most effective martial art/combat sport

EunanMac

Target shooting

Niall Keane

And if twins were to fight the only way one would overcome the style of another is to train with a coach that could prepare
Him and this would require a combat sport coach. Ie experienced eyes. It is not as simple as he wrestles so i'll box...

Let me put it this s way...

In sanda (and I'm sure we are not alone) international athletes have this team of professionals behind them...

Let's take some Dutch athletes I know....

Their main managing coach is vice president of ewuf, hoosts mentor according to his autobiography, and a personal friend - Henk Vursheur.

Now....

A team of university qualified sport psychologists and stratigests meet with the athlete and personal coach. Strengths and weaknesses assessed and also of opponents in weight class.

They go away and develop a solution.

Solution is tried with athlete...

He has dots placed on him and is recorded through performance of technique

This in analysed by the Dutch Olympic specialist sports scientists .

Every aspect of movement is analysed -

The whole Olympic team (coaches etc. From all disciplines are assembled and consulted) are involved.

A tailored sports science training programme is developed to make nerves and muscle optimally efficient and maximally effective for the tasks required

This is the application of Olympic standard sport science, a lot of it highly secret to maximise the potential of an athlete.

What am I saying?

Suggesting a "we don't compete, we keep it real, there's no refs on da stretz" outfit is anywhere close to the professionalism and scientific approach of elite combat sports is ludicrous !

Its like comparing a supercar to a lada. It's not even the same universe!

But we all know this deep down, no one can look at Tyson training his peekaboo style and consider Ross from friends with his oonagi karate on par!

And it brushes off...

The proficiency of world class athletes affects their sparing partners and gyms even their gyms opponents even at lower levels as skill rubs off - raising everyone's level.

And as for the deluded well that's infectious too!

Dyr

Niall Keane wrote: »

Just to add, as I have already mentioned Tyson.... And there seems to still exist the fallacy that combat sport athletes will engage in self defence in accordance with their combat sport rules....

From recollection even a ref, a ring, and Queensbury rules didn't stop Tyson biting someone's ear off? Kinda kills that whole argument a bit eh?
Something to consider?

Emm...Tyson broke his own hand with a single punch in a street fight

I've like the idea that people will start successfully improvising under immense pressure rather than just reverting to what they know best. Its comforting to know there's optimists out there.

Peetrik

Bambi wrote: »

I've like the idea that people will start successfully improvising under immense pressure rather than just reverting to what they know best.

Do you reckon you could take Tyson using an improvised weapon such as an umbrella or snooker ball in a sock there Bambi?

Dyr

Peetrik wrote: »

Do you reckon you could take Tyson using an improvised weapon such as an umbrella or snooker ball in a sock there Bambi?

How about i just hit him in the back of the head with a lump hammer? Would that count

Peetrik

Bambi wrote: »

How about i just hit him in the back of the head with a lump hammer? Would that count

Does that count as improvised? A lump hammer sounds like it could be "any other article whatsoever made or adapted for use for causing injury to or incapacitating a person".

Dave Joyce

Without a doubt, combat sports training is an extremely effective training method for improving your range, timing etc but is it the be all, end all.......like fuvk but it IS an advantage to have trained/sparred/competed in combat sports to improve your skill sets. However, on the other side of the coin there are combat sports fighters who DON'T believe in sparring like Joe Calzage etc but one which I personally won't agree with.

However, in the "Twins" example the scenario portrayed was one of a combat sports fight where the whole mindset is geared towards a combat sports fight and that mindset is what can be extremely dangerous.

Just as much as those who espouse the "Alive"/non resisting partner in their training, I would equally espouse the importance of mindset, along with anything you don't practice/train/rep you won't use and even if you attempted the skill level would be poor to say the least

Precious flower

What do people here think of Shotokan Karate? They have it as a club in the university I'm in and I was thinking of joining (the other martial art they have is Taekwondo) but I preferred the look of Shotokan Karate. Thanks!:)

Really wish I could do Kali or Eskrima!

CIARAN_BOYLE

Precious flower wrote: »

What do people here think of Shotokan Karate? They have it as a club in the university I'm in and I was thinking of joining (the other martial art they have is Taekwondo) but I preferred the look of Shotokan Karate. Thanks!:)

Really wish I could do Kali or Eskrima!

As per my earlier post its all about club and coach rather than the art. That said I do shotokan myself and there is a lot of good stuff there if thought well.

