most effective martial art/combat sport

mannequinhands

sorry if this has been up before but whats everyones opinion on this , just wondering what everyone is thinking on this

hidinginthebush

Depends on your definition of effective...
If you're a bouncer looking to control people without having to batter them and leave yourself open to a lawsuit, some art with a lot of locks like bjj. If you're looking to go around battering people, a striking art like muay Thai or boxing. If you just want to defend yourself, something like judo could be good. Don't forget that the best form of self defense could simply be pay attention to your surroundings and be good at sprinting away.
Also if you're looking at the sport side of things, tkd will be better than judo in a tkd competition, and so on.

Also keep in mind the threads usually turn into a "my dad can beat up your dad " sort of debate

CIARAN_BOYLE

club and coach are much more important that art or style imo

mannequinhands

well not to go round battering people but to be able to defend urself should you have to . Yeah hopefully it dosent turn into a slagging match but all the same fair points should be ok

agreed club and coach are very importatant

Mouthalmighty

any martial art that trains with a live fully resisting opponent BJJ, Wrestling MT MMA in general are all good. That weeds out the crap IMO. As an earlier poster said a good 100yard dash and being aware are very important. Basic cop on is mighty too.

In my limited experience any place that has a "Steven Seagal" knife defence course is pure crap. In 70% of stabbing cases the first stab is the fatal one compared to only 10% of the first shot from 9mm pistol.

Floodgates opened......

Dyr

Mouthalmighty wrote: »

In my limited experience any place that has a "Steven Seagal" knife defence course is pure crap. In 70% of stabbing cases the first stab is the fatal one compared to only 10% of the first shot from 9mm pistol.

Floodgates opened......

Do you have a source for those two statistics?

Peetrik

If you want to learn to fight then MMA is the best all rounder, absolutely no question. To say otherwise is basically just denial at this stage IMO.

Zen65

mannequinhands wrote: »

sorry if this has been up before . . . . .

This question has been brought up pretty much since the first ape picked up a stick and used it to club another ape.

"What type of stick do you think works best to beat another ape?"

Inevitably the response (in ape language) would have been "well this short, fat stick has always worked well for me, so I think it's the best". Then another ape would offer an elaboration by saying "well sure, short and fat is fine, but what if the rival ape has a very long stick? Or what it it's not an ape you're dealing with, but a snake? Anyway the alpha-male in my group swears by the importance of wrapping thorns around the tip of the stick for additional fighting power"

There is no answer to the question which will win agreement, because the question means so many different things to different people. I'm a karate black-belt with about 20 years of training behind me, capable of using my training pretty effectively in a fight, but I'm also relatively short with limited joint flexibility and only average muscle-tone (past my mid-life some years ago, so my muscle mass is not going to increase), and my disposition is sunny with almost no inclination to hit another living creature. Would I be better able to defend myself if I had trained in another art instead? Perhaps if I had simply spent more time in the gym and less time in restaurants? And despite all my training, would a taller, broader, more muscular weightlifter be able to pound me into the ground? If he did, would that mean that weightlifting was more effective than karate for self-defence?

However interesting the question, the answers in this forum rarely ever stray beyond a slight variation of "well this stick has served me well, so I believe it is best".

Peetrik

Zen65 wrote: »

However interesting the question, the answers in this forum rarely ever stray beyond a slight variation of "well this stick has served me well, so I believe it is best".

What if they allowed the same sized people bring whatever stick they liked to fight with and a particular stick more often than not won over the course of 20 or so years? Hypothetically of course.

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

What if they allowed the same sized people bring whatever stick they liked to fight with and a particular stick more often than not won over the course of 20 or so years? Hypothetically of course.

Ahh, that would be wonderful!

Some people's vision of utopia might not involve 20 years of fighting with sticks, but I for one would relish the idea of watching this and compiling the statistics.

