Bullying by boss

jiminho

davo10 wrote: »

5 mins per day is 3 days per year, a lot or work gets done in 3 days, if you feel is unreasonable, you tell your boss you want 3 extra holiday days per year, see what he/she says.

This will be my last response because I think people are now arguing for the sake of it. Technically he'll be working a net 10 mins per day so approx. 5.5 days per year extra. Your logic is skewed also because you think a task can be completed or started in 5 mins. If I start a task at 4:55, il probably have to read over it again to essentially reset the clock the following day. If it takes a contractor 3 days to pave a driveway, do you think he'll complete that driveway within a year if he only works on it 5 mins per day? Probably not because he needs to mobilize and demobilize every day. I'd personally hate to work for anyone here if they had the same attitude as the boss in question or perhaps you guys are already being treated this way in your own job. In which case.....sucks to be you 😀

davo10

TheBlock wrote: »

It's actually 20 hours a year based on 5 x 5 x 48 weeks (allowing for holidays). You are also leaving out the fact that he works 60 hours a year by starting early every morning (15 mins x 5 days a 48 weeks).

If a manager can't allow this their not much of a people manger in my book. Having managed staff for over 15 Years this little bit of flexibility tends to be very much appreciated and comes back in spades.

Not to be pedantic but 20 hours is just shy of 3 days assuming 1 hour for lunch. You can start an hour early if you like but if that is not contracted/office/working hours, it means bo diddly. If a manager allows an employee to dictate working time, he/she has to allow it for all, that doesn't make for much of a manager. OP wants to leave 5 mins early, someone else wants to leave 10 mins early, someone else 15. Great management, contracted time/hours are there for a reason.

davo10

jiminho wrote: »

This will be my last response because I think people are now arguing for the sake of it. Technically he'll be working a net 10 mins per day so approx. 5.5 days per year extra. Your logic is skewed also because you think a task can be completed or started in 5 mins. If I start a task at 4:55, il probably have to read over it again to essentially reset the clock the following day. If it takes a contractor 3 days to pave a driveway, do you think he'll complete that driveway within a year if he only works on it 5 mins per day? Probably not because he needs to mobilize and demobilize every day. I'd personally hate to work for anyone here if they had the same attitude as the boss in question or perhaps you guys are already being treated this way in your own job. In which case.....sucks to be you 😀

Sucks to be unemployed because you wouldn't work the hours you are contracted to work. But hell, there are lots more who will.

Wabbit Ears

an old saying that holds true, No none notices what time you arrive, they only notice what time you leave...

TheBlock

davo10 wrote: »

Not to be pedantic but 20 hours is just shy of 3 days assuming 1 hour for lunch. You can start an hour early if you like but if that is not contracted/office/working hours, it means bo diddly. If a manager allows an employee to dictate working time, he/she has to allow it for all, that doesn't make for much of a manager. OP wants to leave 5 mins early, someone else wants to leave 10 mins early, someone else 15. Great management, contracted time/hours are there for a reason.

See that's not my style of management or thankfully that of any of the managers I have worked for. I trust my staff to complete assigned workload and tasks in good time. I don't clock watch. Any overtime worked is very much appreciated by me and means more that "Bo Diddley". I'd like to think staff don't just clock in at 9 and out at 5 especially if work needs require some flexibility. Flexibility needs to go both ways. As a Manager I can deal with staff on an individual level and make individual informal agreements with staff all the time on the basis that these can and will be reviewed based on business needs.

Anyway, we haven't heard from the OP if his son is on a contract with fixed working hours 9 - 5 which are very unusual now. It sounds to me like his son needs to have a char with his and work out an arrangement that suits both.

TheBlock

Wabbit Ears wrote: »

an old saying that holds true, No none notices what time you arrive, they only notice what time you leave...

