New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

alxmorgan

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There is no "busses" down de country. So stop:D

lads in fairness, we have gone a distance membership off topic.

Agree , the forum is way too Dublin centric.

But has the internet hit Scarke.

Fore !!!!!

SaveOurLyric

PARlance wrote: »

There is a demand out there from golfers to play minimal membership of €100 and then to play Opens with the rest of their budget.
It's quite clear you are against that demand and the supply offered by Scarke etc. to meet that.

There is demand out there all right. But that does not justify tolerating something that is fundamentally not available without other bearing the rest of the true cost.

There is demand out there for using public transport without paying. And if there werent, barriers, inspectors, etc, people would do so. It is legitimate to impede people from doing that because it is not economic, or fair on those who do pay. The argument that 'the demand is there' or 'I cant afford to buy a ticket at the moment' is not justification for facilitating it.

SaveOurLyric

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Golf is confused - it is primarily a sport run by individuals for themselves - ultimately it is the cause of the slow death we are experiencing.

I wouldnt agree with the slow death idea.
Yes golf participation is declining. But that is due to various factors and death is not necessarily the destination.
Golf boomed in Ireland over the last 30 years for a variety of factors: primarily rising wealth as income levels in Ireland double to average Western European levels , and secondarily, the unprecedented and unsustainable bubble that was the Celtic Tiger with its grandiose development mania, social climbing, and ostentation. Other factors such as increased leisure time, a reduction in class barriers, and, the not insignificant factor of the prominence of one Mr. E Tont Woods Esq.
But fashions come and go, an increased range of leisure options, a correction to the bubble, harsh economic pressure being inflicted on a significant portion of society, the number golf players and clubs is redressing. And it will find a new, more sustainable natural level. But not death.

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

Well then you are against the free market forces that allow your club to command a premium. And that's hyproctical.

Huh?

I'm not against free market forces.
What free market do you see that Im opposed to?

Distance memberships sustaining cheap as chips NAMA courses is not free market!

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Huh?

I'm not against free market forces.
What free market do you see that Im opposed to?

Distance memberships sustaining cheap as chips NAMA courses is not free market!

Lol. Well done on working Nama in there.

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

Lol. Well done on working Nama in there.

Im pretty sure that NAMA was brought into the thread long before my post.
Do you disagree that NAMA disrupts a free market?

PARlance

GreeBo wrote: »

Im pretty sure that NAMA was brought into the thread long before my post.
Do you disagree that NAMA disrupts a free market?

You're some man for your tangents when you want to wriggle out of something.
No part of my posts to you touched on Nama.

Just so you can have the last word....
Is the world flat?

First Up

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

There is demand out there all right. But that does not justify tolerating something that is fundamentally not available without other bearing the rest of the true cost.

There is demand out there for using public transport without paying. And if there werent, barriers, inspectors, etc, people would do so. It is legitimate to impede people from doing that because it is not economic, or fair on those who do pay. The argument that 'the demand is there' or 'I cant afford to buy a ticket at the moment' is not justification for facilitating it.

Demand is one thing - “entitlement“ is something else. There is a theme running through some posts that somehow it is someone else's (as in the
golf “elite“) responsibility to provide them with access to the game at a price they find acceptable.
Golf costs what it costs for a reason. It's not as if clubs are banking a fortune in profits, yet you get the whinges about “elites“ and “cosy cartels“.
Pure nonsense and a fair bit of begrudgery. Nobody owes anyone access to golf, any more than to any other leisure pursuit, whether in demand or not.

GreeBo

PARlance wrote: »

You're some man for your tangents when you want to wriggle out of something.
No part of my posts to you touched on Nama.

Just so you can have the last word....
Is the world flat?

Huh?
Wriggle out of what?
You brought in free market, NAMA makes that impossible for everyone from hotels to golf clubs. Do you disagree?

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

Demand is one thing - “entitlement“ is something else. There is a theme running through some posts that somehow it is someone else's (as in the
golf “elite“) responsibility to provide them with access to the game at a price they find acceptable.
Golf costs what it costs for a reason. It's not as if clubs are banking a fortune in profits, yet you get the whinges about “elites“ and “cosy cartels“.
Pure nonsense and a fair bit of begrudgery. Nobody owes anyone access to golf, any more than to any other leisure pursuit, whether in demand or not.

That's such a Dublin thing to say....apparently.

GreeBo

pete4pool wrote: »

Been a couple of days since I checked the forum. Reading all the posts one thing that strikes me clearly is people from Dublin think there is nothing outside the city bounds. "Sure there are cheap membership in blanchardstown"or "sure there are plenty of council golf clubs to join". We all do not have these options.
Then people hijacking the thread to talk about how FCC is handling its golf courses.

OK rant over, will get shot down big time over that too :-) I'm harsh but I have a point. Don't want to turn this in to Dublin Vs rest, but can we keep the topic country wide.

It has little to do with Dublin other than fact i would guess most distance members are playing their golf I'm Dublin.

I don't follow your point, people outside Dublin don't have what options? The option of distance membership? Because that's the argument, not choice or availability of courses.

FixdePitchmark

GreeBo wrote: »

That's such a Dublin thing to say....apparently.

Maybe it is.

Golf clubs in Dublin are different to the rest of the country.

PARlance

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Maybe it is.

Golf clubs in Dublin are different to the rest of the country.

