Right to Die debate: Belgian murderer granted euthanasia in prison

seamus · 16-09-2014 1:06pm #1

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29209459

Every time the death sentence comes up, I make the point that those convicted of such serious crimes should be given the option of life imprisonment or euthanasia. That, in theory, gives you a release clause, where those who know themselves to be innocent aren't automatically robbed of their lives because the system fncked up.

This is slightly different because he's not asked to die just because he's in prison, rather because he's been deemed to be suffering - but suffering psychologically rather than physically.

Which kind of makes it groundbreaking; not only has he won his right to die while in prison but he also successfully convinced the system that psychological suffering is as serious as physical suffering and therefore should be a condition under which euthanasia is permitted.

What say you, AH? Should we allow people in psychological anguish the right to end their suffering permanently? Should we allow prisoners this right?

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 1:13pm

He did the crimes and now wants to end the punishment?

He should be given mental healthcare treatment, not an early release from his sentence for murder and rape.

Darkglasses · 16-09-2014 1:15pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/05/nathan-verhelst-euthanasia-belgium_n_4046106.html

I read this article last night, another euthanasia case in Belgium. Euthanasia for psychological anguish is not hugely rare by the sounds of things. The commission's 2012 report shows that non-terminally ill patients account for less than 10 percent of cases.

The Purveyor of Truth · 16-09-2014 1:16pm

It would make me more likely to commit crime if death was an option.

As the main reason I don't rob banks is because I'm seriously claustrophobic and afraid of what would happen if I got caught.

King George VI · 16-09-2014 1:17pm

No, I don't believe prisoners should have the right to die. Next they'll be asking for colour television and tamagotchis and moon pie.

P_1 · 16-09-2014 1:19pm

Feck me that's a tough one. On the one hand the murderer should suffer some form of mental anguish as a penance for the crime he committed but on the other hand I am always in favour of people maintaining the right to full body integrity (and this includes allowing them the choice to end their life whenever they choose).

OscarXC7 · 16-09-2014 1:20pm

He is a murderer. He should be made serve the full sentence for the crimes he committed. He does not deserve to be allowed to die just because he is suffering. He clearly did not care about the suffering of his victim(s) while he raped and murdered them.

pickarooney · 16-09-2014 1:24pm

What difference does it make to anyone how much he suffers? How does it affect your life or the lives of his victims' families?

Akrasia · 16-09-2014 1:28pm

Ignoring the wider question about whether psychological suffering should be grounds for euthanasia, I'll just look at the prisoner dilemma for now.

Should prisoners be facilitated to end their lives if they no longer wish to continue living?

The answer depends on what you believe prison is for.

If you believe that it's primarily there to punish and exact revenge on those who have harmed, then you will probably object to allowing someone end their life as this is 'escaping their punishment'

I find this position a little bit disturbing. It says a lot about the psychology of the people who hold this position that they think the world can be improved by the imposition of further suffering. I disagree. I don't think making one person suffer will relieve or make up for the suffering that they may have caused to others.

If you believe that prison is a necessary evil whose purpose is to protect the rest of society from dangerous individuals, then the real question should be about why the conditions in prison are so psychologically harmful that a prisoner would rather die than live there, and (more strikingly) that a court would agree and grant this request. If prisoners are clinically depressed, are they receiving proper treatment for this condition?

Thirdly, the argument that prison is a deterrent to prevent others from committing crimes. According to this argument Prison needs to be harsh and it should involve suffering in order to deter others from committing crimes.
I don't think there is any evidence that harsh prison conditions reduce the rate of crime or recidivism. in fact, I think that the most humane and forward thinking justice systems are the most successful at preventing crimes and reducing the amount of repeat offenders

Lastly, are prisons a place to rehabilitate people so that they can be released back as productive members of society who are no longer a risk to others.
This may not apply to people who never going to be released from jail, but perhaps even those incarcarated for life without parole could still find a useful place within the prison where they could find some meaningful routine

On the wider question, euthenasia for people suffering psychological pain. We already have self prescribed euthanasia in the form of suicide. Anyone who is physically capable, can end his/her own life at any time. Perhaps having formal mechanisms where people suffering psychological suffering can apply to have their life ended by euthanasia would actually save lives. It's a fact of life and most families in Ireland have some direct experience of suicide. I find it hard to see how allowing legal eutnanasia for people suffering psychological suffering would make things worse than they are now. Anyone who applied for such a service would be assessed and if there is help available to improve their circumstances, then they might be better able to access it and improve their situation without ever ending their lives.

