy bus on normal streets, 16km to the airport, lots of people standing, ride felt fine and no one seemed to be too concerned about standing.

I think the need for a seat thing is way overplayed here in Dublin and is in fact a condition of the dreadful dwell times and thus very long journey times of Dublin Bus.

Cut journey times in half and people will be happy to stand in return for that.

BTW as a comparison, Dublin Airport is just 9km from O'Connell Street and Swords is just 13km from the same.

The bendy bus in Krakow with no priority measures can do the 16km to the airport in just 35 minutes! And with no special roads or priority measures.

lxflyer wrote: »

The articulated vehicles are suited for trips of 25-30 minutes of the city centre with no more than 15 minutes standing. Large double deck vehicles are much more suited to longer journeys offering much higher standards of comfort, given it has a large number of seats compared to the 50 odd seats each articulated vehicle will have.

One thing to consider is that while bendy buses have less seats, they have far more seats available to the people who need them most, the elderly and disabled.

The one of the big issues with double deckers is that the vast majority of seats on them are simply inaccessible to the people who need them most!

If you ever look at who is sitting upstairs on Dublin Bus it is almost always young, able bodied people, with a definite skew towards males. People who should have no problem at all standing for 30 minutes.

Bendy buses fix this problem as they are far more accessible to the elderly and disabled, who can now access 100% of the seats available, rather then less then 30%, while also increasing overall capacity with more people standing.

I'll also point out that multi-door bendy buses tend to have far greater utilisation of their actual capacity compared to double deckers. Anyone who has been on DB double deckers frequently will have numerous times experienced the situation where only half the seats upstairs are taken and the rear standing area downstairs is also empty, yet the driver thinks the bus is full because of the large number of people standing at the front of the bus and thus drives by potential passengers left at stops.

This tends not to happen on multi-door bendy buses as it is much easier to see empty seats or standing space from outside and thus use a different door to access them. Also people are less likely to stand at just the front of the bus, as they can also exit via any of the doors.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 6:03pm

But we are not cutting journey times in half, and that needs to be appreciated.

The 33 bus gets from Abbey Street to Swords in 35-40 minutes as it is during the day and in about 45-55 in the peak periods.

And people get a seat!

In the off-peak most people will get a seat, but I'm focussing my comments on peak periods when the amount of elderly/disabled travellers are minimal, and there will be much larger numbers of standees than at present.

That is not an improvement.

Dublin Bus drivers can nowadays see clearly on every bus whether seats are taken upstairs or not - that situation has diminished dramatically since the installation of CCTV monitors in their cabs.

bk · 19-03-2015 6:21pm

lxflyer wrote: »

But we are not cutting journey times in half, and that needs to be appreciated.

Why not?

In Krakow they can cover the same distance in almost exactly twice the time, 16km in 35 minutes, with nothing but the improvements in dwell time due to the use of off bus ticketing and multi-door bendy buses.

The 33's scheduled journey time is about 50 minutes according to the DB website, that is a pretty terrible average speed of 15.6km/h

As a comparison the Krakow bus average speed is almost double that at 27.4KM/h

If that Krakow bus was doing the same 13km journey to Swords, it would do it in just 30 minutes. Pretty damn close to half the time.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 6:51pm

bk wrote: »

Why not?

In Krakow they can cover the same distance in almost exactly twice the time, 16km in 35 minutes, with nothing but the improvements in dwell time due to the use of off bus ticketing and multi-door bendy buses.

The 33's scheduled journey time is about 50 minutes according to the DB website, that is a pretty terrible average speed of 15.6km/h

As a comparison the Krakow bus average speed is almost double that at 27.4KM/h

If that Krakow bus was doing the same 13km journey to Swords, it would do it in just 30 minutes. Pretty damn close to half the time.

The journey time estimates on the Dublin Bus website are not scheduled journey times, and I'd put no faith in them whatsoever - a one fits all journey estimate isn't appropriate. Dublin Bus schedules have only two specific times on them - departure times from terminus and driver changeover times. But that's a different issue.

The only reasonable journey time estimates are those on the timetables which drive the RTPI and they are as I quoted above - 35-40 minutes off-peak and 45-55 minutes at peak. At certain times the 33 can do that journey in 30 minutes off-peak as I've experienced.

Dublin BRT is not going to do it in half that time. It's supposed to take 35 minutes to get to O'Connell Bridge per their own documentation.

To be clear I am not against BRT, far from it, but I think that the wrong vehicles are being used. Use articulated buses for short journeys, and tri-axle double decks with multiple doors for the longer ones. I really cannot see why anyone would object to that? They both have the same overall capacity but, the double decks have more seats.

I really don't see the point in constantly quoting what happens in Poland - this is not Poland. It's Ireland - a completely different environment in terms of attitudes towards public transport amongst politicians, local authorities and the general public. It's pointless going on and on about what happens there as it is a completely different environment.

bk · 19-03-2015 7:07pm

Well 35 minutes is still significantly faster then 55 minutes. While not quiet cut in half, I'm sure the majority of people would be delighted to see their journey time reduced by 15 to 20 minutes.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 7:25pm

bk wrote: »

Well 35 minutes is still significantly faster then 55 minutes. While not quiet cut in half, I'm sure the majority of people would be delighted to see their journey time reduced by 15 to 20 minutes.

I am not for one minute disputing that - I was reeling in your slight exaggerations.

