The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

RTE have a DRM compatible 300kW transmitter at Summerhill since July 2007
Is it even possible to buy a DRM radio? that seems to be the problem in Europe, so that was a waste of time from the get go.

You can buy a DRM radio online or use an SDR and external software or check out the many online Kiwi SDRs that can decode DRM.

Sound quality is woeful on the majority of transmissions that use older AAC codec at around 10-16 Kbps, it really is terrible and analogue is vastly better.

Listening to radio Kuwait in stereo however is pretty amazing on Short Wave.

Also listening to RCI from China with just 30 Kw can be a pretty stable signal and is amazing how good it can be with just 30 Kw.

DMR is a missed opportunity for Europe as many DAB transmissions proved to offer much inferior geographical coverage.

The newer xHE-AAC codec is supposed to offer much better sound quality but I have not heard a station broadcast using this yet, Radio Marti is testing this out every day but can't here it here due to interference from stronger stations.

The E.U makes some foolish decisons, Diesel being a big one, so too is the Elimination of AM radio.

In India, new cars come with DMR. There's no reason this can't be done in Europe too. No reason RTE can't have some programming in DMR no reason they can't import DMR radios. I suppose they feel if an app can do it then it's good enough, lets tear down the transmitters.

Mickey Mike

Tear down AM transmitters, yes for sure, now that DAB is got rid of and they don't want to hear of it again, the same applies to DRM, its a no no. I don't think they are keen on keeping FM going into the distance future either, if RTE had a choice they'd stop that too. We'll be listening to radio via the saorview platform and online.
Once when countries start closing FM, you can be sure RTE will get on the switch off bandwagon.

I don't think we should rely on the internet for everything we do, imagine the consequences if some internet blackout occurred ?

FM is going nowhere in Ireland for a long time.

rathfarnhamlad

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think we should rely on the internet for everything we do, imagine the consequences if some internet blackout occurred ?

This happened in the US fairly recently when a construction worker dragged a JCB bucket through a fibre optic cable.

Deleted User wrote: »

FM is going nowhere in Ireland for a long time.

Totally agree, nor should it.

L1011

Mickey Mike wrote: »

RTE have a DRM compatible 300kW transmitter at Summerhill since July 2007
Is it even possible to buy a DRM radio? that seems to be the problem in Europe, so that was a waste of time from the get go.

You could buy them when RTE did a trial. I did.

But virtually nobody else did. The product was dead on arrival.

You can be sure very few were aware of the DRM trials or even that the radios existed. Probably no add campaign either to make People aware of it. I certainly don't remember any mention of DRM at the time.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

The E.U makes some foolish decisons, Diesel being a big one, so too is the Elimination of AM radio.

Also straight bananas.

TAFKAlawhec

Digital Radio Mondiale is essentially a dead duck in the developed world. Within Europe the near future of audio broadcasting is essentially lying in FM, DAB+ and online distribution (depending on country/broadcaster). Elsewhere DRM30, with the exception of India, have been limited to the shortwave bands, more as an experiment than any serious broadcast - China Radio International being the most prominent.

The big problem with DRM30 is that at modes using a TX bandwidth of 10kHz or less, the resultant bitrate is not great. If you think some of the DAB stations broadcast in the UK don't sound good, the DRM30 broadcasts will present something else entirely. WRT India, the chances I've had to monitor the MW DRM transmissions from All India Radio have them provide a "multiplex" of two audio services whose bitrate are <10 kbps each, and yes they sound poor - certainly not a good example of the technology. Using "double" channel bandwidths of 18 or 20kHz can potentially deliver a much better bitrate for a service or services, but I don't recall anyone doing such broadcast tests ever since DRM30 started nearly two decades ago.

With respect to it, DRM appears to me to be more of a solution looking for a problem to at least the same extent if not more so than DAB ever was.

Compared to analogue DRM sounds woeful and there's really no advantage. However, the newer xHE-AAC is supposed to be a lot better but I haven't heard any DRM transmissions using xHE-AAC yet.

I could see the attraction to digital Shortwave if the sound quality was a lot better, a lot of the digital age folk might appreciate it more than the sound on AM analogue.