And even if they did end up ending their lives, it would be a more humane ending to end your life surrounded by family and friends than to do so alone in an act of violence that someone else will have to stumble upon later on....

OscarXC7 · 16-09-2014 1:28pm

pickarooney wrote: »

What difference does it make to anyone how much he suffers? How does it affect your life or the lives of his victims' families?

It makes no difference to me personally. But do you not think that he should have to serve the full sentence for his crime? Death seems like taking the easy way out (although I will admit that death is death, that it is the end of his life, and that it is not an "easy" option).

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 1:29pm

pickarooney wrote: »

What difference does it make to anyone how much he suffers? How does it affect your life or the lives of his victims' families?

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

Egginacup · 16-09-2014 1:34pm

RobertKK wrote: »

He did the crimes and now wants to end the punishment?

He should be given mental healthcare treatment, not an early release from his sentence for murder and rape.

So you're only interested in vengeance and not punishment. If you're not happy with the punishment would you advocate adding to it like beating a guy once a day while he's serving his life sentence.

Some people just hate to see anyone else catch a break, even if that break has no effect on them one way or another.

pickarooney · 16-09-2014 1:35pm

OscarXC7 wrote: »

It makes no difference to me personally. But do you not think that he should have to serve the full sentence for his crime? Death seems like taking the easy way out (although I will admit that death is death, that it is the end of his life, and that it is not an "easy" option).

No, I think it's a ludicrous premise that death is the easy way out of anything. Whether he serves the sentence or not makes no odds. His death would save some cash and free up a space for more prisoners. Although if I remember right, Belgium actually has an excess of prison places and rents them out to other countries.

RobertKK wrote: »

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

I don't know if you've ever actually played Monopoly but the card in question allows you to return to the game and continue accuumulating wealth. If a player wants to quit the game entirely, nobody is stopping them.

Akrasia · 16-09-2014 1:38pm

RobertKK wrote: »

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

How does forcing someone to suffer make society a better place?

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 1:42pm

Egginacup wrote: »

So you're only interested in vengeance and not punishment. If you're not happy with the punishment would you advocate adding to it like beating a guy once a day while he's serving his life sentence.

Some people just hate to see anyone else catch a break, even if that break has no effect on them one way or another.

Yes a rapist and a murderer really just needs a break in life. The person in question will spend the rest of their life in jail as the article says he still has the sexual urges that led to him committing most awful crimes.
He can't be rehabilitated, but he can be given mental healthcare.
If he caught a break it would be just to rape another most unfortunate woman.
We have seen this type of thing with our own liberal bail laws for people who committed serious crimes.

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't know if you've ever actually played Monopoly but the card in question allows you to return to the game and continue accuumulating wealth. If a player wants to quit the game entirely, nobody is stopping them.

They can quit the game but still alive to play it again.

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 1:43pm

Akrasia wrote: »

How does forcing someone to suffer make society a better place?

Why is he suffering?
Is he getting treatment for his mental problems?

We can all do something wrong but killing oneself is not a solution.

dr.bollocko · 16-09-2014 1:44pm

This will upset people.

"These murderers should be strung up! Wasting tax payer money feeding him in prison?!"

"But that's what he wants."

"He shouldn't have the right to die! Let him rot in prison!"

"... But you just said..."

"Shut up PC BRIGADE"

pickarooney · 16-09-2014 1:50pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Yes a rapist and a murderer really just needs a break in life. The person in question will spend the rest of their life in jail as the article says he still has the sexual urges that led to him committing most awful crimes.
He can't be rehabilitated, but he can be given mental healthcare.
If he caught a break it would be just to rape another most unfortunate woman.
We have seen this type of thing with our own liberal bail laws for people who committed serious crimes.

They can quit the game but still alive to play it again.

If you're going to go into reincarnation then you'd have to assume the victims also came back to life in another form, but it's frankly a bizarre argument.

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 1:55pm

pickarooney wrote: »

If you're going to go into reincarnation then you'd have to assume the victims also came back to life in another form, but it's frankly a bizarre argument.

Nah, it is like living on the space station, you can live in live but drop back into life on the ground.

No prisoner who commits a serious crime should be given options where they can choose to put an end to the sentence they received.
Basically in this case it is saying: we should accept people who are suicidal should be helped to kill themselves.
This person needs the help of professionals who work in the mental heathcare area.

Akrasia · 16-09-2014 2:01pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Why is he suffering?
Is he getting treatment for his mental problems?

We can all do something wrong but killing oneself is not a solution.

Killing violent criminals used to be the solution, not very long ago at all

We got rid of the death penalty for crimes like rape and murder because as a society, we decided that it was too barbaric for society to engage in the act of killing people as punishment and that we should deal with these people removing their liberty and attempting to rehabilitate them.