What university? Between me and svjkarate we should be able to talk in depth about the clubs in the dublin colleges and I would be familiar outside dublin as well.

Peetrik

Precious flower wrote: »

What do people here think of Shotokan Karate?

Depends very much on what you're looking for. A fun, traditional sport where you can get in shape and meet people or are you looking to learn how to fight?

Dyr

Precious flower wrote: »

Really wish I could do Kali or Eskrima!

Depends where you're based really

Precious flower

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

As per my earlier post its all about club and coach rather than the art. That said I do shotokan myself and there is a lot of good stuff there if thought well.

What university? Between me and svjkarate we should be able to talk in depth about the clubs in the dublin colleges and I would be familiar outside dublin as well.

Yeah, you're right the teacher and atmosphere of the club is really important! University of Limerick!

Depends very much on what you're looking for. A fun, traditional sport where you can get in shape and meet people or are you looking to learn how to fight?

Learn to fight really as well as for fitness reasons (nice to fit some exercise in to college life). I do Krav Maga at the moment too, but I wanted to check out other martial arts as well as I realise all have their downsides and benefits and the ones they do in UL are boxing, Krav Maga, Taekwondo and Shotokan.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Precious flower wrote: »

Yeah, you're right the teacher and atmosphere of the club is really important! University of Limerick!

My opinion from UL Shotokan Karate Club from meeting them at intervarsity type events.

Good social scene
Good fitness
Good sport karate
Not bad self defence

Zen65

Precious flower wrote: »

What do people here think of Shotokan Karate? They have it as a club in the university I'm in and I was thinking of joining . . . . .

Shotokan karate is a traditional fighting art, which was described by one of its founders Anko Itosu as being an art intended for fighting off a number of 'ruffian' types and that it was not intended as an art for serious one-to-one combat against a trained opponent.

That might seem like a strange comment, but it is a reflection of the fact that the art has limitations in its scope, specifically that there is only limited grappling or groundfighting in its syllabus. Shotokan focuses on strikes (punches, kicks & open-hand strikes including close-range elbow & knee strikes). The close-range techniques including the limited grappling techniques are primarily taught via kata, but a good instructor will include drills based on the kata which allows for some training in self-defence / close-range techniques including throws and locks.

It is the art I have trained in for almost 20 years, and while I have to confess that there are huge variations in how it is taught in different schools, it is a very powerful form of fighting when taught correctly. I have only very limited knowledge of the UL club but those few students I have met from the club have a high standard of karate. If Brendan O'Dowd is still teaching there then you can be sure of good instruction.

Peetrik

Precious flower wrote: »

Learn to fight really as well as for fitness reasons

If you want to learn to fight then of the styles you listed as available, Boxing is by far your best option. Huge gap between Boxing and any of the others listed.

hurpederp

Hi Precious flower,

If you are looking to learn to fight, then give UL Boxing Club a visit. There's very arts that will make you quite as effective as boxing.

If you are able to travel just a small bit outside the university, then Limerick at large offers a lot of martial arts. There is an MMA club, a Judo Club, a BJJ club, Kyukoshin Karate, Muay Thai, a different Kickboxing club.

I'm in the BJJ club, am I allowed to stereotype a wee bit and say you are a woman based on the username ? We are just a 304 bus journey away into the centre of town and as well as a full schedule of classes, we have a womens only class that could serve as a nice soft introduction. Check out http://limerickbjjacademy.com/ .

For whats near UL :
I'll list a few clubs that might interest you. You want self defense and fitness, well MMA and Judo will get you fit and you will gain legitimate, useful and applicable self defense skills. After all, who better to show you how to defend yourself against someone hitting or grabbing you, than people who compete against skilled hitters and grabbers ?

There are two MMA clubs, Sharkbait MMA and Pankration Academy, located near enough to UL. Their respective websites are : http://www.pankrationkickboxingacademy.com/ and for Sharkbait : https://www.facebook.com/sharkbait.mma.9 .

There is also judo, run by excellent black belt James (Jim) Bourke . They train in the same facilities as Sharkbait MMA, so you could check those two out with the same visit. Link to that page is : https://www.facebook.com/groups/LimerickJudo/?fref=ts

If you want more details on any of these clubs, PM me for info. I'm a UL student too btw

Doug Cartel

Just as a mod-note - there's no problem with you posting club details publicly if you want to. The only problem is if you do nothing but post links to your own club and never take part in any discussion. If it's just something that comes up in conversation you can post away. The only issue is that you might be blocked from posting a direct link if you are below a certain post count, but the mods on this forum don't have any control over that.

