Is it self defeatist to say that some men are meant to be alone??‏

TheBeardedLady

paddy1990 wrote: »

You've guessed wrongly. Why do you feel the need to negatively characterize people who disagree with you? They "don't have any female friends and can't get beyond seeing women in a sexual way". Pretty big assumption to make and quite egotistical to think you can deduce that much about their lives from their posts on a forum wouldn't you say?

Ah get away outta da! Some wind up merchant.

blacklilly

From a females prespective and being single 3.5 years, I would never speak about men in the way in which some posters here speak about women.

There seems to be an underlying bitterness and objectification of women amoung some of the posters.

In my experience it's the men who have female friends who tend to be more successful in terms of being in relationships, maybe this is because they can communicate with women on a non sexual level and can appreciate them for their friendship.

Although there are of course obvious differences between the sexes, ultimately both men and women want to be treated with respect, there is no big secret to being successful.

BrianD3

What I find odd about the whole thing is that if you have a man and a woman who are good friends they may both end up in a situation where neither is interested in the other directly; though both might acknowledge that the other is physically attractive, fun to be around, a great friend and so on.

I have received the following comments from female friends and there were probably others too.

1) Two of us are talking about people we fancy she says to me "BTW in case you're wondering I regard you as having no cock"
2) "You're like my brother"
3) I am doing some work with a girl who is/was a friend, the work involved working near water. I made a comment about water safety and she says "well if I am drowning you're NOT to give me mouth to mouth, urrgh, yuck"

I was insulted by the last one but didn't show it - so if something happens and she needs to be resuscitated to save her life she'd rather die than have disgusting me anywhere near her mouth. Yeah, thanks for that :rolleyes: I haven't fallen out with her over this comment but I do have a different attitude to her.

beano345

blacklilly wrote: »

From a females prespective and being single 3.5 years, I would never speak about men in the way in which some posters here speak about women.

There seems to be an underlying bitterness and objectification of women amoung some of the posters.

In my experience it's the men who have female friends who tend to be more successful in terms of being in relationships, maybe this is because they can communicate with women on a non sexual level and can appreciate them for their friendship.

Although there are of course obvious differences between the sexes, ultimately both men and women want to be treated with respect, there is no big secret to being successful.

Just because you don't agree with it,doesn't make their experiences or opinions any less valid

Potatoeman

How can you not be just friends with any women? Thats like half the people you have ever met. The mind boogles.

If you are attracted to someone and they are not attracted to you, you should move on. I dont think its healthy being friends. Distance youself from them. A friend of mine stayed friends with a girl he liked that turned him down. He moved on and one night out of the blue she asked him to come home. He politley declined but I think she saw him as a fallback guy.

blacklilly

beano345 wrote: »

Just because you don't agree with it,doesn't make their experiences or opinions any less valid

Absolutely, everyone is entitled to an opinion but there are some opinions that are less valid by virture that they are full of vitriol and based upon misconceptions, this seems to be the case with a certain group on posters on this thread.

TheBeardedLady

beano345 wrote: »

Just because you don't agree with it,doesn't make their experiences or opinions any less valid

Yes indeed it does:

valid
ˈvalɪd/Submit

adjective

(of an argument or point) having a sound basis in logic or fact; reasonable or cogent.
"a valid criticism"

eviltwin

Potatoeman wrote: »

How can you not be just friends with any women? Thats like half the people you have ever met. The mind boogles.
.

