Transformers Age of Extinction

Galvasean

PaulB1984 wrote: »

Isn't that what the cartoon did? Aim torward a kid's fantasy?

Yes, but even the cartoon was able to create a few thought provoking and interesting stories with some exciting action to boot. Of course looking back at the original (G1) cartoon there's only a handful of genuinely good episodes (and an awful lot of crap).
I mean, if a kids' cartoon from the 80s can give a main character a bit of internal consistency over a story ark why can't a blockbuster? In DoTM we see Optimus, Mr. "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" callously destroying his home planet and everybody on it without a moment's hesitation. Even the old cartoon (The Ultimate Doom) where that plotline was lifted from handled the idea in a much more mature (but by no means less exciting). In said cartoon Prime had a frickin' moral dilemma at that point. In DotM it was more a case of, "Sod it, blow up the planet. Innocents be damned."
Just because something is an action blockbuster doesn't mean it has to try to be as brain dead as possible. It's not that hard to throw a bit of character in there. Ultimately, kick ass action scenes carry a lot more weight when there's someone you want to see pull through involved. That's why Aliens is considered an action classic and Revenge of the Fallen is not.

PaulB1984

Galvasean wrote: »

Yes, but even the cartoon was able to create a few thought provoking and interesting stories with some exciting action to boot. Of course looking back at the original (G1) cartoon there's only a handful of genuinely good episodes (and an awful lot of crap).
I mean, if a kids' cartoon from the 80s can give a main character a bit of internal consistency over a story ark why can't a blockbuster? In DoTM we see Optimus, Mr. "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" callously destroying his home planet and everybody on it without a moment's hesitation. Even the old cartoon (The Ultimate Doom) where that plotline was lifted from handled the idea in a much more mature (but by no means less exciting). In said cartoon Prime had a frickin' moral dilemma at that point. In DotM it was more a case of, "Sod it, blow up the planet. Innocents be damned."
Just because something is an action blockbuster doesn't mean it has to try to be as brain dead as possible. It's not that hard to throw a bit of character in there. Ultimately, kick ass action scenes carry a lot more weight when there's someone you want to see pull through involved. That's why Aliens is considered an action classic and Revenge of the Fallen is not.

In fairness, Aliens is a wonderful action movie, a classic deserving of the word, but let's be honest, the plot in that truly is brain dead, a bunch of annoying idiot "We is Americans Paw and we will over these here Olions" soldiers sent to a planet to kill aliens. The theatrical version made even less sense, with Ripley having the mothering touch, although Cameron fixed it slightly with the extended version. At least ROTF has the balls to attempt a smart story. But getting back to DOTM, Optimus sacrificed one already dead planet to save Earth, why wouldn't he? Wasn't Cybertron void of good life? The Decepticons had planned to populate it with their own kind and keep humans as slaves, didn't they? Or am i wrong?

Doctor DooM

PaulB1984 wrote: »

Isn't that what the cartoon did? Aim torward a kid's fantasy? I need to mention something here, i'm a huge Michael Bay fan, not just a casual liker, an actual fan, his movies bring me more joy than you can imagine, i consider him the master of true action movies, a man who rather than trying to be fancy and original, chooses to be epic and explosive, which is a true action movie to me. Now mixing him with possibly the most beloved children's toys (At least until Buzz Lightyear) would either be a risk, or would pay off. I think the fact that the first 3 movies have made close to 3 billion dollars between them and a fourth one demanded by Paramount shows that it really has paid off. These movies are what people like me want to see, our fantasies come through, all those crazy stories we cooked up with our toys in the sandpit of a schoolyard, brought to life by the most psychotic genius in action cinema. Yes there are people who sneer at them, critics included, but the fact that such people have never stopped any of the entries filling cinema screenings for months on end must show the true power of the franchise.

If we're going to argue that popularity is a sign of quality, we'd all be listening to Bieber.

No, by the way, that's not what the original cartoon did. Hasbro delibrately tried to rise above the average childrens franchise so hired writers from Marvel to give the characters more development than the average kids comic (it was a comic first, btw, not a cartoon, by a couple of months). The reason we're watching a TF film and not a Mask or He-Man film is because the characters are beloved to so many.

This has nothing to do with sneering at schoolyard fantasy. It has everything to do with the fact Bay seems actually incapable of understanding, for example, what a hero is (as someone earlier said).

An example of this; he said he got feedback that Prime was not heroic enough in the first film. His idea to resolve this was to turn him into a face tearing psychopath in ROTF.

It also has quite a bit to do, to me, with an outright poor cinema experience. The second and third TF films are blurs of unfunny jokes, dropped plot threads, American military pron, and sometimes even outright racism.