But what I'm really doing is questioning the appropriateness of the NTA's choice of vehicle when a perfectly adequate and more comfortable option exists that will offer more seats and the same journey time.

cgcsb · 19-03-2015 11:43pm

bk wrote: »

Well 35 minutes is still significantly faster then 55 minutes. While not quiet cut in half, I'm sure the majority of people would be delighted to see their journey time reduced by 15 to 20 minutes.

A journey from Swords to the city centre will not be 35 minutes at peak time. The drawings indicate left side of the road running, and sharing road space with left turning vehicles, i.e. No journey time improvements bar a fancy new fly over at santry it'll be essentially identical to the present situation. Perhaps also a slight reduction in dwell time owing to a lack of driver interaction.

LXFlyer · 19-03-2015 11:49pm

cgcsb wrote: »

A journey from Swords to the city centre will not be 35 minutes at peak time. The drawings indicate left side of the road running, and sharing road space with left turning vehicles, i.e. No journey time improvements bar a fancy new fly over at santry it'll be essentially identical to the present situation. Perhaps also a slight reduction in dwell time owing to a lack of driver interaction.

That isn't right either. There will be far less stops - so that will cut down dwell time significantly.

There are extended bus lanes proposed as well including some bus only sections of the route.

xper · 20-03-2015 1:11am

lxflyer wrote: »

Just to address the standing issue. There is an enormous difference in comfort standards in standing on a train or tram and standing on a bus, articulated or otherwise.

Trains and trams are designed for carrying standees and provide a smooth journey on rails, stopping only at stations/stops.

Ah come on now, trains are one thing but saying trams only stop at stations/stops? You know that's not true. There's been many a sudden lurch while standing on the Luas when some dozy car driver or death-wish pedestrian has prompted a quick application of the brakes.

What modern trams do have is very good ride comfort levels. Mutiple bogies running on continuous rail with smooth acceleration and braking (numpties allowing) will ensure that. To achieve something similar on an articulated bus, you need a high quality vehicle design, smooth road surface, enforcement of reserved road space and plus high driving standards. And you need to maintain all that year after year.

Will we get the investment, financial and otherwise, to do this in Dublin?

lxflyer wrote: »

... I really don't see the point in constantly quoting what happens in Poland - this is not Poland. It's Ireland - a completely different environment in terms of attitudes towards public transport amongst politicians, local authorities and the general public. It's pointless going on and on about what happens there as it is a completely different environment.

In terms of attitudes, yes, Ireland is different ... And wrong ... And each new transport project is a new opportunity, usually missed to date, to start changing those attitudes. But in terms of the practical considerations of providing public transport, what can be learned by comparison with transport systems in other cities is of course utterly relevant.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2015 9:31am

xper wrote: »

In terms of attitudes, yes, Ireland is different ... And wrong ... And each new transport project is a new opportunity, usually missed to date, to start changing those attitudes. But in terms of the practical considerations of providing public transport, what can be learned by comparison with transport systems in other cities is of course utterly relevant.

It's fine to refer to it - but constantly repeating it just gets tiresome.

cgcsb · 20-03-2015 10:20am

lxflyer wrote: »

That isn't right either. There will be far less stops - so that will cut down dwell time significantly.

There are extended bus lanes proposed as well including some bus only sections of the route.

reducing the number of stops doesn't make a drop of difference when your BRT bus gets stuck behind a normal bus at a conventional bus stop.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2015 10:24am

cgcsb wrote: »

reducing the number of stops doesn't make a drop of difference when your BRT bus gets stuck behind a normal bus at a conventional bus stop.

Have you looked at the detailed plans? I strongly suspect from that comment that you have not.

All of the conventional bus stops are recessed in from the bus lane.

cgcsb · 20-03-2015 10:58am

lxflyer wrote: »

Have you looked at the detailed plans? I strongly suspect from that comment that you have not.

All of the conventional bus stops are recessed in from the bus lane.

Yes I have. Few can handle more than one bus at a time and bus drivers tend to avoid using the existing ones correctly. Too much hass pulling in and pulling out properly.

LXFlyer · 20-03-2015 11:47am

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes I have. Few can handle more than one bus at a time and bus drivers tend to avoid using the existing ones correctly. Too much hass pulling in and pulling out properly.

Well I'm not sure using the existing bays as a basis for making a statement that BRT services will be delayed is realistic.

Many current stops are badly designed, not allowing sufficient space for buses to pull in properly and straighten up. One would certainly hope that would not be the case going forward, and the plans tend to suggest that they won't be.

At the same time there will inevitably fewer conventional buses on the Swords Corridor as most vehicles will be BRT, so I'm not sure you're going to have a particular need for more space than one vehicle.

South of Drumcondra where there will be more conventional buses the bus bays are designed for multiple vehicles.

Dyr · 20-03-2015 11:56am

lxflyer wrote: »

I really don't see the point in constantly quoting what happens in Poland - this is not Poland. It's Ireland - a completely different environment in terms of attitudes towards public transport amongst politicians, local authorities and the general public.

I'd say the Irish attitude towards public transport initiatives has been quite good, luas, dublin bikes or even back to the dart. Our attitude to buses however, have been shaped by decades of dealing with dublin bus and bus eireann..and it shows

There's no reason we can't be like krakow or any other european city, dublin city is not a unique little snowflake.

Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

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