most effective martial art/combat sport

Mellor

Bambi wrote: »

There's a sports version of silat, it looks a lot more fun than that, much scissors sweeps

I think I've seen something like that. Diving scissors from range.
I think the clip above pops up for me due to location.

gonko

Mellor wrote: »

You said it here;



Why are you getting defensive and going off on tangents about mma crusades? You've made claims, and you been questioned on them respectively.
If you best response is to dodge the question and sarcastically agree, it speaks volumes.

That quote I made a long time ago....And I was wrong. And I have explained this already. I said repeatedly every style has strong points, and that I like MMA. Perhaps it's best I don't comment any further on Silat. Seems to ruffle feathers. People ask what it's about, I tell them, and they don't believe it and get all aggro over it. It's one of the best systems out there, and that not just me, it's fairly accepted in most martial arts circles. The sports versions of Silat are VERY toned down. It does look cool, but I'd rather watch mma tbh

gonko

Mellor wrote: »

You said it here;



Why are you getting defensive and going off on tangents about mma crusades? You've made claims, and you been questioned on them respectively.
If you best response is to dodge the question and sarcastically agree, it speaks volumes.

Yes it does speak volumes. I will happily engage with anyone via pm and discuss martial arts. But there are too many trolls on the public board, that the discussion will quickly be warped into a dick measuring contest.

gonko

Mellor wrote: »

You said it here;



Why are you getting defensive and going off on tangents about mma crusades? You've made claims, and you been questioned on them respectively.
If you best response is to dodge the question and sarcastically agree, it speaks volumes.

Yes it does speak volumes. I will happily engage with anyone via pm and discuss martial arts. But there are too many trolls on the public board, that the discussion will quickly be warped into a dick measuring contest.

Doug Cartel

Gonko, stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll. Especially if you are going to wind them up saying your system is the best. I am kind of starting to think you might be trolling yourself.

Peetrik

gonko wrote: »

It's one of the best systems out there, and that not just me, it's fairly accepted in most martial arts circles.

Ah in fairness that isn't accepted anywhere, hence all the people calling you out on it.

gonko

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Gonko, stop calling anyone who disagrees with you a troll. Especially if you are going to wind them up saying your system is the best. I am kind of starting to think you might be trolling yourself.

When did I say my system was the best. Hahahahaha. Read the thread. I'm convinced your on here trolling too. Unreal. Where's the moderator when you need one.

Mellor

gonko wrote: »

That quote I made a long time ago....And I was wrong.

Fair enough. If you've admitted you were wrong, not much more to say.

Perhaps it's best I don't comment any further on Silat. Seems to ruffle feathers. People ask what it's about, I tell them, and they don't believe it and get all aggro over it.

I don't think anyone has a problem with Silat itself. It's certainly not a case of MMA or the highway. But the whole premises of deadly and instant attacks is met with resistance, and rightly so, as martial arts is full of people peddling nonsense - which results in people living in fantasy world.

Consider this. On regular basis, a Krav Maga thread descends into a KM verses everyone else argument. But I don't think I've ever seen a boxing verses Muay Thai argument. There's a reason for that.

It's one of the best systems out there, and that not just me, it's fairly accepted in most martial arts circles. The sports versions of Silat are VERY toned down. It does look cool, but I'd rather watch mma tbh

The things is, this is a martial arts circle. People each have experience in their own style, but they can recognise effect training when they see it. To the best if my knowledge, the people posting on this thread recently train in various styles. Many of us train/compete in more than one style. And are quite open borrowing elements from other styles.

gonko

Peetrik wrote: »

Ah in fairness that isn't accepted anywhere, hence all the people calling you out on it.

In fairness it proves you know nothing about martial arts. I'm assuming you don't train in any?

gonko

Mellor wrote: »

Fair enough. If you've admitted you were wrong, not much more to say.


I don't think anyone has a problem with Silat itself. It's certainly not a case of MMA or the highway. But the whole premises of deadly and instant attacks is met with resistance, and rightly so, as martial arts is full of people peddling nonsense - which results in people living in fantasy world.

Consider this. On regular basis, a Krav Maga thread descends into a KM verses everyone else argument. But I don't think I've ever seen a boxing verses Muay Thai argument. There's a reason for that.

The things is, this is a martial arts circle. People each have experience in their own style, but they can recognise effect training when they see it. To the best if my knowledge, the people posting on this thread recently train in various styles. Many of us train/compete in more than one style. And are quite open borrowing elements from other styles.