That is/was very true. However I think most people are moving away from this clock watching to a more task/work based approach. I'd don't like people sitting at their desk till hours. If that's the case they're either overloaded or unproductive/unorganised.

davo10

TheBlock wrote: »

See that's not my style of management or thankfully that of any of the managers I have worked for. I trust my staff to complete assigned workload and tasks in good time. I don't clock watch. Any overtime worked is very much appreciated by me and means more that "Bo Diddley". I'd like to think staff don't just clock in at 9 and out at 5 especially if work needs require some flexibility. Flexibility needs to go both ways. As a Manager I can deal with staff on an individual level and make individual informal agreements with staff all the time on the basis that these can and will be reviewed based on business needs.

Anyway, we haven't heard from the OP if his son is on a contract with fixed working hours 9 - 5 which are very unusual now. It sounds to me like his son needs to have a char with his and work out an arrangement that suits both.

That is a great post. Every job is different and specific. The problem arises when jobs are time sensitive, for example there may be no benefit to an employer to an employee coming in earlier than their contracted hours. The main issue tends to be that what applies to one applies to all, if one employee is allowed to finish early, then all can argue that they should be allowed. In my job doors open at 9am close at 5, if someone wants to start at 8:55, then it is of no benefit as doors open at 9

Again, this seems to be a blaise irish mentality, we want work but on our own terms, is contracted terms are x and y, then what is the problem?

Allyall

Afroshack wrote: »

Yeah but where do you draw the line in terms of flexibility? One person wants to go 5 mins early every day, then the train times change and it becomes 10 minutes earlier. Then a second person wants to do same, then a third, then the train times change again a year later and suddenly you might have 4/5 people operating on their own flexitime, coming in and leaving when they want, when everyone else is contracted to 9-5 (could also be the office opening hours when they deal with the public so a portion of the office making themselves unavailable piles the extra work onto others)

That escalated pretty quickly..
Also, if that train moved to an earlier time, wouldn't the later train also? meaning it wouldn't be much of a problem as he'd probably happily wait the 20 minutes for a train as opposed to waiting the hour currently, because he can't leave 4-5 minutes early..
In any employment I've been in, I've never seen any any boss be that much of a stickler to the timetable, especially if the employee is young/just entering the workforce, and running for a train.

irishguy1983

TheBlock wrote: »

See that's not my style of management or thankfully that of any of the managers I have worked for. I trust my staff to complete assigned workload and tasks in good time. I don't clock watch. Any overtime worked is very much appreciated by me and means more that "Bo Diddley". I'd like to think staff don't just clock in at 9 and out at 5 especially if work needs require some flexibility. Flexibility needs to go both ways. As a Manager I can deal with staff on an individual level and make individual informal agreements with staff all the time on the basis that these can and will be reviewed based on business needs.

Anyway, we haven't heard from the OP if his son is on a contract with fixed working hours 9 - 5 which are very unusual now. It sounds to me like his son needs to have a char with his and work out an arrangement that suits both.

I'd imagine this guy doesn't have high staff turnover - you'll get a lot more from people if you work like this

mfceiling

Mikjayfay wrote: »

Hello I'm new to this, My son has a problem at work... I will give you a rough background so you can follow where we are at.
Originally my son started work at a web design company fairly close to home and I was picking him up and dropping him off.
The company then moved a distance away and he needed to get the train, which added to his costs... ie 100 per month. nothing we could do about it he needed to comute.
He gets into work 10/15 minutes early and gets on with it. coming home the train is at 5.02pm and he finishes at 5pm...he has been finishing at 4.55pm so he can run to the train station and catch the 5.02 train.
His bosses are being assholes (as far as I'm concerned) and insisting he finishes at 5pm. which means he has to wait an hour for the next train. Other staff are being treated more favourably and get away with things cos they are "friendly" with bosses.
This is just a small part of his problems at work, but it is the straw that is breaking the camal back as far as he is concerned.
Today he came home and said thats it he quits tommorow...not even going in...
The company is not a brilliant employer but its been a job for the last two years.. no union membership, pension etc... and the money isn't that great for what he does... Sorry to ramble but the lads in a state and needs to sort this.

I had a friend who used to do this and the boss was very inflexible in letting him leave a few minutes earlier every thursday to collect his daughter.

