The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

Antenna

doughnut2000 wrote: »

Anyone called in about the loss of the signal?

Listeners using it probably know
There were announcements that broke over programming a number of times a day recently on 252, that it was going to be off for 2 months. LW Listeners must be well used to outages at this stage !

Mickey Mike

What's keeping LW252 alive is the elderly Irish in the UK, its now 7 years (2014) since the closing of LW was announced, I'm sure some of the new elderly can manage better with newer technology, whatever about the cost, we all have cost to deal with in our lives. I think LW might run until 2024, ten years after it was first announced, then the plug will be pulled for once and for all.

TAFKAlawhec

Re: 261 kHz. If you look at the allocations in the 1948 Copenhagen and 1975 Geneva frequency plans, you'll notice that the upper allocations of the longwave broadcasting band were all assigned to locations east of the old Iron Curtain.

In the 1948 plan, the highest frequency in use west of the curtain was 245kHz in Denmark - all above 250kHz were in the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Finland wrt broadcasting, while the UK had several maritime stations on 260 & 270 kHz. Indeed, the UK and Ireland (among numerous other western European countries, made noted reservations in the 1948 plan of the CS 272kHz allocation potentially affecting local aeronautical and maritime services, reserving the right to take action where appropriate.

Going to the 1975 frequency plan, both Ireland and Algeria were given 254 kHz allocations, but all other allocations in the LW band above this were again confined to east of the Iron Curtain (along with Israel whom were allocated 281 kHz (later 279) that I don't think they've ever used). I'm not sure of the use of maritime/aeronautical transmissions in western Europe at this point, but it's clear that all allocations were well away from the Atlantic. Interestingly, Ireland's 254kHz allocation in GE75 (listed as being allocated for Tullamore) isn't spec'd for 500kW day and 100kW night, but 500kW day omnidirectional and 500kW night directional - the directional restrictions mandating a 7db reduction in power in the directions of southern Finland and northern Algeria. A 7db reduction meant 1/5th ERP leading to 100kW - When it came to establishing Radio Tara/Atlantic 252, RTÉ obviously felt that there was little point in building a directional array for 500kW either for night time broadcasts, or to have the "night" directional restrictions also apply to daytime, and so constructed a single mast for the station, deciding to simply reduce to 100kW omnidirectional at night to meet the GE75 restrictions.

A bit more recently, there was the ill-fated Musicmann 279 project in the late 90's and 2000's which planned to establish a station on 279 kHz on the Isle of Mann - the technical conditions they had published stated that they too had night time restrictions - 500kW max ERP daytime but restricted to 10kW at night. No further explanation was given as to why their night time ERP was restricted to such power.

To summarise - there is possibly a bureaucratic reason why any possible suggestion of moving RTÉ Radio 1 from 252 to 261 kHz may not be easy, beyond requiring the general formalities of seeking co-operation from Germany and (likely) Bulgaria. Also, wrt 270kHz, as rathfarnhamlad pointed out, Czechia radio is due to turn off their broadcasts on that frequency soon - they're already running at significantly lower power (50kW) than their GE75 allocation (750kW).

Finally, in respect to night time interference on 252 kHz from Aligeria, it perhaps would have been better technically to have kept on the 729 kHz transmitter at Cork to provide an alternative AM listening frequency in the south, rather than turn it off at the same time as 567 kHz at Tullamore - however to the best of my knowledge urban sprawl had been creeping up towards the Cork MW site, and that the site was desirable to property developers, weighing the cost of the land that could be sold vs. the actual number of regular listeners to 729 kHz in the mid-00's.

Edit: Link to the ITU website of the Copenhagen 1948 Frequency plan - http://search.itu.int/history/HistoryDigitalCollectionDocLibrary/4.65.43.en.100.pdf - I don't have a link to the GE75 plan ATM.

Mickey Mike

RTE should have stayed on Medium Wave 567kHz only, just that alone and stop their nonsense. Tullamore transmission site was not old by any means, they wouldn't be one word today if they kept it alive and treasure it.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

What's keeping LW252 alive is the elderly Irish in the UK, its now 7 years (2014) since the closing of LW was announced, I'm sure some of the new elderly can manage better with newer technology, whatever about the cost, we all have cost to deal with in our lives. I think LW might run until 2024, ten years after it was first announced, then the plug will be pulled for once and for all.