Hotblack Desiato

Deleted User wrote: »

The E.U makes some foolish decisons, Diesel being a big one, so too is the Elimination of AM radio.

The shortsighted incentivisation of diseasel cars here was nothing to do with the EU - thank the Green Party for that one.

AM radio isn't either but I suppose if you have something set up as the bogeyman you'll blame it for everything.

Hotblack Desiato

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The shortsighted incentivisation of diseasel cars here was nothing to do with the EU - thank the Green Party for that one.

AM radio isn't either but I suppose if you have something set up as the bogeyman you'll blame it for everything.

OK........ WTF ? lol.

Mickey Mike

Let's hope RTE will focus on a good strong FM reception throughout the island of Ireland, it will be the only analogue system left in the country.

Mickey Mike

Mickey Mike wrote: »

Let's hope RTE will focus on a good strong FM reception throughout the island of Ireland, it will be the only analogue system left in the country.

They don't have a choice, no one wanted their outdated Digital service at 56 Kbps MP2 lol. Digital ages a lot faster lol.

But no, that wasn't the real reason, People are happy enough with analogue FM for a reason, it works, there's not nearly the same benefit to digital radio as there is digital TV and none of the commercial stations were interested because why ? why would they spend money, just to change to digital because the word digital is the cool thing today ?

So there's still plenty of Analogue FM, just unfortunately most of the stations are rubbish and oppressed by the regulations of the BAI and can't fully thrive without state interference.

rathfarnhamlad

Mickey Mike wrote: »

RTE have a DRM compatible 300kW transmitter at Summerhill since July 2007
Is it even possible to buy a DRM radio? that seems to be the problem in Europe, so that was a waste of time from the get go.

I have seen a few newly manufactured DRM receivers which looked to be rather badly put together on various sites which were selling for prices on a level with top-spec B&O hi-fi gear. Good luck with that!

Not that long ago I came across a Morphy Richards (I think) used DRM receiver which was listed on eB*y over & over with no sale.

TAFKAlawhec

Deleted User wrote: »

They don't have a choice, no one wanted their outdated Digital service at 56 Kbps MP2 lol. Digital ages a lot faster lol.

The lowest bitrate of any RTE service when they were broadcasting DAB using MP2 was 80 kbps mono & 128 kbps joint stereo, with Lyric FM getting 160 kbps JS. Also IIRC the two HE-AAC services were 64 kbps.

TAFKAlawhec

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

The lowest bitrate of any RTE service when they were broadcasting DAB using MP2 was 80 kbps mono & 128 kbps joint stereo, with Lyric FM getting 160 kbps JS. Also IIRC the two HE-AAC services were 64 kbps.

Lyric according to my radio was 128 Kbs mp2 and the rest were around 56 Kbps Mp2 according again to the radio and this matched up what I looked up too.

Having said that it was ok for the likes of Radio 1 for speech but it was far from the "digital Quality" RTE tried to make it out and why we should abandon that horrible FM quality lol.

They abandoned Mount Leinster transmissions a long time ago. Even so, no one really cared because they could get whatever they wanted on FM.

Gerry Wicklow

Deleted User wrote: »

....Even so, no one really cared because they could get whatever they wanted on FM.

To my mind that sums up DAB for the Irish market. No one was interested. Existing stations are happy with what they have. Smaller or newer niche stations could never afford it, especially when compared to streaming. The audience is equally happy(ish) with FM. Why would they waste money on an expensive receiver with no obvious advantages.
Similarly I would love to know how many people know about or use Saorview for radio.
Apart from the few specialised people here (us anoraks) I doubt many of the general public know or care about either Saorview radio or DAB radio.

Sam Russell

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

To my mind that sums up DAB for the Irish market. No one was interested. Existing stations are happy with what they have. Smaller or newer niche stations could never afford it, especially when compared to streaming. The audience is equally happy(ish) with FM. Why would they waste money on an expensive receiver with no obvious advantages.
Similarly I would love to know how many people know about or use Saorview for radio.
Apart from the few specialised people here (us anoraks) I doubt many of the general public know or care about either Saorview radio or DAB radio.

Are there any Saorview radio receivers?

(That is radios that can decode the Saorview signal for audio only.)

