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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #392
    brianon
    Registered Users Posts: 2,406 ✭✭✭brianon


    Norma_Desmond wrote: »
    This thread is a never ending loop of people not reading the thread at all and then telling the OP to move their child out of the Catholic school.

    97% Christian schools in this country people; if there were enough other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all. Don't see how religion has any place in schools tbh.

    Also, kids saying four prayers a day??!!??
    I thought things were moving forward and there was much more open thinking, kind of scared about the prospect of having kids now.
    Have a lot of respect for you OP, wasn't aware that the system was so parochial.


    Way too much time devoted to religion in primary schools imo.


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    #393
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    Norma_Desmond wrote: »
    This thread is a never ending loop of people not reading the thread at all and then telling the OP to move their child out of the Catholic school.

    97% Christian schools in this country people; if there were enough other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all. Don't see how religion has any place in schools tbh.

    Also, kids saying four prayers a day??!!??
    I thought things were moving forward and there was much more open thinking, kind of scared about the prospect of having kids now.
    Have a lot of respect for you OP, wasn't aware that the system was so parochial.

    'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

    There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.


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    #394
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    lukesmom wrote: »
    'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

    There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.

    First line in the OP
    bajer101 wrote: »
    My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

    I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

    My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

    I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
    1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
    2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
    3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
    4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

    Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.


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    #395
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

    There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.
    When is the time and place for my children to discuss why they don't believe Catholic teachings?


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    #396
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lukesmom wrote: »
    'If there were other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all' you said.....

    There was another option, she was in it! Now she is in a catholic school and says she doesn't believe in what they are teaching her. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid. The teacher could have handled it better but she was probably taken aback at the 7 year old disagreeing that there is a God. And for the many posters that mentioned my son Luke, he's just fine thank you very much. He's questioned the existence of a God as we all have but he's got manners and there's a time and place for giving your own opinion when the teacher is trying to conduct a lesson.

    He had good reasons for making the move, I doubt he did it on a whim. I don't think he is asking too much, plenty of kids in Catholic schools don't have Catholic beliefs, schools should accommodate them as best they can. ET schools seem to manage with multiple faiths.


    OP I think your daughter sounds amazing, there are adults I know who won't stand up for anything, who kowtow to the RCC despite not believing because they don't want to rock the boat. It's not easy to stand up against an authority figure especially when you're a kid. Good for her.


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    #397
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    eviltwin wrote: »
    He had good reasons for making the move, I doubt he did it on a whim. I don't think he is asking too much, plenty of kids in Catholic schools don't have Catholic beliefs, schools should accommodate them as best they can. ET schools seem to manage with multiple faiths.


    OP I think your daughter sounds amazing, there are adults I know who won't stand up for anything, who kowtow to the RCC despite not believing because they don't want to rock the boat. It's not easy to stand up against an authority figure especially when you're a kid. Good for her.

    Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.


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    #398
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.

    Is there something wrong with a child mentioning that they are different from the rest of the class? What about a child of a different faith mentioning polytheism,.should that child not mention they aren't Catholic?


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    #399
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    eviltwin wrote: »
    He had good reasons for making the move, I doubt he did it on a whim. I don't think he is asking too much, plenty of kids in Catholic schools don't have Catholic beliefs, schools should accommodate them as best they can. ET schools seem to manage with multiple faiths.


    OP I think your daughter sounds amazing, there are adults I know who won't stand up for anything, who kowtow to the RCC despite not believing because they don't want to rock the boat. It's not easy to stand up against an authority figure especially when you're a kid. Good for her.

    Thanks. One of the reasons I had to get fully behind her on this was that I couldn't let her spirit be knocked out of her. A big problem with this country is that people were afraid to question authority figures - not just the church. This facilitated the abuse scandals and corruption.

    Bit of an update: I collected her from her childcare earlier and she is a much happier child today. She didn't have to say prayers (she just stood with the class, but didn't say them), and there was no religious lessons today! I suspect that this was because the finer elements of what she will do during Religion will be ironed out between me and the Principal in the morning.


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    #400
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.



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    #401
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Thanks. One of the reasons I had to get fully behind her on this was that I couldn't let her spirit be knocked out of her. A big problem with this country is that people were afraid to question authority figures - not just the church. This facilitated the abuse scandals and corruption.

    Bit of an update: I collected her from her childcare earlier and she is a much happier child today. She didn't have to say prayers (she just stood with the class, but didn't say them), and there was no religious lessons today! I suspect that this was because the finer elements of what she will do during Religion will be ironed out between me and the Principal in the morning.


    That sounds good at least today she just stayed quiet and respected the class enough to get on with their prayers etc. I've no problem really with other religions or non religions going to a catholic school but when they disrupt what the teacher is trying to teach my children, what is on the curriculum then I'd find that rude.


