The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

Mickey Mike

There's nothing on 252kHz, Algerian radio used to come in fairly strong in the late evening, for the last few nights there has been nothing. BBC Radio 4 on 198kHz and a Danish station on 234kHz are clear enough. Very strange indeed.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

There's nothing on 252kHz, Algerian radio used to come in fairly strong in the late evening, for the last few nights there has been nothing. BBC Radio 4 on 198kHz and a Danish station on 234kHz are clear enough. Very strange indeed.

I'm getting BBC R4 on 198 & RTL on 234 with a good strong signal. Weak signal on 270 which I'm assuming is the Czech station. Like yourself, I'm not getting anything on 252.

Mickey Mike

rathfarnhamlad wrote: »

I'm getting BBC R4 on 198 & RTL on 234 with a good strong signal. Weak signal on 270 which I'm assuming is the Czech station. Like yourself, I'm not getting anything on 252.

And as far as I know 270kHz is closing at the end of the year, a good slot for Radio1 to move to.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

And as far as I know 270kHz is closing at the end of the year, a good slot for Radio1 to move to.

Yes, I have heard that Czech Radio 1 is vacating LW at the end of the year. I vaguely remember reading a while back that the current transmitter was installed only in 2014 as a replacement for the old Tesla rig but don't quote me on that.

Agreed that it'd be an ideal location on the dial for RTE R1 to relocate to but let's face it, it ain't gonna happen.

I was reading this article about RTL during the week: https://www.radioeins.de/programm/sendungen/medienmagazin/radio_news/beitraege/2020/luxemburg.html

Is RTL on 234 the only non-SW AM station from mainland Europe which still has a consistently usable daytime signal into Ireland & the UK on a run-of-the-mill kitchen radio?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Seems the only thing on air from french broadcasters on LW is an automatic time signal for clocks, carried in the old France Inter frequency. That used to be one of the most powerful signals in Europe at 2000kW during the day on 162kHz

FuzzyThinking

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Seems the only thing on air from french broadcasters on LW is an automatic time signal for clocks, carried in the old France Inter frequency. That used to be one of the most powerful signals in Europe at 2000kW during the day on 162kHz

No doubt they'll try shut down time signals too, they tried this in the USA but I think they backed down, it would have made millions of devices, watches included useless or rather you'd have to keep manually setting them.

marno21

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No doubt they'll try shut down time signals too, they tried this in the USA but I think they backed down, it would have made millions of devices, watches included useless or rather you'd have to keep manually setting them.

162 is used in quite a few industrial settings in France apparently so less likely to be shutdown.

Surprising it’s still at 800kW. Very high power for just a carrier even if it is down from 2MW as it was when it was a broadcast TX.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

From what I gather the main user of it in France may be time signals for earlier generations of electricity meters to switch rates and also huge numbers of clocks and ticket validation machines used by the SNCF (French Rail) and various parking meters and so on.

As those devices are retired it will eventually be less relevant and probably will shut down, but it’ll be a long while yet.

Mickey Mike

It looks very much like Algerian radio 252 is off air for maintenance too, they are hardly closed by any account.

I'm surprised that no anorak has gone down to Summerhill and uploaded some videos of 2rn at work.

marno21

Mickey Mike wrote: »

It looks very much like Algerian radio 252 is off air for maintenance too, they are hardly closed by any account.

No carrier on 252 atm. Must be off air rather than low power.

Johns nephew

Johns nephew wrote: »

I'm surprised that no anorak has gone down to Summerhill and uploaded some videos of 2rn at work.

Maybe they did & couldn't see any activity or evidence of same...

Mickey Mike

Algerian radio back on again playing great music, Rick Astley, Modonna and Bon Jovi, really good signal.
If long wave means anything to RTE, they'd change to different frequency cause this is ferice interference.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Algerian radio back on again playing great music, Rick Astley, Modonna and Bon Jovi, really good signal.
If long wave means anything to RTE, they'd change to different frequency cause this is ferice interference.

RTE would have to change up or down 10 Khz at least and it's not that easy to do.

Not going to happen, my guess is they'll find some excuse not to fire back up 252.

Algeria 1.5 Mw day and 0.7 Mw at night, vs RTE 150 Kw day 60 Kw night, that's ridiculous.

Usually there's an agreement through the ITU in regard to frequency allocation ? surely there was another frequency that 252 Khz they could have used ?

But strong signal tonight, if they play good music I look forward to listening to it when RTE cease broadcasting on 252 Khz

Anyone else notice how poor BBC R4 sounds on 198 Khz tonight ? not the first time I noticed, perhaps they've turned down the power ? they are on borrowed time, they said next time a valve dies that's it, 198 Khz is gone.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

RTE would have to change up or down 10 Khz at least and it's not that easy to do.

Not going to happen, my guess is they'll find some excuse not to fire back up 252.

Algeria 1.5 Mw day and 0.7 Mw at night, vs RTE 150 Kw day 60 Kw night, that's ridiculous.