Johnboy1951

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any Saorview radio receivers?

(That is radios that can decode the Saorview signal for audio only.)

Never seen or even read of one. Would love to though if anyone has a link.

I think technology might have passed that by in any case, for the home.
It is easy to implement DVB-T and DVB-S radio reception throughout the home via wifi, once a suitable STB is installed.
I began using an old (Lidl?) SD DVB-S receiver for the purpose, years ago, but it is now available throughout my home (both DVB-T and DVB-S), easily from a Linux box.

Gerry Wicklow

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

To my mind that sums up DAB for the Irish market. No one was interested. Existing stations are happy with what they have. Smaller or newer niche stations could never afford it, especially when compared to streaming. The audience is equally happy(ish) with FM. Why would they waste money on an expensive receiver with no obvious advantages.
Similarly I would love to know how many people know about or use Saorview for radio.
Apart from the few specialised people here (us anoraks) I doubt many of the general public know or care about either Saorview radio or DAB radio.

The best network isn't worth anything if the content is poor and the last few years RTE content quality is deplorable and even their Children's TV is a joke.

RTE today are, in the minds of many, irrelevant and not worth paying a license for but I'm sure Dee Forbes will get her way and the Government will forcibly extract the license fee and add it to the property tax.

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Lyric according to my radio was 128 Kbs mp2 and the rest were around 56 Kbps Mp2 according again to the radio and this matched up what I looked up too.

Having said that it was ok for the likes of Radio 1 for speech but it was far from the "digital Quality" RTE tried to make it out and why we should abandon that horrible FM quality lol.

They abandoned Mount Leinster transmissions a long time ago. Even so, no one really cared because they could get whatever they wanted on FM.

Neither my memory nor Wornort has ever seen those bitrates. Nor was it ever on Mount Leinster.

I think you misremember.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

The best network isn't worth anything if the content is poor and the last few years RTE content quality is deplorable and even their Children's TV is a joke.

RTE today are, in the minds of many, irrelevant and not worth paying a license for but I'm sure Dee Forbes will get her way and the Government will forcibly extract the license fee and add it to the property tax.

I do not relish the idea that our national TV is reduced to Virgin Media. However bad RT are, VM are terrible and have as near zero local content.

Some of RTE content is brilliant, and much is appalling - but there is further choice if only by way of Satellite and streaming. RTE cannot hope to achieve the level of content achieved by BBC , ITV, and Ch4.

Just look at US TV (available in the US) and the content it achieves (as in bad).

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not relish the idea that our national TV is reduced to Virgin Media. However bad RT are, VM are terrible and have as near zero local content.

Some of RTE content is brilliant, and much is appalling - but there is further choice if only by way of Satellite and streaming. RTE cannot hope to achieve the level of content achieved by BBC , ITV, and Ch4.

Just look at US TV (available in the US) and the content it achieves (as in bad).

RTE content used to be a lot better and so used their presenters, but this is going back a pretty long time now so no one cares any more they have been so bad for so long, they failed to stay relevant.

I get that some of their content is appealing to some but I honestly can't remember the last time I watched anything on RTE TV.

And I agree, Virgin is complete and utter junk, I don't watch this either.

dxhound2005

Deleted User wrote: »

RTE content used to be a lot better and so used their presenters, but this is going back a pretty long time now so no one cares any more they have been so bad for so long, they failed to stay relevant.

I get that some of their content is appealing to some but I honestly can't remember the last time I watched anything on RTE TV.

And I agree, Virgin is complete and utter junk, I don't watch this either.

You're judging content that you never heard or saw.

kazoo106

Absolute tripe being spun here regarding DAB and to a lesser extent AM

DAB is a perfectly good medium for radio broadcast, it works and sounds good (128k and above for DAB or 64k and above for DAB+)

AM has its place too - especially for coverage and very suited to speech radio

Both should be retained

dulpit

kazoo106 wrote: »

Absolute tripe being spun here regarding DAB and to a lesser extent AM

DAB is a perfectly good medium for radio broadcast, it works and sounds good (128k and above for DAB or 64k and above for DAB+)

AM has its place too - especially for coverage and very suited to speech radio

Both should be retained

What do they offer that would be worthwhile for Ireland?