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    #402
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    That sounds good at least today she just stayed quiet and respected the class enough to get on with their prayers etc. I've no problem really with other religions or non religions going to a catholic school but when they disrupt what the teacher is trying to teach my children, what is on the curriculum then I'd find that rude.

    What if Luke's friend wasn't Catholic and told Luke in the playground there was no God? Would that be the time and place to discuss why God doesn't exist?


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    #403
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    lazygal wrote: »
    What if Luke's friend wasn't Catholic and told Luke in the playground there was no God? Would that be the time and place to discuss why God doesn't exist?

    Yeah because there's no teacher trying to teach the children about God. Come on please don't compare a class of kids where a lesson is taking place to the playground. Luke has an open mind he doesn't have to believe in what I say. But he wouldn't disrupt a class where a teacher is teaching about God . He has a mind of his own but there's a time and place for everything.


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    #404
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yeah because there's no teacher trying to teach the children about God. Come on please don't compare a class of kids where a lesson is taking place to the playground. Luke has an open mind he doesn't have to believe in what I say. But he wouldn't disrupt a class where a teacher is teaching about God . He has a mind of his own but there's a time and place for everything.

    What about maths, would Luke's friend be able to ask how something mathematically impossible like a few loaves and fishes feeding thousands isn't part of basic numeracy?


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    #405
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Yeah great to single herself out from the rest of the class , I'm sure that went down well. I would wonder if it all happened exactly as the 7 year old said it did, I find it very hard to believe.



    What's wrong with being different to everyone else?


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    #406
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    lukesmom wrote: »
    That sounds good at least today she just stayed quiet and respected the class enough to get on with their prayers etc. I've no problem really with other religions or non religions going to a catholic school but when they disrupt what the teacher is trying to teach my children, what is on the curriculum then I'd find that rude.

    She had never previously disrupted their prayers, she simply announced during a religious lesson that she didn't believe in God and refused to back down. The teacher and then the kids told her that there was. Today was a lot better, because there was no religious lesson and she didn't feel pressured into praying.


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    #407
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

    George Bernard Shaw


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    #408
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    bajer101 wrote: »
    She had never previously disrupted their prayers, she simply announced during a religious lesson that she didn't believe in God and refused to back down. The teacher and then the kids told her that there was. Today was a lot better, because there was no religious lesson and she didn't feel pressured into praying.

    Well as you well know there will soon be another religious lesson so I hope this time you equip her well in advance with some basic manners and respect for what the teacher is trying to teach.

    And you can quote as many songs and poets as you like but the fact still remains that your daughter is in a catholic school where they go by the catholic ethos and teachings so she may get used to their prayers and religious lessons and feeling like the odd one out at 7!


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    #409
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Well as you well know there will soon be another religious lesson so I hope this time you equip her well in advance with some basic manners and respect for what the teacher is trying to teach.

    Does the teacher not have to respect a child who states she doesn't believe in God and deal with her statement in a mannerly fashion?


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    #410
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Well as you well know there will soon be another religious lesson so I hope this time you equip her well in advance with some basic manners and respect for what the teacher is trying to teach.

    I don't get why stating your belief is rude, it's as valid a point of view as any other.


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    #411
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    lukesmom wrote: »
    Well as you well know there will soon be another religious lesson so I hope this time you equip her well in advance with some basic manners and respect for what the teacher is trying to teach.

    There will be another Religious lesson, but this time she won't have to take part and she won't have anyone telling her that she has to believe in God. She will be doing something that both she and I will consider much more constructive - but she has already made it quite clear that she has no respect for what the teacher will be trying to teach.


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    #412
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    lazygal wrote: »
    Does the teacher not have to respect a child who states she doesn't believe in God and deal with her statement in a mannerly fashion?

    Maybe if she said it once but as the OP stated 'she wouldn't back down'. It's rude in my opinion and highly disruptive.


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    #413
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    bajer101 wrote: »
    There will be another Religious lesson, but this time she won't have to take part and she won't have anyone telling her that she has to believe in God. She will be doing something that both she and I will consider much more constructive - but she has already made it quite clear that she has no respect for what the teacher will be trying to teach.

    No respect for what her teacher is trying to teach. What have you created?


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    #414
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    bajer101 wrote: »
    There will be another Religious lesson, but this time she won't have to take part and she won't have anyone telling her that she has to believe in God. She will be doing something that both she and I will consider much more constructive - but she has already made it quite clear that she has no respect for what the teacher will be trying to teach.
    It's laughable to call teaching religion teaching. Call it what it is, indoctrination by someone paid by the state doing the work of a private organisation.


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    #415
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    No respect for what her teacher is trying to teach. What have you created?