MY Mother is 74 and she struggles with the Roberts internet radio I got her, it's the R100. She won't listen to radio via apps and I can imagine most of the 50+ in the U.K won't either. She can manage to get Mass no problem on youtube for herself and my Aunt but they need to make accessing radio on these internet radios a lot easier. Perhaps simple stuff like having the radio pre programmed for Irish stations etc but she struggles to find stations through menus. Even though the Roberts can be accessed via the Udock app on her phone it's just not that easy for her generation.

Not to mention the Roberts loosing all the channels twice already it's a joke, I had to re-register twice with different services to be allowed to store the stations and on my own roberts radio, it was a very frustrating.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

RTE should have stayed on Medium Wave 567kHz only, just that alone and stop their nonsense. Tullamore transmission site was not old by any means, they wouldn't be one word today if they kept it alive and treasure it.

I saw the mast on Sunday from the Lullymore pet farm on the board walk around the Bog , at least I think that was it ? has to be sure it was Tullamore direction but I took pics as best I could because next time I'm there it will probably be gone.

The reasoning that they shut down 567 according to RTE was that 252 provided better coverage in the UK vs 567 Khz and they believed that FM coverage was sufficient to shut it down.

When I was in Wales and up to Birmingham and the Drayton manor Theme park 252 was belting in and it was really impressive to be able to get it in the car 100% with absolutely no issue and it was stronger than a lot of their own MW stations. The Outlander has a really fantastic LW/MW radio.

DavidJC

252khz went off yesterday. Was on in the morning (I think), gone by the evening.

I checked late last night and could hear Chaine 3 Algeria here in Ireland but it seemed to completely disappear around 12:30am?
I checked on a KiwiSWR tuner in Sardinia (where the signal is normally very strong) and there it was also completely off.
Does anyone know what time it goes from 1.5mw to 750kw?

Checking 252 a few weeks ago on several WebSWR tuners around Europe there is heavy interference to RTE from Algeria in the evening (even in the UK).
The signal also was surprisingly weak in France - I do remember listening to a decent signal from Atlantic 252 in our family car as we drove to the south west of France as kids. It usually would degrade about half way down the coast of France.

dxhound2005

I can null RTE almost completely and hear Algeria clearly in the evenings. 50 miles away from the transmitter. I have a Wellbrook loop on a rotator. It would depend on what antenna those SDR's are using.

doughnut2000

It doesn't seem like there's any market for LW radio.

FRIENDO

Would be great if they brought back Atlantic 252, loved it

FRIENDO

FRIENDO wrote: »

Would be great if they brought back Atlantic 252, loved it

It was great so many People listened to it. They played decent music but have to say if they were to play the modern crap that I hear on the radio today I wouldn't have any interest. The music back then was far better. Today it's all music created on Ipads, no thought or effort put into it and they're called "Artists" me arse!

Mickey Mike

FRIENDO wrote: »

Would be great if they brought back Atlantic 252, loved it

The actual thought of it sounds exciting, if it were to happen it will be Atlantic internet radio and not on any terrestrial platform, too expensive. The last FM radio launch in my neck of the woods was 4fm in 2009.

Mickey Mike

The Irish Diaspora in the UK need to start using alternative methods if they want to keep listening to Radio1, I sometimes view the The Irish Post and read the comments on LW252, the biggest problem they have is reception quality for the most part. Unless RTE raise its full power to 300kw well they are only wasting their time, why bother. This is a chance to set things right. But I don't think they are serious enough.

Ger Roe

Mickey Mike wrote: »

The Irish Diaspora in the UK need to start using alternative methods if they want to keep listening to Radio1, I sometimes view the The Irish Post and read the comments on LW252, the biggest problem they have is reception quality for the most part. Unless RTE raise its full power to 300kw well they are only wasting their time, why bother. This is a chance to set things right. But I don't think they are serious enough.

RTE are serious enough .... but they are prevented from carrying out their intentions by political lobbying. Even in London, there are far easier ways to listen to RTE Radio, without having to face an internal ferrite rod towards Clarkstown and then try to pick out some modulated audio from the now extremely high ambient level of electrical and RF generated noise all over the band.

Even here in Wicklow, and me with a long standing affinity for AM broadcasting, I wouldn't bother. The last time I tried to hear an AM signal in my house, I gave up trying to battle with the buzzzzz and hummmm all over the MW and LW bands.

While the anorak in me would be sad to see it go...... it is long past it's 'use by' date as an effective form of communication, particularly when there are far better and much easier methods available.