Sam Russell

kazoo106 wrote: »

Absolute tripe being spun here regarding DAB and to a lesser extent AM

DAB is a perfectly good medium for radio broadcast, it works and sounds good (128k and above for DAB or 64k and above for DAB+)

AM has its place too - especially for coverage and very suited to speech radio

Both should be retained

DAB or DAB+ has no benefits for Ireland as it provides no extra reach over the existing FM network, no better quality. Receivers are much higher cost then FM receivers, and are clumsy to use, requiring better aerials, and are not suitable for battery powered receivers.

kazoo106

Virtually all my radio listening is nowadays by DAB from across the border, there are no issues with quality on the vast majority of broadcasts, in fact Downtown radio was most enjoyable over last weekend.
Anyway we are veering a little off topic. There remains a requirement for RTE on AM (as there was for Radio Ulster) on this island. There still are huge areas with no decent FM coverage.

dxhound2005

dxhound2005 wrote: »

You're judging content that you never heard or saw.

I see enough RTE TV when in My Mothers and in other People's homes.

I do actually listen to Radio 1 in the car to and from work a lot but that doesn't mean I like it but I would say that it's better than some other stations, of course a lot of the commercial stations are complete rubbish but R1 quality of programming has really slipped.

TAFKAlawhec

kazoo106 wrote: »

Absolute tripe being spun here regarding DAB and to a lesser extent AM

DAB is a perfectly good medium for radio broadcast, it works and sounds good (128k and above for DAB or 64k and above for DAB+)

AM has its place too - especially for coverage and very suited to speech radio

Both should be retained

The difference is that people in NI (and Britain) are listening to DAB/DAB+ broadcasts. Next to no one is opting to listen to a MW signal of the same station if they can help listening to it from another medium e.g. FM, DAB, online, satellite etc. with the only exception being opt-out programming. When the cost per listener for such stations make it uneconomical for the broadcaster to continue to transmit via a medium, they'll cut their cloth accordingly - not even PSBs are immune to this, and this doesn't just apply to MW & LW stations. Look at the Sky/Freesat (or FTA @ 28.2 East) channels that have in recent months/years decided to go online only and stop "linear", including motorsport.tv, Horse & Country and most recently BET UK. In more familiar turf, most student radio stations are now online only, having given up their low-power MW & FM transmissions (I think University of York Radio is the only one left among higher education level stations), for example Queens Radio from QUB in Belfast went off air from 1134 kHz nearly a decade ago.

Sam Russell wrote: »

DAB or DAB+ has no benefits for Ireland as it provides no extra reach over the existing FM network, no better quality. Receivers are much higher cost then FM receivers, and are clumsy to use, requiring better aerials, and are not suitable for battery powered receivers.

Much of this is now old hat - I bought a new DAB+/FM radio off Amazon before last Christmas for £20. Sure you can buy a pretty crappy FM radio for less than half that price, but new receivers are not that expensive. "Clumsy to use" is subjective (many have presets, otherwise you simply scroll through a list of tuned stations. I've no problem with indoor reception of the three ensembles I can receive at my home here off Brougher Mtn & Strabane, while battery life on receivers currently on sale are much better than their predecesors - the last two DAB+ receivers I bought both run off their own built-in lithium batteries. Not quite the same as analogue radio yet for the time being, but efficency is improving all the time.

As for the conditions that led to the eventual demise of RTÉ's DAB transmissions, ultimately IMO it was never given a proper chance through a combination of RTÉ's half hearted enthuasim, alongside the BAI and the commercial sector having no impetus to see it happen in the country - a case of current stations not wishing to see new competition in the marketplace and the regulator making little change to the audio broadcasting ecosystem over the past 30+ years - the BAI has long struck me as a rather conservative, risk adverse regulator for broadcast radio compared to many of their European counterparts. Political matters in how stations are licenced, content requirements etc. are also a factor. Now maybe the system of commercial radio licencing is actually one that is overall the more beneficial to the country than a more deregulated regime like the UK (though that's a somewhat unfair one given the big difference in size of potential audiences), but there is a train of thought of what it could be...