He said f*ck it and just sat in his van until 7.58 every morning instead of 7.40 or 7.45...boss man wasn't happy and actually banged his van window one morning, asking him "are you coming in or what?"...his reply "i'm paid from 8, not a quarter too".

davo10

mfceiling wrote: »

I had a friend who used to do this and the boss was very inflexible in letting him leave a few minutes earlier every thursday to collect his daughter.

He said f*ck it and just sat in his van until 7.58 every morning instead of 7.40 or 7.45...boss man wasn't happy and actually banged his van window one morning, asking him "are you coming in or what?"...his reply "i'm paid from 8, not a quarter too".

That's a fair response, presuming your friend is ready at his/her work "station" at 8am not just walking through the door.

jiminho

davo10 wrote: »

That is a great post. Every job is different and specific. The problem arises when jobs are time sensitive, for example there may be no benefit to an employer to an employee coming in earlier than their contracted hours. The main issue tends to be that what applies to one applies to all, if one employee is allowed to finish early, then all can argue that they should be allowed. In my job doors open at 9am close at 5, if someone wants to start at 8:55, then it is of no benefit as doors open at 9

Again, this seems to be a blaise irish mentality, we want work but on our own terms, is contracted terms are x and y, then what is the problem?

davo10: can I ask what your job is?

davo10

jiminho wrote: »

davo10: can I ask what your job is?

Does it matter any more than the job you work at?

mfceiling

davo10 wrote: »

That's a fair response, presuming your friend is ready at his/her work "station" at 8am not just walking through the door.

He was...and the boss used to pull out the classic "we're all working late tonight" at least once a week...he never mentioned paying the overtime!!

pablo128

davo10 wrote: »

That's a fair response, presuming your friend is ready at his/her work "station" at 8am not just walking through the door.

Not like you then, as your doors open at 9, don't they? What time do you actually start doing some work at, seeing as you physically can't enter your workplace before 9?

davo10

pablo128 wrote: »

Not like you then, as your doors open at 9, don't they? What time do you actually start doing some work at, seeing as you physically can't enter your workplace before 9?

"doors open at 9" is a figure of speech, it relates to the public/customers, in other words trading starts at 9. Doors are open for staff earlier, in most jobs staff entrances open well before trading hours, or staff have keys/fobs/cards/codes to get in.

My point being, if you work in a job that trading/service begins at a certain time, be it IT/retail/entertainment/trades person , then coming in early may not make any difference to your employer whereas allowing all staff (if you allow one and not another, this leads to problems with staff) to leave early may have an impact on work done.

OP can ask by all means, but there is no reason to feel entitled to leave work early every single day, nor should OP nor anyone else feel bitter for not being allowed. He is contracted to work between certain hours and any deviation from that should only be with agreement from employer. What's the big deal with getting a later bus?

Crumbs868

he should have gotten prior agreement from his manager to finish early and they are under no obligation to oblige.

It's disruptive to the rest of the office. ie shuffling with jackets drawers etc when everyone else is still working and trying to finish things. Also leaving 5 mins earlier means stopping work 10 mins early to allow time to power down etc. Plus it gives the impression of clock watching so could even mean "switching off" 20 mins early because it's not worth staring a new task.

Saying all of the above any good manager would have nipped it in the bud earlier on and not let it continue if it annoys them rather than letting it linger and interfere with their working relationship

Teyla Emmagan

Crumbs868 wrote: »

he should have gotten prior agreement from his manager to finish early and they are under no obligation to oblige.

It's disruptive to the rest of the office. ie shuffling with jackets drawers etc when everyone else is still working and trying to finish things. Also leaving 5 mins earlier means stopping work 10 mins early to allow time to power down etc. Plus it gives the impression of clock watching so could even mean "switching off" 20 mins early because it's not worth staring a new task.

It takes two seconds to lock a PC. And who sits looking at their computer when it's 'powering down'? I turn my computer off for bank holiday weekends and weeks away, not otherwise. Also I think you'd have to be looking for distraction if someone putting a jacket on behind you was an issue!