If someone wants to die rather than spend their lives in prison, then it absolves society from the barbarism of killing people as punishment, and it also solves the problem of having to deal with a dangerous prisoner who can never be released.

Ush1 · 16-09-2014 2:02pm

Hmm, being in prison, a certain amount of psychological suffering is inevitable. Just living in the modern world, people often suffer psychologically anyway.

I'd for one be curious if it is a mental condition, possibly alleviated via drugs and therapy?

Also, prison is not supposed to be nice. You have lost your freedom, this will effect you most of all in your mind. You can't be legally physically punished in the same way.

sbsquarepants · 16-09-2014 2:04pm

seamus wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29209459

Every time the death sentence comes up, I make the point that those convicted of such serious crimes should be given the option of life imprisonment or euthanasia. That, in theory, gives you a release clause, where those who know themselves to be innocent aren't automatically robbed of their lives because the system fncked up.
?

Aren't robbed of their lives......by being killed?

somesoldiers · 16-09-2014 2:08pm

why can't he just tear up a sheet and seal the deal with a banana skin or something similar on the floor?

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 2:19pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Killing violent criminals used to be the solution, not very long ago at all

We got rid of the death penalty for crimes like rape and murder because as a society, we decided that it was too barbaric for society to engage in the act of killing people as punishment and that we should deal with these people removing their liberty and attempting to rehabilitate them.

If someone wants to die rather than spend their lives in prison, then it absolves society from the barbarism of killing people as punishment, and it also solves the problem of having to deal with a dangerous prisoner who can never be released.

We got rid of it because technology allowed us to have secure prisons, rather than prisoners escaping rather easily.

Guy:Incognito · 16-09-2014 2:46pm

Cells in prisons could have a hole in the ceiling that a threaded ring could be screwed in to.l (like a towing eye on a car). Sell the rings and lengths of rope in the prison shop. Much cheaper than housing them or killing them.

Baron Kurtz · 16-09-2014 2:53pm

"Yes they deserve to die, and I hope they burn in hell!!!"

Little CuChulainn · 16-09-2014 2:54pm

RobertKK wrote: »

He did the crimes and now wants to end the punishment?

He should be given mental healthcare treatment, not an early release from his sentence for murder and rape.

Never understood this stance. He'd be dead. He's hardly avoiding punishment.

Baron Kurtz · 16-09-2014 2:58pm

He actually needs gunishment.

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 3:12pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Never understood this stance. He'd be dead. He's hardly avoiding punishment.

Death to some people is a way of escape - mostly people with mental health problems.

Akrasia · 16-09-2014 3:47pm

RobertKK wrote: »

We got rid of it because technology allowed us to have secure prisons, rather than prisoners escaping rather easily.

Where did you hear that?

Little CuChulainn · 16-09-2014 3:49pm

RobertKK wrote: »

Death to some people is a way of escape - mostly people with mental health problems.

How does that affect you though? Whether he's dead or in prison he's no longer an issue for you. Unless you have some need for him to be suffering in some way.

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 3:55pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Where did you hear that?

Looking at history and how prison escapes became less and less, the need for executions went he same way.
You could put someone in prison for life because one could be assured the security would keep the person locked away from society.

If prisons weren't secure, the death penalty would still exist for murderers.
For society in the past, the death penalty was the best option for the safety of the public. We don't worry about dangerous prisoners escaping these days.

RobertKK · 16-09-2014 3:56pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

How does that affect you though? Whether he's dead or in prison he's no longer an issue for you. Unless you have some need for him to be suffering in some way.

It is basically saying if someone is suicidal, we should help them die, and not give them mental healthcare.

sashafierce · 16-09-2014 4:12pm

This post has been deleted.

seamus · 17-09-2014 9:04am

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Aren't robbed of their lives......by being killed?

To clarify, one the major downfalls of the death penalty is that it's impossible to guarantee an innocent man won't be put to death.
If you offer the choice of death for violent crimes, then at least ethically you can know that the person has chosen to die, an innocent person hasn't had their life forcibly taken from them.

Ush1 · 17-09-2014 9:10am

seamus wrote: »

To clarify, one the major downfalls of the death penalty is that it's impossible to guarantee an innocent man won't be put to death.
If you offer the choice of death for violent crimes, then at least ethically you can know that the person has chosen to die, an innocent person hasn't had their life forcibly taken from them.

Except it's not really ethical. A person may be so convinced they have no hope despite the fact they're innocent and just decide to end it there and then.