Of course, 20 years later I might be too old to sign up to the champion's stick-fighting school. And there would be so much debate about apples and oranges even despite the people all being the same size "well the people in our village would not be allowed swing the stick that way, because in our system of stick-fighting those moves are outlawed, so they should not have been allowed in this test". In fact now that I think of it, if the question ever got answered surely it might put some MA styles out of business, result in mass unemployment for instructors, and ultimately lead to a welfare system whereby the successful good-stick instructors were forced to pay a new tax to subsidise the weekly allowances being paid to the unemployed bad-stick fight instructors.

Down with this sort of thing!

mannequinhands

Zen65 wrote: »

This question has been brought up pretty much since the first ape picked up a stick and used it to club another ape.

"What type of stick do you think works best to beat another ape?"

Inevitably the response (in ape language) would have been "well this short, fat stick has always worked well for me, so I think it's the best". Then another ape would offer an elaboration by saying "well sure, short and fat is fine, but what if the rival ape has a very long stick? Or what it it's not an ape you're dealing with, but a snake? Anyway the alpha-male in my group swears by the importance of wrapping thorns around the tip of the stick for additional fighting power"

There is no answer to the question which will win agreement, because the question means so many different things to different people. I'm a karate black-belt with about 20 years of training behind me, capable of using my training pretty effectively in a fight, but I'm also relatively short with limited joint flexibility and only average muscle-tone (past my mid-life some years ago, so my muscle mass is not going to increase), and my disposition is sunny with almost no inclination to hit another living creature. Would I be better able to defend myself if I had trained in another art instead? Perhaps if I had simply spent more time in the gym and less time in restaurants? And despite all my training, would a taller, broader, more muscular weightlifter be able to pound me into the ground? If he did, would that mean that weightlifting was more effective than karate for self-defence?

However interesting the question, the answers in this forum rarely ever stray beyond a slight variation of "well this stick has served me well, so I believe it is best".

ha that's actually a pretty good answer

mannequinhands

Mouthalmighty wrote: »

any martial art that trains with a live fully resisting opponent BJJ, Wrestling MT MMA in general are all good. That weeds out the crap IMO. As an earlier poster said a good 100yard dash and being aware are very important. Basic cop on is mighty too.

In my limited experience any place that has a "Steven Seagal" knife defence course is pure crap. In 70% of stabbing cases the first stab is the fatal one compared to only 10% of the first shot from 9mm pistol.

Floodgates opened......

ive always thought bjj and wrestling as much as I do like to watch them don't really account for the kick in the balls sort of stuff plus the danger's of grappling somebody when they could have weapon of some sort concealed.

Niall Keane

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2K_aHCJbxN0

pearsquasher

Trained with some anti-terrorist guys recently in Spain at a Bujinkan dojo... they seem to think what we do is highly effective and a necessary additional skill set to their own professional training...Bujinkan being weapons and non-rule based. Met a lot of other LEO/military types who use it too AND the mental health service in Catalunya uses it as its main source of control techniques for dealing with on-the-job assault..

..works for me.

Dyr

Peetrik wrote: »

What if they allowed the same sized people bring whatever stick they liked to fight with and a particular stick more often than not won over the course of 20 or so years? Hypothetically of course.

It would probably lead people to think that their stick is a match for sword...

Peetrik

Zen65 wrote: »

In fact now that I think of it, if the question ever got answered surely it might put some MA styles out of business

Surprisingly not, people still go to McDonalds to order the salad and a diet coke. They'll readily kid themselves as it's what they wanted to do anyway.

Bambi wrote: »

It would probably lead people to think that their stick is a match for sword...

Swords/weapons... http://youtu.be/EBpuLlw4Xjs?t=4m33s

Niall Keane

Bambi wrote: »

It would probably lead people to think that their stick is a match for sword...

It can be... it depends on who's hands they are in..... and that is precisely the point!


Back to the OP and regarding combat sports alone, would Mike Tyson have trouble with an average Saturday night agressor? Would Saenchai? Would Muslim Salihov? Would Wandarlei Silva? But is every boxer as good as Tyson? every Muay Thai fighter as good as Saenchai? Every Sanda fighter as good as Salihov? Every MMA fighter as good as Silva?

