Sat 13th Sept

jimjamcos

UrbanFret wrote: »

One thing is now certain. Coolmore have a really big decision to make. They won't go for the arc (although by winning that his star would rise again). so that leaves the champion or the QE2, either way there's an ambush waiting for him in both. Free eagle certainly looked the part(backed up by the time) The grey Gatsby won't shirk the issue either plus several other more than capable performers will turn up in the former whilst kingman lies in wait in the QE2. Not sure the breeders will come running with their mares just yet!

I'd have him odds on to retire. Think they'll weigh it up like you have, and dangers outweigh the benefits of running again IMO. A slight injury in a week or two will be it I'd guess.

FIVE2_THREE

jimjamcos wrote: »

Jesus Christ, that is some poor logic. What do you expect 'us people' to judge the horse on? Believe, like you clearly do, that he's one of the great horses just because his trainer tells us, standard of race is irrelevant eh!? Fact is the horse won two average Derbies, was never pulling away in the English. Those are facts.

I have never said anything about him being the greatest, what I did say however is that he can't hand pick his competition. what shows up shows up. I notice you people lay in wait waiting for a horse to lose and then jump out of the bushes yelling told you so when it happens. I guess that's a good strategy. wouldn't want to look bad by coming out early.

Bangor Billy

UrbanFret wrote: »

One thing is now certain. Coolmore have a really big decision to make. They won't go for the arc (although by winning that his star would rise again). so that leaves the champion or the QE2, either way there's an ambush waiting for him in both. Free eagle certainly looked the part(backed up by the time) The grey Gatsby won't shirk the issue either plus several other more than capable performers will turn up in the former whilst kingman lies in wait in the QE2. Not sure the breeders will come running with their mares just yet!

Kingman now a doubt for the QE2 (throat infection).

LutherBlissett

Apparently Joseph O'Brien weighed in a pound overweight after the Champion Stakes. Personally, I think the leaving of a gap up his inner that you could have driven a lorry through was the undoing of Australia, not that, but still, how much longer can that situation continue?

Morgans

Joseph guilty of going too soon. Maybe he wanted to close the gap on Mukhadram who was tanking with the pacemakers. I think its obvious why he didnt want to go up the inner - collapsing pacemakers with his dangers outside him. It doesnt mean that he needed to be quite as wide as he ended up. The winner is good and was more cleverly ridden coming off a strong pace. Australia ran a cracker given the circumstances.

Not sure if O'Brien has ever said that he is was the best they have ever trained. Its something that the media love to quote, even when he says that he may be the best....or he has the potential...... Robert Hall saying that "while he only beat TGG by 2l at York it could have been 4l or 5l if he wanted." That was untrue before the race and its all part of the "narrative". Australia is a well above average Derby winner and with different circumstances could reverse the placings with TGG (whether he gets the chance)

Gringo180

LutherBlissett wrote: »

Apparently Joseph O'Brien weighed in a pound overweight after the Champion Stakes. Personally, I think the leaving of a gap up his inner that you could have driven a lorry through was the undoing of Australia, not that, but still, how much longer can that situation continue?

If thats true he should be fcuked out for that, its twice he has been over weight after a Group 1 race, such thin lines at this level, that extra pound made the difference between victory and defeat.

barney4001

Gringo180 wrote: »

If thats true he should be fcuked out for that, its twice he has been over weight after a Group 1 race, such thin lines at this level, that extra pound made the difference between victory and defeat.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/racing/joseph-o-brien-weighed-in-heavy-after-australia-defeat-1.1928511

tryfix

Gringo180 wrote: »

If thats true he should be fcuked out for that, its twice he has been over weight after a Group 1 race, such thin lines at this level, that extra pound made the difference between victory and defeat.

Yep it's true and Ted Walsh was trying to make out it didn't make a difference, but of course it did that's why handicaps exist to slow horse by adding weight, as did the crap ride. Coolmore are looking at a horse who's had a big dent put in his reputation simply because of their using a jockey who's not the most suitable for the job in hand and repairing that dent may not be possible.

NaiveMelodies

tryfix wrote: »

Yep it's true and Ted Walsh was trying to make out it didn't make a difference, but of course it did that's why handicaps exist to slow horse by adding weight, as did the crap ride. Coolmore are looking at a horse who's had a big dent put in his reputation simply because of their using a jockey who's not the most suitable for the job in hand and repairing that dent may not be possible.

Ted's response annoyed me too. Misinforming the public, and potential new racing fans that might have been watching, isn't sound.

Gringo180

barney4001 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/racing/joseph-o-brien-weighed-in-heavy-after-australia-defeat-1.1928511

Thats the Champion and Oaks he has lost because he has weighed in a lb and 2 too heavy. Its a disgrace, whats a lb over 10f pretty sure its about half a length or so and 2lb over 12f is 2 lengths.

curioser

only1stevo wrote: »

Ted's response annoyed me too. Misinforming the public, and potential new racing fans that might have been watching, isn't sound.