You would be amazed the amount of men and women who don't come into contact with the opposite sex. My brother in law went to an all male school, went from there into a male dominated job and the only time he ever met women was in the setting of a pub/nightclub. He'd be the first to admit he only spoke to women he wanted to pull. When I first met him he was a real Fr Dougal, you couldn't ask him the most basic question without him going red and acting awkward. He eventually met someone but that wasn't until he was in him 40's. Even now all his mates are male, I find it strange and a little bit sad.

beano345

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Yes indeed it does:

valid
ˈvalɪd/Submit

adjective

(of an argument or point) having a sound basis in logic or fact; reasonable or cogent.
"a valid criticism"

Ooh right!! What I was trying to say was there is some good points being made on this thread but then you'll get the posters that trot out the bitter misogynist line in an attempt to discredit or rubbish other posters opinions/life experiences

TheBeardedLady

beano345 wrote: »

Ooh right!! What I was trying to say was there is some good points being made on this thread but then you'll get the posters that trot out the bitter misogynist line in an attempt to discredit or rubbish other posters opinions/life experiences

He didn't make any good points though? He's the one that ruined a reasonable discussion hence he was banned.



Women are just as entitled as anyone to defend themselves when someone badmouths their gender (happens a lot on Boards) and I think everyone kept their cool considering what he posted. You'd do the very same thing if I came on here badmouthing men (I haven't and no female poster in here has, I'll add).

Edit: Yes he's entitled to his opinion but you can't post whatever you like. He broke the charter and he was punished. End of story. It's posters like him who ruin it for everyone, male and female.

beano345

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

He didn't make any good points though? He's the one that ruined a reasonable discussion hence he was banned.



Women are just as entitled as anyone to defend themselves when someone badmouths their gender (happens a lot on Boards) and I think everyone kept their cool considering what he posted. You'd do the very same thing if I came on here badmouthing men (I haven't and no female poster in here has, I'll add).

Edit: Yes he's entitled to his opinion but you can't post whatever you like. He broke the charter and he was punished. End of story. It's posters like him who ruin it for everyone, male and female.

I actually wasn't on about that poster

TheBeardedLady

beano345 wrote: »

I actually wasn't on about that poster

Ah sorry! My psychic abilities are on the blink! I assumed we were discussing female posters' problem with the very obvious misogynist on the thread.

Sauve

Mod

Can we get back on topic please and leave out the discussion of banned posters be.
Thank you.

Sauve

Last chance.
Back on topic and leave out the discussion of other posters. Report anything you do not like, or pm a mod.

Off topic posts deleted.

Muff Richardson

I haven't read through the posts except for the initial post, for what it's worth the OP seems like an extremely honest and genuine person who is hugely self aware. These qualities alone are very rare and appealing in a person and I would say he's lucky to have this much and somebody would be lucky to have him.

Daveysil15

Wibbs wrote: »

/QUOTE]TBH, or at least IME that's rare enough. Depends on the age though. For 21 year olds it's a lot rarer than for say 51 year olds.

Well I've seen it a lot with younger people too and have experienced it myself. My sister was friends with her husband for years before they got together. I met my ex in work. I suppose we were friends for a while too albeit not very close. I suppose it might be rare for close friends to get together alright. In some cases it may just be casual acquaintances.

Funny I took the opposite view. Being rejected by a "complete bitch" was easy peasy. Along the lines of she's being a dick so why da fuq should my dick/brain/heart want to engage her any further. The polite ones registered more in some ways. Then you'd think "oh she's actually a nice person and has a hold on social interaction and isn't a bitch, that's more of a loss". Some wan being a Chick(tm) had little effect on me other than to waste my bloody time.

Yeah I totally see where you're coming from, but if I were to approach a couple of women in a bar and they were rude to me/rejected me harshly, it would knock my confidence a bit. Whereas if the girl engages in a bit of banter and then politely declines, it makes the overall experience of been in a bar/club more enjoyable and I'm therefore more likely to want to approach other women during the night.

Wibbs

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Yeah I totally see where you're coming from, but if I were to approach a couple of women in a bar and they were rude to me/rejected me harshly, it would knock my confidence a bit. Whereas if the girl engages in a bit of banter and then politely declines, it makes the overall experience of been in a bar/club more enjoyable and I'm therefore more likely to want to approach other women during the night.