Exactly. I train boxing too alongside Silat. I look at the mma ground game, mix it up with Silat. Silat has a good ground set up too. No one styleis perfect, bbut Silat is a damn good system on the whole. It has got some dirty hits and blows but does that mean it will always triumph, not at all. What I said about the art stands. I have looked at different systems, there is no perfect one. Even MMA and KM have huge flaws in certain aspects. BUT I am talking from a raw system that on the whole has alot to offer and good variety of stand up striking and ground work, with a viscous streak, Silat kinda ticks those boxes. It's not for everyone. It's a damn shame some trolls got onto this thread and ruined it. This could have been an awesome thread for sharing information.

Silat has sticking, grappling, ground, breaks, we also have holds but tend to focus on the move inducing a break than just a hold. That's how we train it so hopefully how we would react in the street too.

Mellor

gonko wrote: »

Silat has sticking, grappling, ground, breaks, we also have holds but tend to focus on the move inducing a break than just a hold.

Do you have an example of one if these holds/break. I'm always looking to incorporate new submissions.

Most submissions will result a broken bone or going unconscious, rarely is a just a hold the end goal.

Doug Cartel

Mellor wrote: »

Do you have an example of one if these holds/break. I'm always looking to incorporate new submissions.

Most submissions will result a broken bone or going unconscious, rarely is a just a hold the end goal.

Sorry, but he won't be able to reply until Monday.

I asked him not to refer to people as trolls, and he ignored the request.

Peetrik

gonko wrote: »

In fairness it proves you know nothing about martial arts. I'm assuming you don't train in any?

I do Thai boxing. I train in Bridgestone Thai and I've had 17 fights

gonko wrote: »

It's a damn shame some trolls got onto this thread and ruined it.

I assume that's you calling me a troll again? The problem is not people trolling, it is a issue over a difference in perception over what is information and what is Walter Mitty fantasy. By my perspective, what could be a straightforward information thread on effect training has been cluttered up with people advocating semi-contact points systems or untried fantasy stuff for real life self defense.

All about perspective.

EDIT: Ah, just saw Dougs post now.

Doug Cartel

Peetrik wrote: »

I assume that's you calling me a troll again?

Can we drop this please?

gonko

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pxNLFpwYdw

There is a video of a defence based silat, very similar / identical to what I train in. I hope this answers some questions. I was banned from the forum by some moderator. Anyway, follow the link.

Doug Cartel

gonko wrote: »

I was banned from the forum by some moderator. Anyway, follow the link.

Honestly there isn't anything in that video that anyone here hasn't seen a thousand times before. A bunch of guys doing slow motion demonstrations of hypothetical stuff against a complaint partner.

So you are posting nothing new and on top of it you are picking a fight with me. Seriously, how do you see this playing out? What's your end-game here?

gonko

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Honestly there isn't anything in that video that anyone here hasn't seen a thousand times before. A bunch of guys doing slow motion demonstrations of hypothetical stuff against a complaint partner.

So you are posting nothing new and on top of it you are picking a fight with me. Seriously, how do you see this playing out? What's your end-game here?

So......you can DEMO a style effectively and show techniques against a non-compliant partner????

Or will it end up a mess? Bear in mind, it is a DEMO on the video, not a competition.

Doug Cartel

What questions is it supposed to answer?

gonko

I put up a video of Silat addressing previous requests as to what its like. All you have done is comment on how the partner is compliant and it is all hypothetical stuff. Let me tell you, EVERYTHING is hypothetical until it happens for real, if it does. And the video is a little demo as to what silat has on offer in terms of defence against such situations. The art does go deeper on the side of internal energy and animal spirits etc (too much to get into here), but the video is a quick snapshot of the basics.

If you have a specific gripe about the video or my reason for posting, i will happily address it.

Doug Cartel

gonko wrote: »

I put up a video of Silat addressing previous requests as to what its like.

You were asked to post an example of what you felt *good* Silat looks like, as the other poster didn't want to put down what you were doing based on the common perception of Silat, which may not be what you are doing. Based on what you have posted I expect his perception of Silat will not have changed.

Niall Keane

Niall Keane wrote: »

It can be... it depends on who's hands they are in..... and that is precisely the point!


Back to the OP and regarding combat sports alone, would Mike Tyson have trouble with an average Saturday night agressor? Would Saenchai? Would Muslim Salihov? Would Wandarlei Silva? But is every boxer as good as Tyson? every Muay Thai fighter as good as Saenchai? Every Sanda fighter as good as Salihov? Every MMA fighter as good as Silva?