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

If you want to learn to fight then of the styles you listed as available, Boxing is by far your best option. Huge gap between Boxing and any of the others listed.

A well-trained, conditioned boxer is damned hard to beat in a fight, I can't argue with that logic.

But if we allow for the possibility that Precious Flower may in fact be a woman unaccustomed to using her fists in a fight, then the use of ungloved hands in self-defence may be an issue for her. Rightly so, and I've seen more than one tough guy forget he was not wearing gloves when lashing out, then quickly regret his actions.

Karate, and other arts also, teach striking methods which do not require you to make a fist nor to wear a glove. In that regard, those arts may be more suited to Precious Flower than boxing.

Peetrik

Why would them being a man or a woman make a blind bit of difference?? Effective training is effective training.

If they are unaccustomed to using their fists they are probably unaccustomed to using their feet too. The only way to get used to it is training.

Zen65

Peetrik wrote: »

Why would them being a man or a woman make a blind bit of difference?? Effective training is effective training.

Actually what I said was "that Precious Flower may in fact be a woman unaccustomed to using her fists in a fight" which is not the same as saying "may in fact be a woman". Although if you've met a lot of college women you'd notice that they typically have relatively small hands, and small bones. Those small bones break easier than larger, male bones. That's a generalisation, but it is based on the norms of the men and women in society.

Also as she's asking about a university club, we can deduce that she's likely to be taking up recreational training (because university students who take up a MA will almost always train only at a recreational level) so the 'effective training' that somebody who takes up boxing in a gym may undergo will not be a feature of her training in UL.

If they are unaccustomed to using their fists they are probably unaccustomed to using their feet too.

True, but the bones of the elbow, wrist and ball of the foot are less breakable than the foreknuckles of the hand. Using the elbow eliminates the danger of spraining the wrist through incorrect alignment of the punch, and while you can sprain the ankle with a bad kick it is more rugged than the wrist.

So I'm not slagging off boxing (I would not dare!) but I am looking at the posts for the available evidence before offering advice.

Peetrik

Zen65 wrote: »

Actually what I said was "that Precious Flower may in fact be a woman unaccustomed to using her fists in a fight" which is not the same as saying "may in fact be a woman".

Ok, not sure why you'd mention "woman" in that case

Zen65 wrote: »

Also as she's asking about a university club, we can deduce that she's likely to be taking up recreational training

Yeah quite likely. Although I'm very much of the opinion that the speed that someone becomes competent in boxing is much quicker than the other styles listed just due its simplicity.


You're preaching to the choir about elbows and knees, but my recommendation comes down to two major factors for me.

1. Consistency with the approach to training. Boxing training, for the most part follows a fairly reliable format.

2. Evolution of the style. Much like other styles, people interpret the various components and try to make them more effective, but... with boxing, it gets tested against other athletes in peak physical condition with big money at stake, which is an excellent filter. Modern boxing looks very different now than it did 60 years ago. A lot of more traditional styles on the other hand...



Just my opinion

FTA69

Zen65 wrote: »

the 'effective training' that somebody who takes up boxing in a gym may undergo will not be a feature of her training in UL.
.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the intervarsities at all, I trained in UCC and the competition was fairly demanding.

Precious flower

hurpederp wrote: »

Hi Precious flower,

If you are looking to learn to fight, then give UL Boxing Club a visit. There's very arts that will make you quite as effective as boxing.

If you are able to travel just a small bit outside the university, then Limerick at large offers a lot of martial arts. There is an MMA club, a Judo Club, a BJJ club, Kyukoshin Karate, Muay Thai, a different Kickboxing club.

I'm in the BJJ club, am I allowed to stereotype a wee bit and say you are a woman based on the username ? We are just a 304 bus journey away into the centre of town and as well as a full schedule of classes, we have a womens only class that could serve as a nice soft introduction. Check out http://limerickbjjacademy.com/ .

For whats near UL :
I'll list a few clubs that might interest you. You want self defense and fitness, well MMA and Judo will get you fit and you will gain legitimate, useful and applicable self defense skills. After all, who better to show you how to defend yourself against someone hitting or grabbing you, than people who compete against skilled hitters and grabbers ?