It's funny how folks can differ so much D. The "bitch" rejecting me would have me on a mission to find someone cool, even if nothing were to happen, just to rebalance things for me. The same scenario and we two would come away with slightly different vibes. While we all tend to follow pretty black and white general patterns of behaviour, we do vary so much in the details. It's what makes humans brilliant.

Wibbs

Muff Richardson wrote: »

I haven't read through the posts except for the initial post, for what it's worth the OP seems like an extremely honest and genuine person who is hugely self aware. These qualities alone are very rare and appealing in a person and I would say he's lucky to have this much and somebody would be lucky to have him.

Agreed 100%. Economically speaking he has a killer product, now all that's left is to advertise.

Fate Amenable To Change

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

/QUOTE]TBH, or at least IME that's rare enough. Depends on the age though. For 21 year olds it's a lot rarer than for say 51 year olds.

Well I've seen it a lot with younger people too and have experienced it myself. My sister was friends with her husband for years before they got together. I met my ex in work. I suppose we were friends for a while too albeit not very close. I suppose it might be rare for close friends to get together alright. In some cases it may just be casual acquaintances.




Yeah I totally see where you're coming from, but if I were to approach a couple of women in a bar and they were rude to me/rejected me harshly, it would knock my confidence a bit. Whereas if the girl engages in a bit of banter and then politely declines, it makes the overall experience of been in a bar/club more enjoyable and I'm therefore more likely to want to approach other women during the night.

Have you tried not overtly approaching? Like while you're waiting for a drink and there's a girl beside you waiting as well, ask them are they having a good night? Whats a good shot? If she blanks you then, then its not you, she might have a boyfriend or just be having a bad night or even an attitude problem. If a girl rolls the eyes at that stage or something of that ilk I find I bust out laughing because there's nothing else to do really and nobody is that good looking that they can be that rude.

audi12

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. Hate to break it to you, but nope. I've seen it and seen it more than once. I've seen pretty damned attractive women being friendzoned in such a fashion.

There's also another angle. I call it Bonkzone(tm)(c) Wibbs 2002. Where a woman is getting the sex from a guy she likes, but feck all else. It's like reverso friendzone. If I was define a gender non specific Zone, I'd say as a general rule, men in that zone are looking for a sexual angle to add to the emotional/commitment, but are supplying the latter and getting nada of the former. Women in the Zone are looking for an emotional/commitment angle to add to the sexual, but are supplying the latter and getting nada of the former. And IMHO there are as many women in the Zone as there are men. It's just coming from a slightly different angle.

The guys must have been gay ..why is it so many irish women are stuck up

Daveysil15

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Have you tried not overtly approaching? Like while you're waiting for a drink and there's a girl beside you waiting as well, ask them are they having a good night? Whats a good shot? If she blanks you then, then its not you, she might have a boyfriend or just be having a bad night or even an attitude problem. If a girl rolls the eyes at that stage or something of that ilk I find I bust out laughing because there's nothing else to do really and nobody is that good looking that they can be that rude.

Yeah that's the way I'd normally do it tbh. Or maybe I'd get chatting to someone while in the queue or handing in my jacket. I find that way a bit more natural and less daunting than the cold approach.

Blink182rock

Daveysil15 wrote: »

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Yeah that's the way I'd normally do it tbh. Or maybe I'd get chatting to someone while in the queue or handing in my jacket. I find that way a bit more natural and less daunting than the cold approach.

Maybe try a weekend in england women are not up themselves over there like they are here

Wibbs

Fate Amenable To Change wrote: »

Have you tried not overtly approaching? Like while you're waiting for a drink and there's a girl beside you waiting as well, ask them are they having a good night? Whats a good shot? If she blanks you then, then its not you, she might have a boyfriend or just be having a bad night or even an attitude problem. If a girl rolls the eyes at that stage or something of that ilk I find I bust out laughing because there's nothing else to do really and nobody is that good looking that they can be that rude.