Usually there's an agreement through the ITU in regard to frequency allocation ? surely there was another frequency that 252 Khz they could have used ?

But strong signal tonight, if they play good music I look forward to listening to it when RTE cease broadcasting on 252 Khz

Anyone else notice how poor BBC R4 sounds on 198 Khz tonight ? not the first time I noticed, perhaps they've turned down the power ? they are on borrowed time, they said next time a valve dies that's it, 198 Khz is gone.

Are you referring to the article in The Guardian (I think) from about 10 years ago? That story was quickly refuted by numerous ex-BBC network engineers. Thales can build more valves to order apparently, so the whole thing was just a cover story which was fabricated in the hope that everyone would buy it.

As for Algeria, it has better music programming than most stations in this country!

DavidJC

252 very clear tonight. I honestly thought from the signal and music it might be RTE Radio 1 but a quick check on FM confirmed otherwise.
Think maybe they did some work on the Chaine 3 transmitter while they were off sir.

But then so is RTL sounding strong on 234khz.

R4 198 sounds perfect to me.

DavidJC

DavidJC wrote: »

252 very clear tonight. I honestly thought from the signal and music it might be RTE Radio 1 but a quick check on FM confirmed otherwise.
Think maybe they did some work on the Chaine 3 transmitter while they were off sir.

But then so is RTL sounding strong on 234khz.

R4 198 sounds perfect to me.

3 strong signals & zero chance of any of them playing a Cardi B song? I like it!

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

Algeria 1.5 Mw day and 0.7 Mw at night

Jaysus, 1.5MW to basically rickroll north Africa and much of Europe...

marno21

Here’s what I can receive atm on a bedside radio in Cork

162 - TDF time signal
189 - RUV Ras 2
198 - BBC R4
207 - RUV Ras 2 (stronger than 189)
225 - Polski Radio Program
234 - RTL
252 - Chaine 3

198, 234 and 252 a cut above the rest

rathfarnhamlad

rathfarnhamlad wrote: »

Are you referring to the article in The Guardian (I think) from about 10 years ago? That story was quickly refuted by numerous ex-BBC network engineers. Thales can build more valves to order apparently, so the whole thing was just a cover story which was fabricated in the hope that everyone would buy it.

Could have been that article but I think there were other sources but happy days if they can keep making the Valves. But one thing for sure is that BBC R4 does not have the signal at night it used to be booming in but last night there was a lot of distortion and the signal strength seemed well down.

rathfarnhamlad wrote: »

As for Algeria, it has better music programming than most stations in this country!

.

I'm not sure if it applies to LW/MW but the state interferes too much with radio stations dictating the genres at different times of days etc + the content in many cases, they have to "cater for all" This is why KFM and KCLR are plagued with one man Irish Country so called artists, because they have to have certain coverage for Irish music. This is why 2FM play ipad created junk is because they have to cater for the youth who probably don't listen to that muck anyway. All mad stuff but State control over Radio is never good especially when you read about "enforcement" on their website......

ClosedAccountFuzzy

It’s odd how it’s mostly the Midlands stations and Highland that are “plagued” by country music. The likes of the Dublin and Cork City stations aren’t at all.

I can only assume there’s a demand for county music in some areas.

In general I’m finding I don’t listen to radio nearly as much as I did. I haven’t tuned into anything other than RTE Radio 1 or Today FM for current affairs and in terms of music, the shows need to be really well curated, John Creedon for example.

I’ve zero interest in listening to play listed garbage when I have Spotify etc

Podcasts are making up a much higher % of my listening than they used to too.

I just think radio listening habits are changing rapidly and I wonder if the JNLR modelling even captures that.

However, to get back to LW, I’d like to see the costs vs the number of listeners. If they’re not stacking up anymore, I’d rather see the money going into programme making than being sunk into obsolete technologies.

DavidJC

Good list.. 207 is Iceland? Could just about hear last night.

252khz surprisingly still audible on the way to work at 9am today..
Not listenable but can hear French conversation.
1.5mw is incredible power.

I wondered how far south into Africa or towards North East Brazil it carries at night.
I haven't found a Web swr tuner in those countries with a suitable LW antenna connected. Probably no interest outside of Europe/N Africa

marno21 wrote: »

Here’s what I can receive atm on a bedside radio in Cork

162 - TDF time signal
189 - RUV Ras 2
198 - BBC R4
207 - RUV Ras 2 (stronger than 189)
225 - Polski Radio Program
234 - RTL
252 - Chaine 3

198, 234 and 252 a cut above the rest

doughnut2000

Apart from LW radio enthusiasts there doesn't appear to be much interest whatsoever.