Doubtful!! but there is a fair bet that "competitant" athletes in such combat sports are more than capable of stopping opposition inside the sport or outside it. As for which is best? We are talking tools for the job here. and rulesets. Sure a Sanda fighter has a lot more weapons than a boxer IN HIS SPORT, but personally, I'd prefer to deal with the typical amateur Sanda lad than Mike Tyson in his prime, and on the other hand I've sparred many successful amateur boxers back in the day who wouldn't last a round against some of the international sanda lads I fought. That's simply a personal opinion, born of my limited experience, all anyone can really offer. Do you really see the average MMA hobbiest taking out Saenchai regardless of ruleset?

NOW there are other "combat sports" too..... light contact, semi contsct, point fighting etc. that lack "impact" a key element to fighting effectively, and so range and angle are usually totally wrong, and so fighting for such athletes develops serious bad habits regarding full contact and becoming a game of tag etc.

I don't think you will find anyone who has actually walked the walk who will disagree?

And don't swallow the BS about Sport V Street, there are those of us who practice traditional martial arts and participate in full contact combat sports, one does not preclude the other, far from it combat sports are the best way to develop real skill in timing, angle and range, without which everything else falls apart. Its like the clip above says - "Competing helps us to know ourselves". Also be aware that most traditional styles were founded by successful "fighters" who won numerous "challenges matches", the archaic term for combat sport competition. Tai Chi Chuan for example is full of gob****es who shun combat sports, yet the man who made it famous as a style of Gung Fu was Yang Lu Chan, Yang "the invincible" a nickname earned on the Lei Tai in Beijing.

Again limited personal experience but I've never heard voiced a negative outlook towards competition from a traditional stylist who has actually competed. They have been in both hemispheres, seen the whole of the moon, for those who haven't there will always be a dark side!

mannequinhands

yea I don't really go for the street vs sport thing a trained fighter with experience will have his technique better mastered and will be able to stay cool when under pressure.

Mouthalmighty

Bambi wrote: »

Do you have a source for those two statistics?

No source, read them in a paper over in the states a couple of years back they just stuck with me .

Dyr

Mouthalmighty wrote: »

No source, read them in a paper over in the states a couple of years back they just stuck with me .

Grand, I read the exact opposite regarding stab wounds, the last ones inflicted were usually fatal as the victim was no longer resisting by then

pearsquasher

In 70% of stabbing cases the first stab is the fatal one

I'd still rather not be in the other 30% as any type of cut is gonna suck big time.

I also have encountered a hidden blade attack on me personally before (drugged up acquaintance with emotional issues who tried hitting first )

For any professional LEO/Mental Health*/Prison Officer types..dealing with potential blade use is of major importance and so a martial art that integrates that into everything it does is worth looking at.

Our fundamental baseline is "There may be a weapon on the guy".

That's what the professionals have to consider. That's what takes an MA out of the sport context. It changes everything - as does "there may be accomplices" or "I mustn't injure them"*

Niall Keane

I carry scars from blade attacks, and I was a sport fighter, I've been in both worlds. I admit my outlook is extremely limited considering the vastness of human experience, but it is still a lot more than most martial artists and I still have to hear those with similar sport and street experience, like my Sifu Dan Docherty 1980 SE Asian Open Wight Champ and 10 years in the HK Vice Squad, come out and disparage the skills of a sport fighter, or consider those without such experience on par with those who have it. BUT... as I admitted my experience as a single human being is necessarily limited.

End of the day, certainly there are particular things one might do in some sport contexts one should never do in self defence, but I stand by what I said. everything requires excellent, not just works on compliant training partner , but excellent skill in angle range and timing against a resistant opponent to be effective. Luck can play a part for sure, hell one has to be unlucky in a way to face serious situations, and luck may carry one through successfully, but the mindful application of focused purposeful and adaptable application, knowing one's limits and potential of powerful movement and that of the opponent in the immediacy of combat is best tested and acquired through combat sports.