Pretty much, or she's frustrated waiting for the barman(we all get that way) or more, she's in defensive mode. Given many women's experience of drunken blokes of a night out(which is an Irish thing*), that may be her go to defensive response. Non verbal may be the way to go. Only engage with someone who has at least looked at you. A simple low level smile(not weird grimace) and take it from there. If she holds the look, better yet if she smiles back, then say hello or whatever(but hello works). That way there's no stress to the encounter on either side and no social imposition and no egos bruised.

audi12 wrote: »

The guys must have been gay

Which guys must have been "gay"? The ones getting the sexual angle, but not giving any emotional/general support?

..why is it so many irish women are stuck up

They're not. They really aren't. And like I said earlier in the thread you can stick a pin in a map of the world and go there and you will find that a fair chunk of the local men will tell you that "their" women are "X" or "Y". It's as common and universal as folks bitching about politicians being crooks. It seems to be in our bloody DNA. Maybe it is? That we, especially men try to seek out the unfamiliar, the "foreign", the exotic in women as a mating strategy to enlarge the gene pool and this gives rise to the [insert local nationality here] women are a pain in the arse meme. That might explain a few things. Women's female lines tend to migrate geographically more than mens. Women are also generally better at picking up languages which would help with geographical movement. You even see this in small towns in Ireland. You tend to find that the women who were around at 20 are more likely to have left and headed elsewhere by 30, while more men have stayed behind.

In any event Irish women are really no different/are the same as women from pretty much anywhere you care to mention. Not in my experience anyway, such as it is, even though I would have "gone foreign" more than most. They are more familiar to Irish men, but thats about it. You mention stuck up? I've seen far more of that among French and Spanish and Italian women to name but three, but again that was my subjective appraisal. Even there it was within particular social strata.





*this can be one reason Irish men think "foreign" women are less "stuck up". It depends on culture, but many cultures don't have the get absolutely slashed mentality that Irish people have, so in such a culture the women are less defensive because of that. They'll engage more and won't be as quick to get nasty. Never mind that they're not as blotto themselves. And you're exotic and because you think you'll do better you're more likely to be socially confident and open and that breeds more results, which breeds more confidence and rinse and repeat. The women are practically the same, but you have changed in your interactions with them.

astonaidan

It is true about Irish men, they do stay in there home town a lot more than the girls, in my home town, I seriously reckon the numbers are like 10-1 single guys to single girls in the winter when the college kids go home

Pug160

Wibbs wrote: »

In any event Irish women are really no different/are the same as women from pretty much anywhere you care to mention. Not in my experience anyway, such as it is, even though I would have "gone foreign" more than most. They are more familiar to Irish men, but thats about it. You mention stuck up? I've seen far more of that among French and Spanish and Italian women to name but three, but again that was my subjective appraisal. Even there it was within particular social strata.


*this can be one reason Irish men think "foreign" women are less "stuck up". It depends on culture, but many cultures don't have the get absolutely slashed mentality that Irish people have, so in such a culture the women are less defensive because of that. They'll engage more and won't be as quick to get nasty. Never mind that they're not as blotto themselves. And you're exotic and because you think you'll do better you're more likely to be socially confident and open and that breeds more results, which breeds more confidence and rinse and repeat. The women are practically the same, but you have changed in your interactions with them.

What about men with lower social status than the women - do you think there is more snobbery in certain countries than there is in others, or do you think it's roughly the same? I'm just thinking that there could be a fair bit more of it in a polarised society - which is fairly obvious I suppose.

Daveysil15

Blink182rock wrote: »

Maybe try a weekend in england women are not up themselves over there like they are here

Wibbs pretty much summed it up perfectly. I mean you could go to England and approach lots of women. Half the women you approach could be friendly while the other half are rude, but you're more likely to concentrate on the half that were friendly, whereas if the same thing happened here you'd probably focus on the bad.