Doctor DooM

PaulB1984 wrote: »

I wondered that too, why Optimus waited, but then realised he had to, the element of surprise is needed, had they revealed themselves to be alive, they'd have been destroyed in the attacks. Always best to let the oven cool down before sticking your arms in. I kinda agree on the teleportation thing, but again, no other way in movie writing terms to destroy it without forsaking the level of action needed for the finale. And the Shockwave scene, yes it ends a little quickly, but for as long as he's there, WOW!

This is missing the point a bit.

Optimus Prime would rather die defending 1 human being than live having turned his back on the defenseless. This is established in the one scene in ROTF that transformers fans tend to like (the forest scene). No other way they could have handled the invasion? Sure, they could just have the base they were in turn into Metroplex, turns out the Autobots have been working on a massive secret weapon on earth, new toy to sell, everyone's happy. There's always a way to write yourself out of these things, especially in sci fi.

The character acted incredibly inconsistently between ROTF and DOTM, internally, not including the other baggage Optimus already carried.

Galvasean

Revenge of he Fallen? Smart story? Optimus dies so Shia Lebouff goes to robot heaven where the robot Gods ressurect him so that he can resurrect Optimus. Gotha.
Say what you will about RotF, but smart is one thing it aint!

Doctor DooM

Galvasean wrote: »

Revenge of he Fallen? Smart story? Optimus dies so Shia Lebouff goes to robot heaven where the robot Gods ressurect him so that he can resurrect Optimus. Gotha.
Say what you will about RotF, but smart is one thing it aint!

Actually, it's Optimus dies so Shia Lebouf uses the macguffin which can resurrect 1 transformer to resurrect a Decepticon instead to tell him how to resurrect Optimus but dies so goes to robot heaven where the robot Gods ressurect him so that he can resurrect Optimus.

No wonder Orci and Kurtzman couldn't disassociate themselves from it quick enough!

PaulB1984

Doctor DooM wrote: »

This is missing the point a bit.

Optimus Prime would rather die defending 1 human being than live having turned his back on the defenseless. This is established in the one scene in ROTF that transformers fans tend to like (the forest scene). No other way they could have handled the invasion? Sure, they could just have the base they were in turn into Metroplex, turns out the Autobots have been working on a massive secret weapon on earth, new toy to sell, everyone's happy. There's always a way to write yourself out of these things, especially in sci fi.

The character acted incredibly inconsistently between ROTF and DOTM, internally, not including the other baggage Optimus already carried.

To me, i consider Optimus Prime to be the Jack Bauer of Transformers, he'll do what he can to save 1 life, but if many more than who he's willing to save are at risk, he sees the big picture. Pretty much like John McClane in Die Hard 1, hand himself over in an attempt to save 1 life and be killed himself, or hide and know that there's many more lives at stake? The way the ending is written is the way movie fans want it to be, the world almost at an end and the heroes we thought were dead come back and save the day. It's classic blockbuster tactics.

Galvasean

Oh yeah, I forgot about Jetfire. I'm glad he resurrected that guy. He was a fun character even if his subplot added an unessecary 40 minutes to the film...

PaulB1984

Galvasean wrote: »

Revenge of he Fallen? Smart story? Optimus dies so Shia Lebouff goes to robot heaven where the robot Gods ressurect him so that he can resurrect Optimus. Gotha.
Say what you will about RotF, but smart is one thing it aint!

It's robot aliens from outerspace who turn into trucks and cars. It's not The Godfather. I think they're allowed to add a little afterlife into it if they think it'll work. Which it did work, for me at least. You can always judge the smartness of a movie's story by attempting to describe in less than 4 sentences to someone. I can't describe ROTF or DOTM with less than 20 sentences.

Sofiztikated

PaulB1984 wrote: »

It's robot aliens from outerspace who turn into trucks and cars. It's not The Godfather. I think they're allowed to add a little afterlife into it if they think it'll work. Which it did work, for me at least. You can always judge the smartness of a movie's story by attempting to describe in less than 4 sentences to someone. I can't describe ROTF or DOTM with less than 20 sentences.

I can.

Michael Bay makes things go boom. And then the explosions have explosions.

PaulB1984

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I can.

Michael Bay makes things go boom. And then the explosions have explosions.

So trying to save Earth from being engulfed by another planet is not a story? Fair enough.

johnny_ultimate

PaulB1984 wrote: »

You can always judge the smartness of a movie's story by attempting to describe in less than 4 sentences to someone.

No, you can judge a film's 'smartness' by whether it's intelligently written and made or not. Transformers 1-3 are not intelligently made in any way, shape or form. In fact, they actively insult the viewer's intelligent, as well as both purposefully and accidentally offending anyone who isn't a white Republican.