Heavy sparring in a way is a combat sport, but even this has its limits, classes are usually small in martial arts and people quickly learn the habits of their training partners, and so whole crucial areas of defence can be omitted in time, down to habit. Combat Sport helps avoid this, not just for the athlete but for his whole school who benefit from his experience!

In a way that is why since General Qi Jiguang and right up to today’s MMA, martial arts keep reinventing the wheel and correcting its degradation into flowery methods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Jiguang#Books_by_Qi_Jiguang

pearsquasher

Time for another read of www.nononsenseselfdefense.com

and I just read Rory Millers Meditations on Violence recently and sports combats doesn't come into his training at all. His background is koryu jujutsu (essentially what bujinkan is) and he's got loads of actual "combat" experience too. His site http://www.chirontraining.com/

Mellor

mannequinhands wrote: »

ive always thought bjj and wrestling as much as I do like to watch them don't really account for the kick in the balls sort of stuff plus the danger's of grappling somebody when they could have weapon of some sort concealed.

Boxing with somebody who pulls a knife would likely be just as dangerous tbh.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Back to the OP and regarding combat sports alone, would Mike Tyson have trouble with an average Saturday night agressor? Would Saenchai? Would Muslim Salihov? Would Wandarlei Silva? But is every boxer as good as Tyson? every Muay Thai fighter as good as Saenchai? Every Sanda fighter as good as Salihov? Every MMA fighter as good as Silva?

.... Do you really see the average MMA hobbiest taking out Saenchai regardless of ruleset?

None of those guys would have an issue defending themselves. And I'd definitely rather fight the hobbyist than Saenchai. But that talking about individuals (extremely gifted ones at that), not styles.

Lets say, in the interest of all things being equal, two 20 year old twins brothers wants to have a fight to see who was the best. Limited rules, small gloves/wraps/pads, in an open flat area.
They played the same sports growing up, and each has no MA training. They agree to train for 6 months to prepare.

How should he train for this fight?


Personally, I think any training that doesn't include the following is inferior;
(note inferior, doesn't mean ineffective)

• Some form of striking
• Grappling and Submission attacks
• Sparring
• With fully resisting training partners

There are many ways to achieve that. Be it a compete package like MMA, Sambo or Sanda. Or combining two elements to cover all area, like separate muay thai and BJJ.

pearsquasher

But isn't MMA pretty much " combining two elements (<<or more>>) to cover all area, like separate muay thai and BJJ."

Lets say, in the interest of all things being equal, two 20 year old twins brothers wants to have a fight to see who was the best. Limited rules, small gloves/wraps/pads, in an open flat area.
They played the same sports growing up, and each has no MA training. They agree to train for 6 months to prepare.

How should he train for this fight?

Twin 1 spends half his time watching what Twin 2 is doing.... then spends the other half of the time practicing to "not fight twin 1's fight".
So if twin 1 concentrates on judo... study his ability and find a hole in it and train to exploit that.


Thats what a criminal would do.... and they have a really vested interest in "winning" without being fair.

All of this sneaky stuff matters more in actual assault vs head-to-head "monkey dancing".....

My answer's a bit facetious a given the match you're talilng about but my whole point is that assault lies outside the realm of all-things-being-equal matches. The odds are nearly always stacked to some degree.......

Peetrik

pearsquasher wrote: »

But isn't MMA pretty much " combining two elements (<<or more>>) to cover all area, like separate muay thai and BJJ."

Maybe back in 1995, nowadays, definitely not.

pearsquasher wrote: »

Twin 1 spends half his time watching what Twin 2 is doing.... then spends the other half of the time practicing to "not fight twin 1's fight".
So if twin 1 concentrates on judo... study his ability and find a hole in it and train to exploit that.

You can't be serious here. Watching someone throw leg kicks and thinking to yourself;

"Easy, I'll just block his leg kicks"

...and actually blocking leg kicks are worlds apart. Learning someones timing on the fly and adjusting to their various change of tactics are something that you can't learn just by watching them. You can't learn a few 'anti grappling' moves and expect to beat someone spends all their time training grappling.

pearsquasher wrote: »

my whole point is that assault lies outside the realm of all-things-being-equal matches. The odds are nearly always stacked to some degree.......