I have never understood places with really inflexible working hours because I have never worked in one. They're alien to me. Where I work (in IT like the OP's son) people start anywhere between 7 and 10 and leave from 3 onwards. There is a constant flow of people but it's not distracting or noisy. People are usually gone before you know it. Our place is managed on a 'the work must be done' rather than a 'all seats must be filled during these hours' basis though. But increasingly employers in my experience give more flexible working hours now. They have to be more family oriented to get the staff. I know there are jobs where you absolutely have to be there to answer the phones between certain hours etc, but in my industry anyway that sort of rigidity doesn't exist anymore.

davo10

Teyla Emmagan wrote: »

It takes two seconds to lock a PC. And who sits looking at their computer when it's 'powering down'? I turn my computer off for bank holiday weekends and weeks away, not otherwise. Also I think you'd have to be looking for distraction if someone putting a jacket on behind you was an issue!

I have never understood places with really inflexible working hours because I have never worked in one. They're alien to me. Where I work (in IT like the OP's son) people start anywhere between 7 and 10 and leave from 3 onwards. There is a constant flow of people but it's not distracting or noisy. People are usually gone before you know it. Our place is managed on a 'the work must be done' rather than a 'all seats must be filled during these hours' basis though. But increasingly employers in my experience give more flexible working hours now. They have to be more family oriented to get the staff. I know there are jobs where you absolutely have to be there to answer the phones between certain hours etc, but in my industry anyway that sort of rigidity doesn't exist anymore.

That's fair enough and sounds great, but that is not the point of the thread. All working environments work differently, but OP feels "bullied" because his boss won't allow him to leave earlier than his contracted finishing time. If all employees have the same working conditions like in your place, then someone finishing earlier than others is not an issue, but if ops place of work runs on set hours for everyone, then each employee can't decide to come in/leave at times different to everyone else. Different companies have different work practices, but you have to work as per contract, if you don't, then it isn't bullying, it's time to find a job in your company.

SameDiff

davo10 wrote: »

That is a great post. Every job is different and specific. The problem arises when jobs are time sensitive, for example there may be no benefit to an employer to an employee coming in earlier than their contracted hours. The main issue tends to be that what applies to one applies to all, if one employee is allowed to finish early, then all can argue that they should be allowed. In my job doors open at 9am close at 5, if someone wants to start at 8:55, then it is of no benefit as doors open at 9

Again, this seems to be a blaise irish mentality, we want work but on our own terms, is contracted terms are x and y, then what is the problem?

Don't be so ridiculous. They're insisting he stays for five lousy minutes to be dicks.

If they were decent employers, they would organise a shorter lunch for him, or work later one day a week, or something else.

We don't all work in a cobblers or whatever the hell it is you do

davo10

SameDiff wrote: »

Don't be so ridiculous. They're insisting he stays for five lousy minutes to be dicks.

If they were decent employers, they would organise a shorter lunch for him, or work later one day a week, or something else.

We don't all work in a cobblers or whatever the hell it is you do

Nope, their insisting he works his contracted hours, that's all, it may not be to every bodies liking, but it certainly isn't bullying. Same rules must apply to all, if one changes time, all must be allowed. Someone else might want to work through lunch and finish an hour early, if there are already staff covering that hour, what benefit is that to the employer?

I could be a cobbler, or owner of a company with a turnover of millions, what difference does that make?

SameDiff

davo10 wrote: »

Nope, their insisting he works his contracted hours, that's all. Same rules must apply to all, if one changes time, all must be allowed. Someone else might want to work through lunch and finish an hour early, if there are already staff covering that hour, what benefit is that to the employer?

I could be a cobbler, or owner of a company with a turnover of millions, what difference does that make?

You sound like one of the characters lampooned in Carry On At Your Convenience with your 1970s approach to management!!!!! Ridiculous!!!!!

anncoates

I work in IT for the last 13 years and have always been allowed flexibility re: time and myself allow it as long as the time is made up and the position doesn't require certain hours for example client facing roles.