    It's not teaching, it's indoctrination.


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    #416
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    lukesmom wrote: »
    No respect for what her teacher is trying to teach. What have you created?



    that's nasty


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    #417
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    eviltwin wrote: »
    that's nasty

    I honestly mean the situation not child.


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    #418
    bajer101
    Registered Users Posts: 2,178 ✭✭✭bajer101


    lukesmom wrote: »
    No respect for what her teacher is trying to teach. What have you created?

    She has no respect for the subject matter, because she doesn't believe it. If someone tried to "teach" that the earth was 4000 years old or that evolution was a lie, would you respect it?

    BTW, she has perfect manners and is extremely respectful to other people. I constantly receive compliments about her behaviour and in her previous childcare I was often told about how she would always help other kids with their work. I have just tried to raise her to be confident and to stand up for what she believes in and to question what she doesn't understand or accept. It has its downsides as I can't get away with "because I said so". But this event was not a downside.


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    #419
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    lazygal wrote: »
    It's laughable to call teaching religion teaching. Call it what it is, indoctrination by someone paid by the state doing the work of a private organisation.

    All schooling is indoctrination. It is to ready the child be an adult and turn up at a workplace at a specified time to carry out tasks as assigned to them.

    you are not some precious flower that would grow up to be some perfect being it not for the forces of the evil church and big business

    .


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    #420
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Norma_Desmond wrote: »
    This thread is a never ending loop of people not reading the thread at all and then telling the OP to move their child out of the Catholic school.


    This thread is a never ending loop of people not realising the difference between the way they would like things to be, and the way things actually are in the real world.

    97% Christian schools in this country people; if there were enough other options, this thread wouldn't be here at all. Don't see how religion has any place in schools tbh.

    84.2% of the population of Ireland are Catholic people, according to the figures from the 2011 census. The census is used by Government to decide where to allocate funding to each of it's various departments, and then those departments decide how to allocate that funding by examining the data provided in the census -

    The twenty years between 1991 and 2011 has seen significant increases in the non-Catholic population driven by not only growing numbers with no religion but also large increases in the religions of immigrants from Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia. The proportion of the population who were Catholics continued to decline in 2011, to reach its lowest point at 84.2 per cent, while its congregation, at 3.86 million strong, was the highest since records began.

    Source: Census 2011 Results Profile 7 Religion, Ethnicity and Irish Travellers – Ethnic and Cultural Background in Ireland.

    Also, kids saying four prayers a day??!!??
    I thought things were moving forward and there was much more open thinking, kind of scared about the prospect of having kids now.
    Have a lot of respect for you OP, wasn't aware that the system was so parochial.


    This kind of thinking unfortunately happens as a result of the "group think" I referred to in my earlier post - people can be led to believe that the overwhelming opinion in an online echo chamber is actually representative of reality, when the reality is unfortunately quite a distance from the online representation.

    This should by no means put you off having children, it's hardly their fault that the current system is the way it is, but there's a lot you can do to work towards changing the current system (I'm an advocate of secular education myself, and nothing hammers home the concept that "things don't change overnight" like being a member of the Board of Management, and a member of the Parents Council at my child's school. "Frustrating" is putting it mildly tbh!).

    lazygal wrote: »
    Is there something wrong with a child mentioning that they are different from the rest of the class? What about a child of a different faith mentioning polytheism,.should that child not mention they aren't Catholic?


    There's nothing wrong with it at all, in theory at least, because in theory everyone is tolerant and respectful of others and we all get along famously. The reality however, as most of us are actually aware, is quite different, and if it wasn't religion or absence thereof, it's usually something else.

    All schools will have anti-bullying policies, which read great on paper, I mean they're fantastic, but, again, the reality is quite different, as evidenced by the fact that these policies are necessary in the first place, not to mention continuous revision of said policies. I mean, we even have the OP here relating how their child was treated by their classmates, and their story is by no means uncommon. I can only speak of anecdotal evidence, but some children really can be intolerant little shíts, not to mention adults charged with their care during school hours, who are expected to be professionals, but then as I already mentioned -

    The reality is that things are often very different from the way we would like things to be, and nobody is immune from wishful thinking, regardless of their religious affiliations or absence thereof.


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    #421
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Earlier this year my daughter had a talk from Pure In Heart, they were warned in advance to keep quiet throughout the talk. My daughter challenged them on every dodgy statistic they trotted out especially the ones regarding homosexuality - she's gay. She was eventually asked to leave. I was very proud of her, the world needs people who are brave enough to be true to themselves and not be forced to pretend to be something they are not just to maintain the status quo. It is not rude to state who and what you are as the OP's daughter did, it's not rude to make authority figures accountable or ask them to back up their statements.


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