Could you support people in general having the option to be euthanized, despite being physically fine?

Akrasia · 17-09-2014 9:33am

More details have emerged on this case. Apparently, the reason the guy wants to die is partly due to anguish that he has these uncontrollable urges to commit violence and he can not live with the psychological suffering of knowing that he has committed great harm, and would commit more harm if he was ever given the opportunity

He has been assessed by many psychiatrists and they agree that the guy is probably 'incurable.'

osarusan · 17-09-2014 9:34am

dr.bollocko wrote: »

This will upset people.

"These murderers should be strung up! Wasting tax payer money feeding him in prison?!"

"But that's what he wants."

"He shouldn't have the right to die! Let him rot in prison!"

"... But you just said..."

"Shut up PC BRIGADE"

Spot on.

seamus · 17-09-2014 10:36am

Ush1 wrote: »

Except it's not really ethical. A person may be so convinced they have no hope despite the fact they're innocent and just decide to end it there and then.

Agreed that it's not whiter-than-white but it's certainly a world away from a death sentence because the individual is still given the domain over their life.

Could you support people in general having the option to be euthanized, despite being physically fine?

In principle, yes. Because life being unbearable is not limited to physical pain or physical limitations, and we have to acknowledge that at least for the foreseeable future that there are many psychological conditions that are beyond treatment and leave one with unbearable suffering.

In theory I see no reason why people shouldn't be permitted to just end it, even if they're not suffering. "I'm bored, I'd like to check out". It's their life, they should be free to do with it as they see fit.
But there is obviously a middle ground here - nobody wants to die, they do it because they see no other option, no other point in being here. So obviously there is an onus on society to help them, to open up the world to them and let them see the options, let them see what the rest of us see when we enjoy life. But there will always be those for whom it's not possible, and for them when faced with voluntary euthanasia or being forcibly locked up in an institution for their own protection, I think the former is easily the better of two evils.

Amirani · 17-09-2014 11:23am

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Murder and rape are more common in countries that have severe sentencing, such as the United States, than it is in Scandanavia countries (or even Canada where you seem to be located). There's very little evidence to suggest that more punitive sentences have any significant effect on murder and rape levels.

Grayson · 17-09-2014 11:30am

Akrasia wrote: »

More details have emerged on this case. Apparently, the reason the guy wants to die is partly due to anguish that he has these uncontrollable urges to commit violence and he can not live with the psychological suffering of knowing that he has committed great harm, and would commit more harm if he was ever given the opportunity

He has been assessed by many psychiatrists and they agree that the guy is probably 'incurable.'

I was going to mention this. It says something about the guy that he would rather die before he committed another crime.
People label them monsters but I'm pretty certain this guy would do anything to make himself better so he could have a normal life. Knowing what you're like and having that much self hatred, yet being unable to change, must be horrible.

That he'd rather kill himself rather than have those insane urges shows an element of humanity that most people would deny he had.

Billy86 · 17-09-2014 11:33am

RobertKK wrote: »

It is like playing monopoly, you are sent to jail, but you have the get out of jail card.
It is the prisoner deciding his fate, and not the justice system.

Actually to complete that analogy, wouldn't using the get out of jail free card mean you had to quit the game immediately and never, ever play monopoly again?

pickarooney · 17-09-2014 11:37am

seamus wrote: »

But there is obviously a middle ground here - nobody wants to die, they do it because they see no other option, no other point in being here. So obviously there is an onus on society to help them, to open up the world to them and let them see the options, let them see what the rest of us see when we enjoy life. But there will always be those for whom it's not possible, and for them when faced with voluntary euthanasia or being forcibly locked up in an institution for their own protection, I think the former is easily the better of two evils.

What about all the millions of people who believe in an afterlife or reincarnation? There must be loads who can't wait to die and get out of their ****ty existence and into a better one. Should we try and stop this based on our beliefs that they're very badly mistaken?

youtube! · 17-09-2014 11:42am

Slightly off topic but one that always nade me curious, What concoction of drugs do they use to euthanase a person and is it in effect the same as the lethal injection used in death penalty cases? Reason I ask is because it seems lately that the old lethal injection doesn't seem to be always effective due to the prisons being unable to always procure the right drugs.

Billy86 · 17-09-2014 11:47am

Diego Simeone wrote: »

Murder and rape are more common in countries that have severe sentencing, such as the United States, than it is in Scandanavia countries (or even Canada where you seem to be located). There's very little evidence to suggest that more punitive sentences have any significant effect on murder and rape levels.