If you can't beat someone who is the same size as you with even odds how can you expect to beat someone bigger than you when the odds are against you?

pearsquasher

Peetrik wrote: »

Maybe back in 1995, nowadays, definitely not.

So MMA is its own style now (shouldn't they drop the "mixed" :P)... gotcha.

You can't be serious here. Watching someone throw leg kicks and thinking to yourself;

"Easy, I'll just block his leg kicks"

...and actually blocking leg kicks are worlds apart. Learning someones timing on the fly and adjusting to their various change of tactics are something that you can't learn just by watching them. You can't learn a few 'anti grappling' moves and expect to beat someone spends all their time training grappling.

As I said i was being a tad over-the-top to make a point. I also said as well as watching, twin 2 practices the techniques to exploit the weaknesses he sees. I'm assuming a coach is involved to guide him... unless he's ina bamboo forest using the trees

If you can't beat someone who is the same size as you with even odds how can you expect to beat someone bigger than you when the odds are against you?

Because now that the odds are no longer even you play the stacking-the-odds-in-my-favour game. THATS what the professionals do (use a weapons, run away, eye-squish, not-worry-about-death-if-the-circumstances-warrant-it, have back-up.... all the stuff the all-odds-are-even folks DON'T do)..

Peetrik

pearsquasher wrote: »

Because now that the odds are no longer even you play the stacking-the-odds-in-my-favour game. THATS what the professionals do (use a weapons, run away, eye-squish, not-worry-about-death-if-the-circumstances-warrant-it, have back-up.... all the stuff the all-odds-are-even folks DON'T do)..

Ah pearsquasher I'm disappointed, we've both been posting here for awhile, the SD 'no rulez on da streets' debate has been put to bed a long time ago. I'm not going into it all but just to address your points..

1. "eye-squishing", kick to the balls, finger breaks etc etc. You don't actually practice it full force against a resisting opponent. Therefore you don't know it... you just know of it, same as any combat sports guy.

2. The combat sports guy is equally able to ignore any rules outside of sports. It's a moot point.

3. As Niall pointed out above "combat sports are the best way to develop real skill in timing, angle and range, without which everything else falls apart".

Plus the shítload of other reasons that have been pointed out over the multiple threads concerning this debate.

Mellor

pearsquasher wrote: »

So MMA is its own style now (shouldn't they drop the "mixed" :P)... gotcha.

It clearly is it's own style, nothing is trained in isolation. I'm a bit surprised that this is even up for debate.
Why would they dropped the word mixed? Calling it "martial arts" would make so sense.

As for the twins, you just said "beat the other guy style". You never said how to do that.
The other guy is training MMA, now what?
You can't find out how he trains, now what?

pearsquasher

Why would they dropped the word mixed? Calling it "martial arts" would make so sense.

Friday humor...shoulda added :cool:

You never said how to do that.

I did.... you study his training especially if its MMA, how he does against his sparring partners.. and you develop a strategy that exploits the holes in his methods. I'm just going on what all combat sports folks do... boxers, judoka etc..or do they go in blind every time "just to make it fair"?

The other guy is training MMA, now what?

Same advice.....and train MMA and add/remove the things your study of the opponent suggests

You can't find out how he trains, now what?

Ah....well then thing seem even don't they - nice and sanitized where it becomes all about individual skill, hard training, the right coach, no injuries on the day, luck, self confidence etc....may the best twin win and not worry at all about long lasting emotional damage as its all fair and dandy :rolleyes:

Niall Keane

Just to add, as I have already mentioned Tyson.... And there seems to still exist the fallacy that combat sport athletes will engage in self defence in accordance with their combat sport rules....

From recollection even a ref, a ring, and Queensbury rules didn't stop Tyson biting someone's ear off? Kinda kills that whole argument a bit eh?
Something to consider?


On a personal level if someone broke into my home and therefore threatened my family and expected me to act within sanda rules .... Well.... That would be entertaining!!!