This thread seems to contain a lot of strongly held opinions about personal taste in music.

dxhound2005

marno21 wrote: »

Here’s what I can receive atm on a bedside radio in Cork

162 - TDF time signal
189 - RUV Ras 2
198 - BBC R4
207 - RUV Ras 2 (stronger than 189)
225 - Polski Radio Program
234 - RTL
252 - Chaine 3

198, 234 and 252 a cut above the rest

I also get Czech on 270 and Denmark 243. Denmark is on air only at certain times, Sunday mornings being one. This video was made in Oxford January 2021.

FuzzyThinking

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

It’s odd how it’s mostly the Midlands stations and Highland that are “plagued” by country music. The likes of the Dublin and Cork City stations aren’t at all.

I can only assume there’s a demand for county music in some areas.

In general I’m finding I don’t listen to radio nearly as much as I did. I haven’t tuned into anything other than RTE Radio 1 or Today FM for current affairs and in terms of music, the shows need to be really well curated, John Creedon for example.

I’ve zero interest in listening to play listed garbage when I have Spotify etc

Podcasts are making up a much higher % of my listening than they used to too.

I just think radio listening habits are changing rapidly and I wonder if the JNLR modelling even captures that.

However, to get back to LW, I’d like to see the costs vs the number of listeners. If they’re not stacking up anymore, I’d rather see the money going into programme making than being sunk into obsolete technologies.

I love country music, just not that junk they're churning out these days, it's not Country.

DavidJC

DavidJC wrote: »

Good list.. 207 is Iceland? Could just about hear last night.

252khz surprisingly still audible on the way to work at 9am today..
Not listenable but can hear French conversation.
1.5mw is incredible power.

I wondered how far south into Africa or towards North East Brazil it carries at night.
I haven't found a Web swr tuner in those countries with a suitable LW antenna connected. Probably no interest outside of Europe/N Africa

Atlantic 252 could be heard in Brazil at night back in the day when it was at full power.

doughnut2000

The sound quality isn't very good for music, or for voice. I don't see mass market appeal for listening to this.

doughnut2000

doughnut2000 wrote: »

The sound quality isn't very good for music, or for voice. I don't see mass market appeal for listening to this.

In fairness the radio speaker isn't going to give great Audio, those communications receivers are designed to be used with headphones or external speakers, the same as ham radio transceivers but never going to achieve Spotify quality for sure. Still I find it quite nice listening to the AM sound with proper headphones or speaker.

lw 252 is more than good enough for the likes of News Talk and most of the content on RTE Radio One, who wants to listen to Joe Duffy and all the whingers in High Quality Digital Audio ?

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Is relocating a LW transmitter's frequency simple? Or is there a whole load of hard-tuned components? I know some of the older ones used specifically built coils and stuff.

TAFKAlawhec

rathfarnhamlad wrote: »

Are you referring to the article in The Guardian (I think) from about 10 years ago? That story was quickly refuted by numerous ex-BBC network engineers. Thales can build more valves to order apparently, so the whole thing was just a cover story which was fabricated in the hope that everyone would buy it.

To the best of my knowledge, the BBC Radio 4 transmitter at Droitwich in the English midlands is a solid-state piece of equipment - it seems rather quaint to think that it is still running on equipment that uses valves but that would imply that the TX is more than at least 50 or 60 years old.

There's a fair bit of folklore concerning BBC R4 longwave, one other urban legend being that British Navy submarines are required to monitor are required to monitor its transmissions and that if its transmissions suddenly cease without warning they're to deem it that the country is under nuclear attack. This fails on several points - one is that a transmitter can suddenly go off the air without warning for several different reasons e.g. fire, mast collapse, not to mention that the 198kHz broadcasts are part of a 4 transmitter SFN. Second, if this were indeed true it would almost certainly be classified information with consequences to anyone that disclosed such information (so a case of "neither confirmed nor denied"), thirdly this potential method of monitoring transmissions would only work reliably within the vicinity of the UK - about 3000km at best. Finally, and most importantly, the cruising depth of most navy submarines whilst again being normally classified information is generally reckoned to be in the hundreds of meters below sea level - far too low to receive radio signals in the longwave broadcast band due to the skin effect concerning the conductivity of sea water. How deep it can go below the surface will depend mostly on the salinity of the water, but some old mathematics I seen a long time ago gave a rough figure of a depth of around 10-15 metres at 150 kHz before signal levels became useless. Communications to submarines traditionally relies on using much lower frequencies than these - the USA, Russia and India have all built transmission systems in the SLF range (30 to 300 Hz) though the USA have decommissioned theirs - these days the transmissions lie mainly in the VLF (3 to 30kHz) ranges which can go down in tens of metres below the surface that can be sensed by trailing wire aerials.

What is much less of a myth is what is generally keeping BBC Radio 4 going on LW other than simple broadcasting - that is contracts with electrical suppliers in the UK to maintain the teleswitching system that modulates the carrier to enable certain consumer electrical meters to switch to different tariffs at different times of the day like Economy 7 (yes, it still exists) in places where "smart meters" have yet to be installed - they're behind on the roll out to install these, at one point they were 18 months behind schedule and this was prior to the Covid-19 pandemic restrictions.