There are two MMA clubs, Sharkbait MMA and Pankration Academy, located near enough to UL. Their respective websites are : http://www.pankrationkickboxingacademy.com/ and for Sharkbait : https://www.facebook.com/sharkbait.mma.9 .

There is also judo, run by excellent black belt James (Jim) Bourke . They train in the same facilities as Sharkbait MMA, so you could check those two out with the same visit. Link to that page is : https://www.facebook.com/groups/LimerickJudo/?fref=ts

If you want more details on any of these clubs, PM me for info. I'm a UL student too btw

Apologies for the late reply! Thank you for the detailed info, I am indeed a women (not hard to guess huh?) My classes at the moment in UL are early starts and late finishes at the moment (I commute daily from Clare) so going out of UL would not be so convenient, but I will keep it in mine for the future thanks for letting me know! I was thinking of joining the boxing but I suppose I thought it would be all guys! I've done kick boxing in the past and do Krav Maga as well and there's a fair bit of sparring in that class:)

Zen65 wrote: »

A well-trained, conditioned boxer is damned hard to beat in a fight, I can't argue with that logic.

But if we allow for the possibility that Precious Flower may in fact be a woman unaccustomed to using her fists in a fight, then the use of ungloved hands in self-defence may be an issue for her. Rightly so, and I've seen more than one tough guy forget he was not wearing gloves when lashing out, then quickly regret his actions.

Karate, and other arts also, teach striking methods which do not require you to make a fist nor to wear a glove. In that regard, those arts may be more suited to Precious Flower than boxing.

I've done some kickboxing and do Krav Maga (we spar a lot in the class) but for boxing would they not be used to sparring with gloves as well? I'm sparred with gloves and light sparring with just handwraps. My dad was saying to me that he thought a person trained in Karate would be able to defeat a boxer but I guess you'd reach a high skill of boxing faster than a person doing Karate. I went to the class anyway and thought it was good, Brendan O'Dowd is still teaching it though he wasn't in for that class! I suppose the stance and punching was a bit odd to me as I'm used to punching like a boxer.:) But I found myself picking up the basics in no time.

Peetrik wrote: »

If you want to learn to fight then of the styles you listed as available, Boxing is by far your best option. Huge gap between Boxing and any of the others listed.

I realise boxing is more a 'basic' form of fighting (I don't mean that in a bad way), but would Judo or Taekwondo or Karate no beat that easily, or would boxing be the best for street fighting? I enjoying kick boxing more than boxing as I like using my legs!:P There's a club where I'm from but it's mainly that the clubs in UL are ten euro for the whole year, not that I'm a cheapskate or anything but the kick boxing at home would be 20 a week for two classes a week which is very good but really since I'm not working I can't afford it and you'd want to be going twice a week to really dedicate yourself.

Zen65

Precious flower wrote: »

My dad was saying to me that he thought a person trained in Karate would be able to defeat a boxer but I guess you'd reach a high skill of boxing faster than a person doing Karate.

Style 'X' does not beat style 'Y'.

People beat people.

A person trained in karate would have extra weapons (kicks, knees, elbows etc) but might not have the speed, fluidity or judgement to take out a boxer. It's about what suits you, and how well you train and how well your club trains you. Physical advantage plays a huge role too.

I'd suggest you just try a MA that you enjoy and stick with it a while.

Zen65

Precious flower wrote: »

I've done some kickboxing and do Krav Maga (we spar a lot in the class) but for boxing would they not be used to sparring with gloves as well?

My point was that karateka train to strike with bare fists, which is all you'll have in self-defence situations. Training with gloves (which is useful in its own right) can hide poor fist technique and leave you vulnerable to hand injuries in self-defence situations.

OnTheCouch

Peetrik wrote: »

If you want to learn to fight then of the styles you listed as available, Boxing is by far your best option. Huge gap between Boxing and any of the others listed.

Remember reading the famous martial artist and bouncer Geoff Thompson's autobiography and this question was put to him at some stage, given he had been in all kinds of different fight situations and studied countless means of combat.

He made it very clear that boxing was by far the best method, unless the fight degenerated into a grappling situation where the boxer's training would be rendered useless.

This was generally down to a few key points. Firstly street fights generally don't have sufficient distance between the protagonists to obtain maximum efficiency with a kick, so punching is greatly preferred. Secondly kicking saps both energy and mobility and is generally not as practical in a live situation as a good punch. Finally, all good boxers are trained to aim for a KO, which is far easier to do with a punch than a kick.