Even within the US itself, the murder rate is higher on a state by state basis for those with the death penalty than without.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

Of the top 22 murder rates (by state) in the US, only three do not have the death penalty. Those three are Michigan (4th highest) , Illinois (12th) and New Mexico (14th), all of which have massive drug/poverty/gang issues in certain areas.

Always found that interesting, really does negate the "kill them all, scare society straight!" mentality.

Riddle101 · 17-09-2014 11:54am

I don't know about prisoners, but I do think people should be given the choice of assisted suicide outside of prison. For instance I would have it, that if I ever ended up getting Alzheimer's disease, I would like to apply for the option of assisted suicide. I hate the thought of Alzheimer's because I've seen it first hand with my grand mother. It's a terrible disease and wouldn't want to live with it.

Da Shins Kelly · 17-09-2014 12:15pm

Apparently part of his argument was that the state failed to provide him with adequate therapy and he asked to be transferred to a specialist psychiatric facility in the Netherlands, so it sounds like there's been some failing on the state's part. The whole thing could raise some questions about the level of mental health assistance bring offered to prisoners in Belgium the first place.

Part of the argument too was that he is suffering mental anguish because he has no prospect of being released. Pretty weak argument. If you get life imprisonment for rape and murder, you should really accept that you might not be released and that shouldn't really be a valid reason for seeking or being granted the right to assisted suicide.

On one hand, I do feel like he should be made to live out his sentence. He was given life in prison, not life in prison with the option of euthanasia once you've realized what a sh*tty person you are. The family of one of his victims isn't happy about it either, saying that he has received more attention and care than they ever did in the aftermath of their loved one bring murdered, and he should be made to serve his time as it was handed down. I'd kinda be inclined to agree and I sympathize with them if they feel like justice is being evaded here.

On the other hand, it sounds like nothing is going to be done for him at this stage. I'm sure it costs quite a bit of money to keep him (although I wonder what kind of bill these legal proceedings and the eventual euthanasia are running up) and if he wants to die, it's hardly much of a loss to society. It's just that this seems like a complicated case. How do you even prove that a condition like his is incurable?

Funnily enough, on a related note, hasn't Ian Brady been whinging about his right to die for years now? He's probably wishing he committed his crimes in Belgium.

seamus · 17-09-2014 4:37pm

pickarooney wrote: »

What about all the millions of people who believe in an afterlife or reincarnation? There must be loads who can't wait to die and get out of their ****ty existence and into a better one. Should we try and stop this based on our beliefs that they're very badly mistaken?

I would like to see if that's actually the case. More likely there are loads of people who can't wait for the afterlife but aren't willing to voluntarily go and check if it's there.

If so many millions of people are so sure that there's an afterlife which is better than this one, why are they so reluctant to die?

As a philosophical exercise however, if someone is convinced that they need to die and they are only making that decision for themselves and not for someone else, then why do I get domain to tell them that they can't?

With caveats in place of course to ensure that they're fully aware of the decision they're making and the effects it will have.

krudler · 17-09-2014 4:41pm

dr.bollocko wrote: »

This will upset people.

"These murderers should be strung up! Wasting tax payer money feeding him in prison?!"

"But that's what he wants."

"He shouldn't have the right to die! Let him rot in prison!"

"... But you just said..."

"Shut up PC BRIGADE"

He should be killed! but only in the way we find acceptable! rabble rabble rabble!

seamus · 17-09-2014 4:42pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Even within the US itself, the murder rate is higher on a state by state basis for those with the death penalty than without.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state

Of the top 22 murder rates (by state) in the US, only three do not have the death penalty. Those three are Michigan (4th highest) , Illinois (12th) and New Mexico (14th), all of which have massive drug/poverty/gang issues in certain areas.

Always found that interesting, really does negate the "kill them all, scare society straight!" mentality.

There are suggestions that heavily punitive justice systems in fact encourage otherwise "ordinary" crimes to become more violent because of the "in for a penny" mentality. That is, if armed burglary gets you 20 years in prison, then you can't make things much worse by killing the occupants. In fact you reduce your chances of being caught by increasing the violence in your crime and eliminating the witnesses.

On the other hand, if it's 8 years with the chance of parole for that crime, then you know that if you assault the occupants, never mind kill them, it becomes a much more severe sentence, so you may make more of an effort to avoid any interaction.

krudler · 17-09-2014 4:43pm

I'm going to play a drinking game today, a shot for every time "liberal" "bleeding heart" or the double points accumulator "pc brigade" are used on this thread, I expect to be dead by page 5, send my widow a ham.

Right to Die debate: Belgian murderer granted euthanasia in prison

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