As I've said before, you just need to watch the Evangelion films for proof of how smart and thematically complex a giant robot story can be. I also have little doubt that Guillmero Del Toro is going to show Transformers up for the inane, offensive crap that they are with Pacific Rim.

Sofiztikated

TBH, I watched the 3 films so far as I believe they were intended. Sheer brainless eyegasms. I can't tell you what the plot in the last film was, I honestly can't remember. There was something to do with metal sticks, and some stuff blew up.

Doctor DooM

PaulB1984 wrote: »

To me, i consider Optimus Prime to be the Jack Bauer of Transformers, he'll do what he can to save 1 life, but if many more than who he's willing to save are at risk, he sees the big picture. Pretty much like John McClane in Die Hard 1, hand himself over in an attempt to save 1 life and be killed himself, or hide and know that there's many more lives at stake? The way the ending is written is the way movie fans want it to be, the world almost at an end and the heroes we thought were dead come back and save the day. It's classic blockbuster tactics.

Oh god...

Look, don't compare movie fans with Bay fans, I am sure some will find that a little insulting.

The end of DOTM completely destroyed Primes character. Beyond a fragment of a doubt. I am the one giving examples of my points why here: All you've done is compare Optimus to a torturer and drug addict, which I am pretty sure he's not. He's actually closer to the "battle monk" trope. Bay shows an epic lack of understanding for someone who claims to have gone to "transformers university".

Let me put it another way: If Bay really wanted to show any form of character to Optimus, he could at least given us 30 second of him agonising over his actions. Really though, he simply would never ever have behaved, as a character, as he did in this film.

PaulB1984 wrote: »

It's robot aliens from outerspace who turn into trucks and cars. It's not The Godfather. I think they're allowed to add a little afterlife into it if they think it'll work. Which it did work, for me at least. You can always judge the smartness of a movie's story by attempting to describe in less than 4 sentences to someone. I can't describe ROTF or DOTM with less than 20 sentences.

Thanks for completely missing the point again.

Lets make it a little simpler.

Optimus Prime dies. Oh, noes!

Shia: Hey, I would like Optimus to be alive again. I wonder how I could achieve that. Hey, I have this thing which will bring a transformer back to life! The 'cons just used it on Megatron! I wonder if it'd work on Prime... nah, lets use it on this stealth jet with a Decepticon symbol instead.

Jetfire: Hi, I am a robot with facial hair. Thanks for using that macguffin to resurrect me. Hey, there's ANOTHER macguffin which can resurrect Prime! Lets go half way across the world to get it. Good think you didn't use that shard to resurrect Optimus, how else could you have found out where to find something to resurrect Optimus?

We see a giant robots balls. stuff happens. Humans kill Decepticons, negating the entire reason for the Autobots existence.

Sam gets the Macguffin. It doesn't work. Then he gets killed too.

He goes to robot heaven, where the Primes (except for Optimus, for some reason) are chilling.

Othermus Prime: Yo Shia, see your dead. That kinda sucks. Turns out we can just restore people to life, so we're going to restore you, AND make the Macguffin work.

Shia: Wait, couldn't you just have brought Optimus back to life? I mean, that's two opportunities now...

Othermus Prime: Nah, it's all about the journey, innit? Now, we'll risk the fate of the earth by wasting more time before the only being that can stop the fallen by bringing you back instead. FLY you fools, FLY!

OPtimus Prime: I'm back, bitches. GIVE ME ALL THE FACES!!!

... as you can see, there's some pretty huge, GAPING plot holes in ROTF.

kitakyushu

I've always felt that the major failure with these films is that despite being called "Transformers" the Transformers themselves don't really play much of a role in proceedings beyond fighting and blowing stuff up.

I remember I used to watch the cartoon when I was a kid and the characters actually were characters. It was nothing too deep, but at least they were the stars and the ones running the show. In these movie however they just seem like talking equipment called on screen occasionally to do their thing and then shuttled back to the sidelines again for another while.

My jaw dropped during the first film as I saw what Bay had done with them It's always laughable when Bay tries to have an "emotional" moment with one of these robots, primarily because he hasn't really done anything to earn it. It'd be like Christopher Nolan trying to make us sad by crashing the batmobile into a wall.

Anyway, I think it was a real opportunity lost to not do a movie where the robots actually were the stars, rather than just interchangeable props for ott action-set pieces.

Overheal

Shia: Hey, I would like Optimus to be alive again. I wonder how I could achieve that. Hey, I have this thing which will bring a transformer back to life! The 'cons just used it on Megatron! I wonder if it'd work on Prime... nah, lets use it on this stealth jet with a Decepticon symbol instead.