Even if RTE had to take out mobile phone, broadband or satellite tv subscriptions for the handful of people who have absolutely no option other than LW... they would be saving money (licence fee payers money).

Gerry Wicklow

I see Lidl currently selling DAB radio alarm clocks

rathfarnhamlad

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I see Lidl currently selling DAB radio alarm clocks

Cue many people asking for refunds because they can't get UK radio stations on them...

doughnut2000

Ger Roe wrote: »

RTE are serious enough .... but they are prevented from carrying out their intentions by political lobbying. Even in London, there are far easier ways to listen to RTE Radio, without having to face an internal ferrite rod towards Clarkstown and then try to pick out some modulated audio from the now extremely high ambient level of electrical and RF generated noise all over the band.

Even here in Wicklow, and me with a long standing affinity for AM broadcasting, I wouldn't bother. The last time I tried to hear an AM signal in my house, I gave up trying to battle with the buzzzzz and hummmm all over the MW and LW bands.

While the anorak in me would be sad to see it go...... it is long past it's 'use by' date as an effective form of communication, particularly when there are far better and much easier methods available.

Even if RTE had to take out mobile phone, broadband or satellite tv subscriptions for the handful of people who have absolutely no option other than LW... they would be saving money (licence fee payers money).

Agree on all points.

The Buzz and hum is because of the junk electrical gizmos in your house.

LW 252 sounded perfectly fine in the car for me all over Wales and into Birmingham. It was a really good signal. I brought my little portable radio and had no issues receiving the signal in any place we stayed. which is as simple as receiving any station can get even compared to using an app. Just sat it on the table turned it on and radio, simple as it should be.

As for medium wave, most of the high power European stations are gone, it's not because of the technology it's because the stations are simply not there.

Moving further into England might be an issue alright because of Algeria on 252 also 1.5 MW of interference and 750 Kw at night is very hard to eliminate.

I heard 252 are down to 100 Kw during the day could be less and at night it's half that so no, they're not serious at all.

252 Khz used to be a 500 Kw transmitter 2x 250 kw and when they went to solid state it went to 350 Kw I think, huge difference compared to today.

The broadcasting companies don't want us to have AM and the radio manufacturers don't want AM either because almost everyone still has an am radio in some shape or form still today and that doesn't sell radios, sucking people into new technology sells more radios. They use digital to sell radios.

Mickey Mike

What the hell are RTE doing? their so-called essential maintenance, couldn't they just leave it run away as it is, I'm sure the insulators or whatever will do the job until closure.
I did a delivery run in my bosses van, again in the Kerry area just last week and turned on LW 252, to my surprise the signal was absolutely perfect, I was quite amazed.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

What the hell are RTE doing? their so-called essential maintenance, couldn't they just leave it run away as it is, I'm sure the insulators or whatever will do the job until closure.
I did a delivery run in my bosses van, again in the Kerry area just last week and turned on LW 252, to my surprise the signal was absolutely perfect, I was quite amazed.

I'm no transmitter expert but I do know that the mast itself is the antenna and if this was to come in contact with ground it could dramatically change the impedance of the antenna which could seriously damage the output stage of the transmitter, what protection systems are in place I have no idea. But there is a huge amount of energy going between the transmitter and the antenna.

It would be interesting to see if any work is taking place, anyone with a drone willing to find out ? I'm not joking !

Mickey Mike

It would be very interesting indeed to see if anything goes on in Clarkstown, hope someone can find out.

doughnut2000

This thread is interesting for the various attacks on RTÉ regarding a technology that is in decline the world over. Couple that with nostalgia for a radio station that has long ago ceased to exist.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

The other issue is the “electronic gismos” are likely providing a huge % of communication services to many homes, with far more utility and value than this old technology that in all likelihood has very few listeners.

Atlantic 252 was a service that never should have had a market. It was a distorted and totally over regulated U.K. market that kept those stations alive. They were anomalies really, much like the way Europe 1, France’s main commercial talk station started life broadcasting in AM from Germany to get around licensing. Or the Radio Luxembourg era which grew modern RTL and Monte Carlo era etc

Broadcasting music radio on LW, and it being a commercial success, was rather remarkable in the late 20th C

RTE Radio 1 is available fairly easily on sat and online. They could put more effort into securing DAB coverage in the U.K. if they really care that much about the diaspora.

Perhaps something that should be funded by the government as an Irish World Service, rather than expecting it to be domestic licence fee funded, if that’s the intention.