So perhaps not a conclusive answer, but he certainly convinced me!

Peetrik

Precious flower wrote: »

I realise boxing is more a 'basic' form of fighting (I don't mean that in a bad way), but would Judo or Taekwondo or Karate no beat that easily, or would boxing be the best for street fighting?

As far as striking goes, I'd put my money on the boxer over the Karate, Taekwondo and Krav Maga guy every single time.

Zen is right about needing to enjoy it though, none of that is any use to you if you don't like it enough to stick with it so if you can, try them all and go with the one you enjoy the most.

Mellor

Zen65 wrote: »

Although if you've met a lot of college women you'd notice that they typically have relatively small hands, and small bones. Those small bones break easier than larger, male bones.

That would be true if men and women punched with the same force. But they obviously don't, in general. I'd suspect that a guy would break his hand easier due to hitter harder.

hurpederp

Zen65 wrote: »

Style 'X' does not beat style 'Y'.

People beat people.

A person trained in karate would have extra weapons (kicks, knees, elbows etc) but might not have the speed, fluidity or judgement to take out a boxer. It's about what suits you, and how well you train and how well your club trains you. Physical advantage plays a huge role too.

I'd suggest you just try a MA that you enjoy and stick with it a while.

Can I say that, to a certain extent, it can be demonstrated that some styles do, in 95% of cases, beat other styles ? I mean, if your system does not address grappling then a grappler will beat you. Everyone knows what a punch is, how many people have seen a good low single ? Certain styles completely omit training how to deal with certain attacks, and so styles that do those attacks well will beat them. Almost all the time. I stand by that quite strongly.

Anyway precious flower, sounds like you have done striking in a few places, I'd urge you to try grappling ! Give BJJ and Judo a chance. To echo the others who said it though, finding the place you enjoy is the most important, because thats what will keep you going there.

Niall Keane

spot the difference? 
these two images are close in "form" or "expression" from a martially uneducated visual perspective. Some may even view the similarity as proof that the Karateka pair are doing the same thing as the boxing pair. 
one position is however "earned" , the other choreographed.... and that makes all the difference. 

How to get there, how to land a blow with "impact" using timing, range and angle against an opponent who doesn't want to play patty cakes but wants to knock you out!

Now let's look again, in the Karate kata the punching arm are fully extended and only just touching the opponent, this translates as zero impact. the unused hands are held at hip level, for aesthetic expression. unless one considers it necessary when all the knock out points on the head are with in stepping range of the opponent to instead guard one's hip? this is programming the body's nervous system to carry out martially incorrect and dangerous motions in combat. The boxers on the the other hand have sacrificed safety for added turning motion / power and let their hands fall, a classic MISTAKE, we all make from time to time in combat sports, but its EXACTLY what combat sports try to iron out not celebrate! 

Now, I don't practice Karate, my background is in Tai Chi Chuan, we have a form and many "tuishou" drills, which can be invaluable IF practised properly. Very few nowadays can actually fight with "their" tai chi chuan. When we compare and contrast what Tai Chi fighters do with what the run of the mill do we see the exact same "errors". Hands dropped in drills - training bad habits! lack of positional awareness and any concept of tactics and strategy to get there to deliver technique, etc.etc.. Basically we see what is termed by the Chinese a "sick art" or "tufu chuan" (beancurd boxing). this bean curd image refers to the lack of conditioning also associated with those who practice "flowery forms" instead of sparring regularly. just like in many traditional arts that have been around long enough to let the rot set in, you can have generations of people trained in the "art" who have never fought, and they tend to get overly concerned about forms and the aesthetics there in, creating pretty flower arrangements instead of functional training methods. 

So, you cannot know for certain until you try it out, you could go to a boxercise club that never competes and you will be wasting time, likewise you could go to a mcdojo and similarly waste time martially. You could end up in a proper boxing club that has regular inter-club competition for junior fighters etc. where you will quickly pick up highly useful and effective methods. and You might find a Karate school who compete in full contact competition. I know of one school in finglas Seikawa, who have regular fighters in ICBA sanda events, one of them, William Burdock is a current National Champion. Such people hold martial quality and their approach is as valid as any other tried and tested method. I've never seen their hands nailed to their hips on the leitai ;-)