Jetfire: Hi, I am a robot with facial hair. Thanks for using that macguffin to resurrect me. Hey, there's ANOTHER macguffin which can resurrect Prime! Lets go half way across the world to get it. Good think you didn't use that shard to resurrect Optimus, how else could you have found out where to find something to resurrect Optimus?

Jetfire was in stasis lock, he wasn't dead and they didn't know he was a deception until he started waking up again. Presumably in stasis lock because of energon depletion.

As for how the piece of **** worked on megatron... \o/ you got me. Asshole cannibalized another bot though.

10 seconds showing them trying to tap Prime awake with the shard wouldve been useful though.

Doctor DooM

Overheal wrote: »

Jetfire was in stasis lock, he wasn't dead and they didn't know he was a deception until he started waking up again. Presumably in stasis lock because of energon depletion.

As for how the piece of **** worked on megatron... \o/ you got me. Asshole cannibalized another bot though.

10 seconds showing them trying to tap Prime awake with the shard wouldve been useful though.

I don't want to go too TF nerdy, but Megatron was way beyond the spare parts repairing him. His spark was destroyed, which is the TF equivalent of having your soul ripped apart. Basically, exactly what was supposed to have happened when Megs stabbed prime through his chest (Sparks have physical forms, and are usually contained within a shielded part of a TF's body). It was clearly, to me anyway, the all spark fragment which brought him back to life, and the parts which got him moving.

But yeah if Bay had've cared they could have taken care of that quickly.

Overheal

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I don't want to go too TF nerdy,

(thread)

I think we're a little past that point, don't you?

rockbeast

Michael Bay was never going to deliver a great Transformers film. What he has done is deliver 3 extremely profitable "Transformers Movies". Fair enough, for the attached CGI and SFX costs no studio was going to take a risk on making a character driven piece.

Which is a shame. Two stories stand out from being a kid; The Target 2006 issues (introduction of Galvatron, Cyclonus and Scourge) and another of which I have forgotten most of the storyline but remember it was the story for the UK 100th issue (wraparound cover/poster!) and Optimus Prime was on the run on Cybertron. Another TF was fatally wounded and he was cradling him. A meditation on life, death and what it means to be a man, sorry, robot!

Either would be great to see on screen.

Maybe in ten years when comparable SFX can be created on your average mobile phone somebody will approach Transformers as a character driven piece.

Until then we'll have to endure Bay's interpretation of Optimus Prime as Hulk Hogan - I Am A Real Cybertonian!

RB

the purple tin

How many more of these will there be before they start going straight to video?

Galvasean

the purple tin wrote: »

How many more of these will there be before they start going straight to video?

Based on box office draw they'll just keep going and going and going... much like the Pirates of the Caribbean franchise.
For straight to video robot action check out the Transmorphers! :pac:



Powerglide is angry!!!!

Bullseye1

Good to see another Irish actor getting his chance to impress even if it is in a Michael Bay movie.

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=98641

Basq

Not familiar with him, but fair dues!

tok9

The lead in What Richard Did. He couldn't have picked a much bigger change in movie. From low budget to big. Fair play.

Corholio

Fair play to him, however in announcing him as the lead, Michael Bay also revealed Transformers 4 will be the start of a new trilogy.........

DirkVoodoo

Great to see.

Not a Bay fan at all, in fact the only movie of his I can barely tolerate is "The Island" and that's because Scarlett Johansson distracts from all the product placement and overused Bay shots (seriously, some directors have "trademarks", he just lacks anything more than one dimension).

BUT, fair play to him for casting the lad, I like the little note he wrote on his casting.

He could easily have gone for some no talent, but so hot right now actors like Megan Fox and Shia laBeouf, but he has Marky-Mark and this dude.

Now lets get some proper looking transformers!

Marty McFly

Delighted to see an Irish man take the lead and hopefully he has a good career from it, although I dont think it will be Transformer that will make him it will be the roles he gets offered and picked afterwards that will decided that, he wont need much acting chops for Transformers.

Galvasean

The Transformers paycheck could be great for his career, allowing him to fund his own projects. Or he could get lazy and cash in blockbuster cheques ad infinum. Here's hoping it's the former.

Mickeroo

Fair play to the Irish lad.

I'm devastated we'll have at least 3 more Bay directed transformers films before someone else gets a chance to pull the franchide out of the mire though.

pixelburp

Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me
Fool me a third time, I possibly have brain damage.

A fourth time? No, just no. I figured #3 might be tolerable if I went as part of a big group - safety in numbers and all that - but errrrrgh. This time I absolutely mean it - Transformers 4 shall not purloin my wallet again damnit.

Happy for the Irish lad but tbh getting propelled straight into a blockbuster could be a double-edged sword