It can't be conducive to impartial commentary on racing in Ireland to have Ted, a racehorse trainer and father of a jockey, expected to give a dispassionate view on other trainers, and their jockey offspring. Ted always defends the racing community and lambastes anybody who dares to criticise a trainer or jockey or owner.

Gregk961

I have no problem with joseph and wouldnt be one for criticising tactics etc but by weighing in overweight in two narrow defeats, in major races and within a handful of weeks indicates he is no longer capable of performing his job and should be relieved of his duty.

Harry Angstrom

curioser wrote: »

It can't be conducive to impartial commentary on racing in Ireland to have Ted, a racehorse trainer and father of a jockey, expected to give a dispassionate view on other trainers, and their jockey offspring. Ted always defends the racing community and lambastes anybody who dares to criticise a trainer or jockey or owner.

Agree 100%. Ted is scared sh!tless to criticise anybody in the tight-knit racing community, and he certainly wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of Coolmore. His comparison of being 1Ib overweight with it being akin to somebody losing a hanky is just plain asinine and ignorant.

Andalucia

Ted knows how the bread is buttered, in the incestous Irish racing community, you dare not offend anyone in public, especially one of the O'Brien clan.

the ride Joey gave Australia was a complete shocker, the ride given to Leading Light was worse.

They've tried everything to get Moore full time, but he won't commit - such a shame, as the best jockey should be riding the best horses.

They should go to plan B now, and decide who is best of the rest to suit their needs - its certainly not Joey, how much longer Magnier and Tabor will stand for this I'm not sure

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

Once again people reading way too much into what the trainer says. Muhammad Ali said he was the greatest of ALL TIME!!! how much stock do you put into that? as Far as Australia being an average horse that could't be further from the truth how many "average horses" win two Derbies ?

To be fair to Ali in the opinion of a hell of a lot of people he was/is. Boxing is all about confidence, the horses dont hear Aidan and go, "I must be brilliant to be the best he has ever had"

Come off it man, you were positively creaming yourself about Australia and IIRC you had him in the same category as the likes of Sea The Stars and Dancing Brave.

Plenty saying poor ride by O Brien and great ride by Moore, Coolmore had been harping on about 10f being his best distance and he got beaten by a decent horse, not a great horse and certainly not a top class horse. In their two races there has been less than 2L between them, what to draw from that is Australia is not one of the best ever.

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You people keep going back to how strong this race was or that race was. Listen Nobody has access to a time machine. We can't bring back Ribot, Sea Bird or Nijinsky. all you can do is run against who shows up.

No we cant but just because you win a race against pacemakers and struggle to put Kingston Hill away (a donkey in your view) certainly doesnt put you in the same breath as the above namef.

hucklebuck

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Think people are disrespecting the winner saying how bad a ride the runner up got and how he'd reverse the tables. Does no one else thing Gatsby got a woeful ride the last day? Just look at Hughes giving Australia first run whilst he was in a pocket. Shocking

Spot on, forgot about the ride, think there was 2L in it at the end

curioser

Just a minor observation, to be fair to AOB, I think he said that Australia was the best horse he ever trained - he never suggested that the horse was the best in training

hucklebuck

curioser wrote: »

Just a minor observation, to be fair to AOB, I think he said that Australia was the best horse he ever trained - he never suggested that the horse was the best in training

Intriguing, please tell us more

Gringo180

hucklebuck wrote: »

To be fair to Ali in the opinion of a hell of a lot of people he was/is. Boxing is all about confidence, the horses dont hear Aidan and go, "I must be brilliant to be the best he has ever had"

Come off it man, you were positively creaming yourself about Australia and IIRC you had him in the same category as the likes of Sea The Stars and Dancing Brave.

Plenty saying poor ride by O Brien and great ride by Moore, Coolmore had been harping on about 10f being his best distance and he got beaten by a decent horse, not a great horse and certainly not a top class horse. In their two races there has been less than 2L between them, what to draw from that is Australia is not one of the best ever.

I only watched the replay of the race last night and was expecting a shocker of a ride by JOB but to be honest it wasn't that bad. I just think he was beaten by the better horse, who actually got a stinking ride in the Juddmonte, far far worse than what Australia got on Saturday.

Gringo180

curioser wrote: »

Just a minor observation, to be fair to AOB, I think he said that Australia was the best horse he ever trained - he never suggested that the horse was the best in training

He said the same about Camelot too, he talks complete bollocks to be honest, no way were these 2 horses as good as the likes of High Chapparal, Hawk WIng, Rock Of Gibraltar or Giants Causeway etc.

faoile@n

hucklebuck wrote: »

Intriguing, please tell us more

Aren't you the chap who thought anything over evens for Sea The Moon was value :eek:

How's that working out for ya?

curioser

hucklebuck wrote: »

Intriguing, please tell us more

No more to tell, just an observation, nothing more, nothing less

FIVE2_THREE

hucklebuck wrote: »

No we cant but just because you win a race against pacemakers and struggle to put Kingston Hill away (a donkey in your view) certainly doesnt put you in the same breath as the above namef.