Doubtful!! but there is a fair bet that "competitant" athletes in such combat sports are more than capable of stopping opposition inside the sport or outside it. As for which is best? We are talking tools for the job here. and rulesets. Sure a Sanda fighter has a lot more weapons than a boxer IN HIS SPORT, but personally, I'd prefer to deal with the typical amateur Sanda lad than Mike Tyson in his prime, and on the other hand I've sparred many successful amateur boxers back in the day who wouldn't last a round against some of the international sanda lads I fought. That's simply a personal opinion, born of my limited experience, all anyone can really offer. Do you really see the average MMA hobbiest taking out Saenchai regardless of ruleset?

NOW there are other "combat sports" too..... light contact, semi contsct, point fighting etc. that lack "impact" a key element to fighting effectively, and so range and angle are usually totally wrong, and so fighting for such athletes develops serious bad habits regarding full contact and becoming a game of tag etc.

I don't think you will find anyone who has actually walked the walk who will disagree?

And don't swallow the BS about Sport V Street, there are those of us who practice traditional martial arts and participate in full contact combat sports, one does not preclude the other, far from it combat sports are the best way to develop real skill in timing, angle and range, without which everything else falls apart. Its like the clip above says - "Competing helps us to know ourselves". Also be aware that most traditional styles were founded by successful "fighters" who won numerous "challenges matches", the archaic term for combat sport competition. Tai Chi Chuan for example is full of gob****es who shun combat sports, yet the man who made it famous as a style of Gung Fu was Yang Lu Chan, Yang "the invincible" a nickname earned on the Lei Tai in Beijing.

Again limited personal experience but I've never heard voiced a negative outlook towards competition from a traditional stylist who has actually competed. They have been in both hemispheres, seen the whole of the moon, for those who haven't there will always be a dark side!

to keep the perpetual debate running ....

here's the aforementioned: A few good "DEMOS" ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsjN5tQoof0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLSHY-oMyh4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IB2wtWrLbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYA1GU3u2KA

gonko

Doug Cartel wrote: »

You were asked to post an example of what you felt *good* Silat looks like, as the other poster didn't want to put down what you were doing based on the common perception of Silat, which may not be what you are doing. Based on what you have posted I expect his perception of Silat will not have changed.

So this in a roundabout way, it seems as though you are suggesting Pencak Silat as a fairly useless defence system? Or suggestive that the general perception that this is the case?

Doug Cartel

gonko wrote: »

So this in a roundabout way, it seems as though you are suggesting Pencak Silat as a fairly useless defence system? Or suggestive that the general perception that this is the case?

What I am suggesting is that you are not bringing anything new to the table.

Peetrik

gonko wrote: »

So this in a roundabout way, it seems as though you are suggesting Pencak Silat as a fairly useless defence system? Or suggestive that the general perception that this is the case?

What you've posted so far is absolutely useless for defending yourself. It will crumple like a wet paper bag as soon as someone seriously tries to hit you.

What is worrying though is that from you previous posts it looks as if you not only seem to think what you've posted is effective, but seem to think that it's so effective that you'd be able to handle an MMA fighter. This is seriously incorrect.

Doug Cartel

The Dog Brothers say that their Filipino Martial Arts curriculum is influenced by Bukti Negara Pentjak Silat (yes I know FMA and Silat aren't the same at all, but they don't seem to care) Their stuff looks a little like this:

Notice how there is only a small part where the guy receiving the technique is fully compliant? The rest of the time everything is much more messy.

Mellor

gonko wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pxNLFpwYdw

There is a video of a defence based silat, very similar / identical to what I train in. I hope this answers some questions. I was banned from the forum by some moderator. Anyway, follow the link.

Thanks for posting a video, it’s a lot easier to discuss if we are on the same page. However, the video does nothing to improve my perception of it as a fighting system.
It’s highly choreographed. Which doesn’t translate to the real world as the attacker prob won’t move or stay in the rehearsed position.
There’s nothing wrong with a demonstration, learning new techniques in training requires demo at a slow pace. But by “compliant partner” people are talking about the fact that the opponent is freezing with his arm in the air after missing the punch in order to facilitate the moves. This is totally unrealistic, nobody has ever throw a punch or acted like that in reality.
If he doesn’t do that, most of the choreography doesn’t work. The stuff that does work was the simple “slip the jab, hook to the body, trip”. This isn’t uniquely Silat. It’s basic boxing and grappling, basic MMA.