You'll encounter just as many stuck up women in England, especially in places where you have the Geordie shore types. Plus I find the women that are 'up themselves' are generally the younger ones, 18-24 age group. I'm at the stage now where I'd generally be approaching women in their late 20's/early 30's and I find them to be a lot more approachable.

Bafucin

Originally Posted by Blink182rock View Post

Maybe try a weekend in england women are not up themselves over there like they are here

Lol at this.

diveout

Wibbs wrote: »

have stayed behind.

In any event Irish women are really no different/are the same as women from pretty much anywhere you care to mention. Not in my experience anyway, such as it is, even though I would have "gone foreign" more than most. They are more familiar to Irish men, but thats about it. You mention stuck up? I've seen far more of that among French and Spanish and Italian women to name but three, but again that was my subjective appraisal. Even there it was within particular social strata.





*this can be one reason Irish men think "foreign" women are less "stuck up". It depends on culture, but many cultures don't have the get absolutely slashed mentality that Irish people have, so in such a culture the women are less defensive because of that. They'll engage more and won't be as quick to get nasty. Never mind that they're not as blotto themselves. And you're exotic and because you think you'll do better you're more likely to be socially confident and open and that breeds more results, which breeds more confidence and rinse and repeat. The women are practically the same, but you have changed in your interactions with them.

WHen you have two people from two cultures, they may not be able to pick up the 'codes' of how stuck up manifests.

Add that to the glamour of difference.

Wibbs

Pug160 wrote: »

What about men with lower social status than the women - do you think there is more snobbery in certain countries than there is in others, or do you think it's roughly the same? I'm just thinking that there could be a fair bit more of it in a polarised society - which is fairly obvious I suppose.

I'd reckon snobbery and especially dating snobbery, or rather more social selection is higher in societies with less social support and/or that are more competitive. Compare Ireland with say the US. We're much more similar than we're not, but Ireland has more in the way of social welfare, medicine, housing and education. So women in such a society will tend to have more leeway on the financial and social status of a man because it's less vital as a survival thing, whereas in US society where simply getting ill, or just getting pregnant and having a baby can be expensive to the point of bankruptcy* so financial considerations are of more import.

A further extreme would be found in countries like Russia where wealth and status can be extremely polarised. Again women in such societies are more likely to select for financial and social status. It would also explain why women in such societies are more willing to date and travel to richer societies and men from the latter can "trade up" compared to what they might expect in their own societies. "Thai brides" would be an example of that. Such women are very rarely from the middle classes of Thai society. To a poor woman in any society, especially as you say from a very polarised society, the average western 9 to 5 company man is "rich" compared to her and the men she is likely to find locally(and there would be higher competition locally).

diveout

Wibbs wrote: »

I'd reckon snobbery and especially dating snobbery, or rather more social selection is higher in societies with less social support and/or that are more competitive. Compare Ireland with say the US. We're much more similar than we're not, but Ireland has more in the way of social welfare, medicine, housing and education. So women in such a society will tend to have more leeway on the financial and social status of a man because it's less vital as a survival thing, whereas in US society where simply getting ill, or just getting pregnant and having a baby can be expensive to the point of bankruptcy* so financial considerations are of more import.

A further extreme would be found in countries like Russia where wealth and status can be extremely polarised. Again women in such societies are more likely to select for financial and social status. It would also explain why women in such societies are more willing to date and travel to richer societies and men from the latter can "trade up" compared to what they might expect in their own societies. "Thai brides" would be an example of that. Such women are very rarely from the middle classes of Thai society. To a poor woman in any society, especially as you say from a very polarised society, the average western 9 to 5 company man is "rich" compared to her and the men she is likely to find locally(and there would be higher competition locally).

I disagree. I think Ireland is more status concious than the US. Do you really think anyone in Ireland wants to even bring someone home with the wrong accent?

And it's bi directional, not just more privaleged people looking down on others, but the chip on the shoulder underclasses can be just as snooty in the other direction.