You really are trying hard. Where have I ever called or insisted that Kingston Hill was a donkey ? I see nothing special about him. OK he won the Leger. but where does he go from here ? He won't beat Australia in the Champions stakes if he goes there and He would get smashed in the Arc if he goes there. He is a good horse is my Book. but not the superstar that many of you paint him to be.

hucklebuck

faoile@n wrote: »

Aren't you the chap who thought anything over evens for Sea The Moon was value :eek:

How's that working out for ya?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=esXJN_OTkmU

Because everyone can predict the future :eek:

hucklebuck

FIVE2_THREE wrote: »

You really are trying hard. Where have I ever called or insisted that Kingston Hill was a donkey ? I see nothing special about him. OK he won the Leger. but where does he go from here ? He won't beat Australia in the Champions stakes if he goes there and He would get smashed in the Arc if he goes there. He is a good horse is my Book. but not the superstar that many of you paint him to be.

Pretty sure you were slating him and Varian, can check later.

Nobody has said Kingston Hill is a great horse, indeed I believe I argued if Australia was the horse everyone was saying he was he should be going away from KH.

Peintre Celebre

Hucklebuck not trying to be funny but you say The Grey Gatsby ''certainly isn't top class''


What rating does he need to achieve to be considered top class? Considering he ran away with a French Derby in record time and even if you think he shouldn't have beaten Australia, the form works up in behind. Mukhadram, Trading Leather and Al Kazeem all ran to near their marks. TGG should get a rating of about 127, that is certainly top class



It appears Hughes was critical of himself after he rode the horse ''Hughesie (jockey Richard Hughes) said at York that Australia just got first run on him and on the day I don't think he would have beaten him but Hughesie thought he would have been a lot closer and given him a harder race.'

tryfix

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Hucklebuck not trying to be funny but you say The Grey Gatsby ''certainly isn't top class''


What rating does he need to achieve to be considered top class? Considering he ran away with a French Derby in record time and even if you think he shouldn't have beaten Australia, the form works up in behind. Mukhadram, Trading Leather and Al Kazeem all ran to near their marks. TGG should get a rating of about 127, that is certainly top class



It appears Hughes was critical of himself after he rode the horse ''Hughesie (jockey Richard Hughes) said at York that Australia just got first run on him and on the day I don't think he would have beaten him but Hughesie thought he would have been a lot closer and given him a harder race.'

TGG is top class, a Dante, a French Derby and an Irish Champion Stakes in one season is top class and very few horses every year make it to 126 or above, and TGG is now on a par with Rock Of Gibraltar 126, Giant's Causeway 126, Henrythenavigator 125, New Approach 126.

He probably doesn't deserve to be rated above Australia because of the 1lb overweight that Australia was carrying and the fact that Mukhadram got closer 6 1/2l here than in the Juddmonte 7 1/2l, but I see the RP ratings for their Juddmonte tussle have been revised upwards to put Australia ahead of Kingman.

Looking at the TGG's season I'm drawn back to the Craven Stakes where he was beaten well by my Guineas fancy Toormore, what a race, in third place was Postponed who now looks awesome and in 4th was a horse called Patentar who gave a 5l beating over 7f to 98 rated horses on his latest start.

What the fup happened to Toormore since? Toronado and Olympic Dream are another two Hannon stars that have nosedived.

Gringo180

tryfix wrote: »

TGG is top class, a Dante, a French Derby and an Irish Champion Stakes in one season is top class and very few horses every year make it to 126 or above, and TGG is now on a par with Rock Of Gibraltar 126, Giant's Causeway 126, Henrythenavigator 125, New Approach 126.

He probably doesn't deserve to be rated above Australia because of the 1lb overweight that Australia was carrying and the fact that Mukhadram got closer 6 1/2l here than in the Juddmonte 7 1/2l, but I see the RP ratings for their Juddmonte tussle have been revised upwards to put Australia ahead of Kingman.

Looking at the TGG's season I'm drawn back to the Craven Stakes where he was beaten well by my Guineas fancy Toormore, what a race, in third place was Postponed who now looks awesome and in 4th was a horse called Patentar who gave a 5l beating over 7f to 98 rated horses on his latest start.

What the fup happened to Toormore since? Toronado and Olympic Dream are another two Hannon stars that have nosedived.

Same happened to another of Hannons colts in Trumpet Major, he looked very good, granted maybe not as good as Toormore, but he totally went off the boil. Both colts by Arakan as well iirc.

hucklebuck

faoile@n wrote: »

Aren't you the chap who thought anything over evens for Sea The Moon was value :eek:

How's that working out for ya?

Captain Hindsight would 100/1 have been value, in hindsight?