Mickey Mike

For me, I do care either way, I listen to to a good few radio stations on Apps, that's the way its gone and so be it. There are no channels been launched on FM even, at least very few anyway. Internet and apps is the future I'm thinking.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

For me, I do care either way, I listen to to a good few radio stations on Apps, that's the way its gone and so be it. There are no channels been launched on FM even, at least very few anyway. Internet and apps is the future I'm thinking.

Licensing restrictions are hampering FM broadcasting as the State controls too much via the BAI, stations are not allowed to flourish without state interference and censorship.

I also listen to some stations via apps but there's no denying that the box that receives am/fm or SW is the simplest way to receive radio without having to use my limited data or be forever attached to a computer be it mobile or not. Sometimes I just want to get away from computers and poxy phones.

FuzzyThinking

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

The other issue is the “electronic gismos” are likely providing a huge % of communication services to many homes, with far more utility and value than this old technology that in all likelihood has very few listeners.

Atlantic 252 was a service that never should have had a market. It was a distorted and totally over regulated U.K. market that kept those stations alive. They were anomalies really, much like the way Europe 1, France’s main commercial talk station started life broadcasting in AM from Germany to get around licensing. Or the Radio Luxembourg era which grew modern RTL and Monte Carlo era etc

Broadcasting music radio on LW, and it being a commercial success, was rather remarkable in the late 20th C

RTE Radio 1 is available fairly easily on sat and online. They could put more effort into securing DAB coverage in the U.K. if they really care that much about the diaspora.

Perhaps something that should be funded by the government as an Irish World Service, rather than expecting it to be domestic licence fee funded, if that’s the intention.

I meant electronic Junk being the power supplies that supply most of these electronic devices are illegal and do not comply with regulations.

A solar PV company in Germany has been forced to remove and/or alter one or all of their Solar PV inverters due to causing massive levels of noise which is illegal and greatly effects the radio spectrum which is protected by international law because it's not just radio stations and Amateur radio People that use radio but also emergency services and airports, planes, Military etc. So the reason a lot of People can't hear MW radio for example can in a lot of cases be due to these extremely poor quality devices.

RTE are no more interested in providing a service to anyone in the U.K be they Irish or not than they are at providing a decent service for People on this Island.

The real issue for radio today is the quality of programming and the ever increasing amounts of ipad created "music" and lame dj's trying to be funny and of course streaming services which has made traditional broadcasters much less relevant and RTE can't adapt, it's very hard, in my opinion, for RTE to compete with youtube for instance, youtube has changed the way we watch content in ways unimaginable 20 years ago, I watch much more youtube and Netfix than I do RTE why ? because the content on RTE is poor and because I can find pretty much anything I want related to my radio hobby or cars and that interests me a lot more than the content on RTE.

It doesn't matter the means of transmission, if the content is good people will tune in, watch and listen, if the content isn't there then the best platform in the world is useless.

SPDUB

doughnut2000 wrote: »

This thread is interesting for the various attacks on RTÉ regarding a technology that is in decline the world over.

Maybe because they don't appear to be truthful

Somehow they can put off essential maintenance for a year , even though they were doing work on other transmitters

So if the transmitter is being closed next year why not postpone again until after it's closure date and figuratively speaking run it into the ground .

That also has the bonus for RTE of making sure it can't be on the air anymore

SPDUB

SPDUB wrote: »

Maybe because they don't appear to be truthful

Somehow they can put off essential maintenance for a year , even though they were doing work on other transmitters

So if the transmitter is being closed next year why not postpone again until after it's closure date and figuratively speaking run it into the
ground .

That also has the bonus for RTE of making sure it can't be on the air anymore

When RTE said they put off the maintenance because of covid, they meant that they didn't want to deprive listeners of it last year during peak covid. Btw RTE no longer plan to close LW, the current work will ensure that it can continue until the end of the decade.

marclt

Johns nephew wrote: »

When RTE said they put off the maintenance because of covid, they meant that they didn't want to deprive listeners of it last year during peak covid. Btw RTE no longer plan to close LW, the current work will ensure that it can continue until the end of the decade.

If that is the case, they need to use their full power allocation…

Mickey Mike

marclt wrote: »

If that is the case, they need to use their full power allocation…

Yes, you got that right and should be made do it, we might get over if they don't change frequency to a clear channel, but full power is a must or the whole thing is pointless.