Right to Die debate: Belgian murderer granted euthanasia in prison

seamus

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29209459

Every time the death sentence comes up, I make the point that those convicted of such serious crimes should be given the option of life imprisonment or euthanasia. That, in theory, gives you a release clause, where those who know themselves to be innocent aren't automatically robbed of their lives because the system fncked up.

This is slightly different because he's not asked to die just because he's in prison, rather because he's been deemed to be suffering - but suffering psychologically rather than physically.

Which kind of makes it groundbreaking; not only has he won his right to die while in prison but he also successfully convinced the system that psychological suffering is as serious as physical suffering and therefore should be a condition under which euthanasia is permitted.

What say you, AH? Should we allow people in psychological anguish the right to end their suffering permanently? Should we allow prisoners this right?

RobertKK

He did the crimes and now wants to end the punishment?

He should be given mental healthcare treatment, not an early release from his sentence for murder and rape.

Darkglasses

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/05/nathan-verhelst-euthanasia-belgium_n_4046106.html

I read this article last night, another euthanasia case in Belgium. Euthanasia for psychological anguish is not hugely rare by the sounds of things. The commission's 2012 report shows that non-terminally ill patients account for less than 10 percent of cases.

The Purveyor of Truth

It would make me more likely to commit crime if death was an option.

As the main reason I don't rob banks is because I'm seriously claustrophobic and afraid of what would happen if I got caught.

King George VI

No, I don't believe prisoners should have the right to die. Next they'll be asking for colour television and tamagotchis and moon pie.

P_1

Feck me that's a tough one. On the one hand the murderer should suffer some form of mental anguish as a penance for the crime he committed but on the other hand I am always in favour of people maintaining the right to full body integrity (and this includes allowing them the choice to end their life whenever they choose).

OscarXC7

He is a murderer. He should be made serve the full sentence for the crimes he committed. He does not deserve to be allowed to die just because he is suffering. He clearly did not care about the suffering of his victim(s) while he raped and murdered them.

pickarooney

What difference does it make to anyone how much he suffers? How does it affect your life or the lives of his victims' families?

Akrasia

Ignoring the wider question about whether psychological suffering should be grounds for euthanasia, I'll just look at the prisoner dilemma for now.

Should prisoners be facilitated to end their lives if they no longer wish to continue living?

The answer depends on what you believe prison is for.

If you believe that it's primarily there to punish and exact revenge on those who have harmed, then you will probably object to allowing someone end their life as this is 'escaping their punishment'

I find this position a little bit disturbing. It says a lot about the psychology of the people who hold this position that they think the world can be improved by the imposition of further suffering. I disagree. I don't think making one person suffer will relieve or make up for the suffering that they may have caused to others.

If you believe that prison is a necessary evil whose purpose is to protect the rest of society from dangerous individuals, then the real question should be about why the conditions in prison are so psychologically harmful that a prisoner would rather die than live there, and (more strikingly) that a court would agree and grant this request. If prisoners are clinically depressed, are they receiving proper treatment for this condition?

Thirdly, the argument that prison is a deterrent to prevent others from committing crimes. According to this argument Prison needs to be harsh and it should involve suffering in order to deter others from committing crimes.
I don't think there is any evidence that harsh prison conditions reduce the rate of crime or recidivism. in fact, I think that the most humane and forward thinking justice systems are the most successful at preventing crimes and reducing the amount of repeat offenders

Lastly, are prisons a place to rehabilitate people so that they can be released back as productive members of society who are no longer a risk to others.
This may not apply to people who never going to be released from jail, but perhaps even those incarcarated for life without parole could still find a useful place within the prison where they could find some meaningful routine


On the wider question, euthenasia for people suffering psychological pain. We already have self prescribed euthanasia in the form of suicide. Anyone who is physically capable, can end his/her own life at any time. Perhaps having formal mechanisms where people suffering psychological suffering can apply to have their life ended by euthanasia would actually save lives. It's a fact of life and most families in Ireland have some direct experience of suicide. I find it hard to see how allowing legal eutnanasia for people suffering psychological suffering would make things worse than they are now. Anyone who applied for such a service would be assessed and if there is help available to improve their circumstances, then they might be better able to access it and improve their situation without ever ending their lives.

And even if they did end up ending their lives, it would be a more humane ending to end your life surrounded by family and friends than to do so alone in an act of violence that someone else will have to stumble upon later on....

OscarXC7

pickarooney wrote: »

What difference does it make to anyone how much he suffers? How does it affect your life or the lives of his victims' families?

It makes no difference to me personally. But do you not think that he should have to serve the full sentence for his crime? Death seems like taking the easy way out (although I will admit that death is death, that it is the end of his life, and that it is not an "easy" option).

RobertKK

pickarooney wrote: »

What difference does it make to anyone how much he suffers? How does it affect your life or the lives of his victims' families?

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

Egginacup

RobertKK wrote: »

He did the crimes and now wants to end the punishment?

He should be given mental healthcare treatment, not an early release from his sentence for murder and rape.

So you're only interested in vengeance and not punishment. If you're not happy with the punishment would you advocate adding to it like beating a guy once a day while he's serving his life sentence.

Some people just hate to see anyone else catch a break, even if that break has no effect on them one way or another.

pickarooney

OscarXC7 wrote: »

It makes no difference to me personally. But do you not think that he should have to serve the full sentence for his crime? Death seems like taking the easy way out (although I will admit that death is death, that it is the end of his life, and that it is not an "easy" option).

No, I think it's a ludicrous premise that death is the easy way out of anything. Whether he serves the sentence or not makes no odds. His death would save some cash and free up a space for more prisoners. Although if I remember right, Belgium actually has an excess of prison places and rents them out to other countries.