I’m not saying that to pull of those moves with speed, and accuracy doesn’t talk skill and lots of practise. But that’s all I consider them to be, practiced moves.
FWIW, (excluding the weapons) there wasn’t much in that video that wouldn’t be allowed in an MMA match, possibly all of it. I can’t see any of it working though, some basic striking and grappling would nullify a lot of it.

gonko wrote: »

So......you can DEMO a style effectively and show techniques against a non-compliant partner????

Or will it end up a mess? Bear in mind, it is a DEMO on the video, not a competition.

Of course you can. There’s a difference between a training partner that is passive as you do the technique and one that is actively helping you. As soon as the partner is the silat video, throws a proper punch, or stops standing still, most of the techniques don’t work.

gonko wrote: »

Let me tell you, EVERYTHING is hypothetical until it happens for real, if it does.

But everything isn’t hypothetical. Sparring with a partner isn’t hypothethetical, he is trying to attack you as much as you are trying to attack him.
Asking your partner to come at you with strikes while you work on takedowns isn’t hypothetical. He isn’t going to let you take him down, he is trying to hit you. The hits are at full speed.

If you have a specific gripe about the video or my reason for posting, i will happily address it.

I’ve no gripe with your reasons for posting. I asked you to post one.
I’ve touched on the issue with the techniques above. They, for the most part, won’t work.

cowzerp

gonko wrote: »

In fairness it proves you know nothing about martial arts. I'm assuming you don't train in any?

He doesn't train in fantasy martial arts that walter mitty types love

gonko wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pxNLFpwYdw

There is a video of a defence based silat, very similar / identical to what I train in. I hope this answers some questions. I was banned from the forum by some moderator. Anyway, follow the link.

LOL!

FTA69

gonko wrote: »

The art does go deeper on the side of animal spirits etc (too much to get into here).

What a load of ****.

Doug Cartel

FTA69 wrote: »

What a load of ****.

Easy now, this is getting offensive and not really addressing any point.

SVJKarate

gonko wrote: »

Let me tell you, EVERYTHING is hypothetical until it happens for real, if it does.

That's absolutely true. However there is a scale of realism between 0% and 90% where you can train. Nobody can legally train at 100% realism, and nothing is really 0% real, but many schools train their art closer to 20% than to 90%, and there are legitimate reasons for doing so. There is nothing wrong with doing "Boxercise" classes, because they serve a very real purpose. They do not, however teach students how to defend themselves against an attack in a terribly useful way, except that they may have the speed and fitness to run like hell.

Training nearer to the 90% realism (full contact, resisting, with rules, protective clothing & guards etc) serves very well to prepare for the shock / impact / adrenaline of a real fight, though it can also inhibit people from pushing themselves to develop better / more efficient technique. Focussing too much on the 'perfect technique' (form) can leave a student unprepared for the sheer brutality of an actual attack. My observation (and I do not pretend to have conducted a comprehensive study) is that people who take up and stay at full-contact training are generally of a fairly physically robust disposition, because that is what is needed to be successful in that type of environment. People who cannot or do not wish to acquire a physique like that may prefer a MA where there is less emphasis on hard contact during training, and they may stay training and even excel at semi-contact. The downside is that they are generally less prepared for the physicality of an actual attack.

A school which focusses on both the technical aspects of the striking & grappling arts (to improve form and efficiency) and spends a good deal of time training against non-compliant opponents (to improve resilience to assault / violence and test yourself under pressure) offers the best compromise between form and function, and probably best prepares students for the potential threat of having to defend themselves against an attack. This takes time, a great deal of time from the student, and few people have enough time to dedicate themselves to that sort of training while also coping with a job, a family, an illness, a relationship etc. As one ages the toll of such training can become higher.

Walter Mitty trains in Unagi ("Friends" Season 6) and believes he is a lethal weapon. It is also a fallacy to believe that you must either spend many hours a week in full-contact training or be completely unable to defend yourself. There is a scale of benefit and suitability between these extremes, and it serves none of us well to be snide about the chosen training of others. We should reserve our criticism only for the ill-conceived belief of how our training serves our ability to fight. What makes Ross Geller's encounter with Unagi funny is not that he trained (after all for a museum geek this was probably the only exercise he gets in the week) but rather that he believed in supernatural animal-spirit powers being conferred upon him. That's the stuff of comedy.

In truth no matter what your training you can be taken out with a sucker punch from the blindside, and whether you are Walter Mitty or John Joe Nevin you can only prepare yourself to reduce the probability of being killed or seriously injured. There is no invincible system. We should stop beating each other up (verbally) over the many MA out there and just sweat more.