I do agree that the kid needs to learn to suck it down a bit and accept the commute side plus fight his own battles but some of these my way or the highway managerial positions (refusing to let somebody go five minutes early if they've made up the time ?) are a little inflexible and outdated and not really conducive to staff morale IMO.

Soilse

I work in an area where its not time critical yet the industry is very rigid on set hours without any flexibility. There was a very very big deal made when I had to leave 10mins early one day to get a train to collect my car.

My point is the OPs son obviously works in this sort of inflexible industry and no amount of complaining is going to help him only add to his fustration. Like previously suggested a temporary early finish might work if son were to move. Id also like to know how ths was broached with employer if its not to employers advantage they wont even consider it. Otherwise he is going to have to accept, it its going to drive him nuts otherwise. Use it as time he can do something for himself, do a 20min run before bus turns up, walk to the next stop, go for a swim etc My point is accept it and find something to fill the time to his advantage because the employer does not want to change.

I worked for a company where it would take 90mins to get in and anything from 2 to 5hrs to get home, I kept my head down worked flat out and left on good terms when I had another job.

NSAman

So far all the discussion has been about a solution for the employee. Nothing has been said about the employee facilitating the employer.

Personally working set hours is alien to me. Many weeks I work far in excess of the 9 to 5 contracted. It all depends on the work load. Flexibility works both ways. Then again, my employers know that if I was to ask for time off, it is important. If I have to leave early, they know it is important to me.

Here we have a young lad, obviously mollycoddled, who has shown no flexibility but follows his own agenda. Sorry this is not inspiring confidence in his employers, that when the chips are down and there is an important job to be done, he is out the door at 4.55pm to catch a train... no wonder his manager is annoyed.

Teyla Emmagan

davo10 wrote: »

Nope, their insisting he works his contracted hours, that's all, it may not be to every bodies liking, but it certainly isn't bullying. Same rules must apply to all, if one changes time, all must be allowed. Someone else might want to work through lunch and finish an hour early, if there are already staff covering that hour, what benefit is that to the employer?

But he is a web developer? Probably the only one they have. It's not like he is working on the security desk and there is already somebody working on the security desk at lunchtime so it doesn't make sense to have both of them there.

I don't think the OP's son is being bullied but I do think the employer is being completely and stupidly inflexible here. And that their attitude is going to lose them an employee. But good enough for them.

davo10

SameDiff wrote: »

You sound like one of the characters lampooned in Carry On At Your Convenience with your 1970s approach to management!!!!! Ridiculous!!!!!

It's not my approach to management in this case, it's the OPs employer's, which is pertinent. I couldn't care less if you or OP works early or late, the point is that OPs is contracted to work to a certain time but he does not want to. Try and focus on the OPs predicament.

BizzyC

jiminho wrote: »

We're talking 5 minutes here not 5 hours besides unless it's critical , if someone came to me with work to do at 4:55pm, I'd say sure, I'll take a look at it tomorrow. 99% of tasks cannot be completed in 5 mins and if a critical task does get given to him within that 5 min period, I'm sure it will take at good bit longer and he'll be looking at the next train anyway. I think everyone is getting a bit tight arsed here and very unreasonable.

You completely missed what I was saying.
That works for your office, not mine.

I run a support team, for us the last 10 minutes of the coverage window are the most critical as people are pushing to get business through the systems before the window closes for the day. In my case I simply could not afford to allow someone to leave during this time as it's the highest risk point in the day, saying that no one I work with would consider it as they know how much risk we manage during that time.

anncoates

Don't think anybody is saying people shouldn't work hard or extra as required but things crop up. I have to leave early occasionally for stuff ranging from my kids to car repairs but always make up the time. In fact as a result of the flexibility shown to me, I'm the first to work extra hours when needed.

If I had some sergeant major type on my case for it I'd get another job. Fair enough the company will get another person in but nobody wants a constant outflow of experienced skilled staff because of needless demotivation.

I'd advise OP that his son needs to work by their rules until he finds another job and can leave on good terms.

beauf

If its a web design company it's likely he's not allowed to leave 5 mins early but is expected to work free over time on a ad hoc basis.

Solution is to find a better job.