RobertKK wrote: »

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

I don't know if you've ever actually played Monopoly but the card in question allows you to return to the game and continue accuumulating wealth. If a player wants to quit the game entirely, nobody is stopping them.

Akrasia

RobertKK wrote: »

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

How does forcing someone to suffer make society a better place?

RobertKK

Egginacup wrote: »

So you're only interested in vengeance and not punishment. If you're not happy with the punishment would you advocate adding to it like beating a guy once a day while he's serving his life sentence.

Some people just hate to see anyone else catch a break, even if that break has no effect on them one way or another.

Yes a rapist and a murderer really just needs a break in life. The person in question will spend the rest of their life in jail as the article says he still has the sexual urges that led to him committing most awful crimes.
He can't be rehabilitated, but he can be given mental healthcare.
If he caught a break it would be just to rape another most unfortunate woman.
We have seen this type of thing with our own liberal bail laws for people who committed serious crimes.

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't know if you've ever actually played Monopoly but the card in question allows you to return to the game and continue accuumulating wealth. If a player wants to quit the game entirely, nobody is stopping them.

They can quit the game but still alive to play it again.

RobertKK

Akrasia wrote: »

How does forcing someone to suffer make society a better place?

Why is he suffering?
Is he getting treatment for his mental problems?

We can all do something wrong but killing oneself is not a solution.

dr.bollocko

This will upset people.

"These murderers should be strung up! Wasting tax payer money feeding him in prison?!"

"But that's what he wants."


"He shouldn't have the right to die! Let him rot in prison!"

"... But you just said..."

"Shut up PC BRIGADE"

pickarooney

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes a rapist and a murderer really just needs a break in life. The person in question will spend the rest of their life in jail as the article says he still has the sexual urges that led to him committing most awful crimes.
He can't be rehabilitated, but he can be given mental healthcare.
If he caught a break it would be just to rape another most unfortunate woman.
We have seen this type of thing with our own liberal bail laws for people who committed serious crimes.



They can quit the game but still alive to play it again.

If you're going to go into reincarnation then you'd have to assume the victims also came back to life in another form, but it's frankly a bizarre argument.

RobertKK

pickarooney wrote: »

If you're going to go into reincarnation then you'd have to assume the victims also came back to life in another form, but it's frankly a bizarre argument.

Nah, it is like living on the space station, you can live in live but drop back into life on the ground.

No prisoner who commits a serious crime should be given options where they can choose to put an end to the sentence they received.
Basically in this case it is saying: we should accept people who are suicidal should be helped to kill themselves.
This person needs the help of professionals who work in the mental heathcare area.

Akrasia

RobertKK wrote: »

Why is he suffering?
Is he getting treatment for his mental problems?

We can all do something wrong but killing oneself is not a solution.

Killing violent criminals used to be the solution, not very long ago at all

We got rid of the death penalty for crimes like rape and murder because as a society, we decided that it was too barbaric for society to engage in the act of killing people as punishment and that we should deal with these people removing their liberty and attempting to rehabilitate them.

If someone wants to die rather than spend their lives in prison, then it absolves society from the barbarism of killing people as punishment, and it also solves the problem of having to deal with a dangerous prisoner who can never be released.

Ush1

Hmm, being in prison, a certain amount of psychological suffering is inevitable. Just living in the modern world, people often suffer psychologically anyway.

I'd for one be curious if it is a mental condition, possibly alleviated via drugs and therapy?

Also, prison is not supposed to be nice. You have lost your freedom, this will effect you most of all in your mind. You can't be legally physically punished in the same way.

sbsquarepants

seamus wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29209459

Every time the death sentence comes up, I make the point that those convicted of such serious crimes should be given the option of life imprisonment or euthanasia. That, in theory, gives you a release clause, where those who know themselves to be innocent aren't automatically robbed of their lives because the system fncked up.
?

Aren't robbed of their lives......by being killed?

somesoldiers

why can't he just tear up a sheet and seal the deal with a banana skin or something similar on the floor?

RobertKK

Akrasia wrote: »

Killing violent criminals used to be the solution, not very long ago at all

We got rid of the death penalty for crimes like rape and murder because as a society, we decided that it was too barbaric for society to engage in the act of killing people as punishment and that we should deal with these people removing their liberty and attempting to rehabilitate them.

If someone wants to die rather than spend their lives in prison, then it absolves society from the barbarism of killing people as punishment, and it also solves the problem of having to deal with a dangerous prisoner who can never be released.

We got rid of it because technology allowed us to have secure prisons, rather than prisoners escaping rather easily.

Guy:Incognito

Cells in prisons could have a hole in the ceiling that a threaded ring could be screwed in to.l (like a towing eye on a car). Sell the rings and lengths of rope in the prison shop. Much cheaper than housing them or killing them.

Baron Kurtz

"Yes they deserve to die, and I hope they burn in hell!!!"

Little CuChulainn

RobertKK wrote: »

He did the crimes and now wants to end the punishment?

He should be given mental healthcare treatment, not an early release from his sentence for murder and rape.

Never understood this stance. He'd be dead. He's hardly avoiding punishment.

Baron Kurtz

He actually needs gunishment.

RobertKK

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Never understood this stance. He'd be dead. He's hardly avoiding punishment.

Death to some people is a way of escape - mostly people with mental health problems.

Akrasia

RobertKK wrote: »

We got rid of it because technology allowed us to have secure prisons, rather than prisoners escaping rather easily.

Where did you hear that?

Little CuChulainn

RobertKK wrote: »

Death to some people is a way of escape - mostly people with mental health problems.

How does that affect you though? Whether he's dead or in prison he's no longer an issue for you. Unless you have some need for him to be suffering in some way.