Golf is very different in Dublin versus the rest of the country.
I don't even think cities like Cork or Galway come close to offering golfers the variety of courses or price plans for golfers. Dublin (and surrounds) is a great place to be a golfer.

Do you disagree that Nama disruptes the free market though?

pete4pool

GreeBo wrote: »

It has little to do with Dublin other than fact i would guess most distance members are playing their golf I'm Dublin.

I don't follow your point, people outside Dublin don't have what options? The option of distance membership? Because that's the argument, not choice or availability of courses.

I was talking about the "options" that i mentioned in the line before. The option to join a club with 30/40 min drive with membership at less than €600. But it was the specific of the statements that people should join certain clubs in Dublin that I was referring to, suggesting that only Dublin people use this forum.

Why would you think that most distance members are playing "I'm" Dublin, other than the fact you think that its the center of the universe? What have you got to back this statement up.

Dublin Spur

I think the basic question is:

Is it unfair that golfers who have been forced due to financial hardship to organise their golf by means of a distance membership and play open competitions at more local venues be excluded from playing in the future.

I personally think it is, from what I has seen, most open competitions across the country are already undersubscribed - particulary mid-week ones, this is only going to get worse when the new rule comes in - also shutting the door on a group of players keen to play the game is anti-golf. The rule makers shoud be encourging more to play, this will probabaly have the opposite effect. It sends out a message that says "come back when you are earning more"

Russman

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I think the basic question is:

Is it unfair that golfers who have been forced due to financial hardship to organise their golf by means of a distance membership and play open competitions at more local venues be excluded from playing in the future.

I personally think it is, from what I has seen, most open competitions across the country are already undersubscribed - particulary mid-week ones, this is only going to get worse when the new rule comes in - also shutting the door on a group of players keen to play the game is anti-golf. The rule makers shoud be encourging more to play, this will probabaly have the opposite effect. It sends out a message that says "come back when you are earning more"

Yeah, but the flip side of that could be, is it fair that a group of golfers (admittedly likely through no fault of their own) want golf on courses they're not a member of and essentially don't want to pay the true costs of providing such golf ?

Come back when you're earning more is a little bit silly now. Just because I want something doesn't mean society has to provide it for me. I'd love to be a member of a perceived better club such as a Castle, Grange etc, but I can't justify or afford the €14k or €12k or whatever they are. I don't think for a moment that I'm excluded or a victim, I happily make do with the course I'm actually a member of.

The new rule, to be fair, doesn't place that much of an inconvenience on anyone IMO, is 3 games really all that much to play on your "Home" course ?

Dublin Spur

I actually forget all that is needed is 3 rounds per year on your own course in order to be eligible - its not a blanket ban - yep thats pretty reasonable

fair enough

GreeBo

pete4pool wrote: »

I was talking about the "options" that i mentioned in the line before. The option to join a club with 30/40 min drive with membership at less than €600. But it was the specific of the statements that people should join certain clubs in Dublin that I was referring to, suggesting that only Dublin people use this forum.

But why do you think you are owed cheap golf?
I cant live in Doolin and then bemoan the lack of cinema omniplexes and bowling alleys.
I dont think anyone stated that people should join certain clubs in Dublin?
Naturally people are going to give examples of the areas they know best, is this not normal? No one is suggesting that only Dublin people use this forum. I think you may be imagining slights where they dont actually exist.

pete4pool wrote: »

Why would you think that most distance members are playing "I'm" Dublin, other than the fact you think that its the center of the universe? What have you got to back this statement up.

Pointing out a typo? Please. Also, you may want to read the charter regarding being a grammar nazi.

Yes, Dublin is the centre of the universe and Grange is the centre of Dublin. Happy now?

/edit
Dublin is the capital city of this country, its also the most populated and has the most golf courses. I think its pretty obvious that most people playing golf are playing it in Dublin. Most distance members are also going to be based in Dublin, since most people live in Dublin. I dont think its a massive logical leap to assume that most distance members are playing their golf in and around the Dublin area.

Honestly, whats your issue with me talking about Dublin? Does it change the argument against distance membership one bit, or is it just a "let's poke at GreeBo for the sake of it" post?

ryaner777

Hi Pete4pool

do you mind if I ask what part of the country you live in ? or where you play the more local opens ?

Sorry if you've already mentioned it in the thread. I've been dipping in and out of it.

Why I ask is that from reading some of your responses it is clear that the extra financial cost of these 3 games per year in your home club is the main impact the change of rules will have on you.

Instead of everyone arguing the pros and cons of this rule change we might be able to help you with some other deals and offers available in your area within your budget.

For example if anyone in Dublin ( sorry but its what I know ) joined scarke the cost per year would be €120 + travel cost for 3 rounds and maybe accomadation approx another €120 ????

For €5 (€245 total cost) extra they can get and pay and play membership in corballis and have somewhere local to play plus have offers every day from other boardsies to play with at their club ??

If you can give us some info we could help find a more cost effective option for you and the tit for tat never ending debate between, cheap opens, distance memberships, nama and public funded courses can be saved for next year when we'll have a better idea of the impact of this rule change.

SaveOurLyric

pete4pool wrote: »

Why would you think that most distance members are playing "I'm" Dublin, other than the fact you think that its the center of the universe? What have you got to back this statement up.

The earliest estimates of the location of the centre of the universe were over two thousand years ago by the Egyptians, and they did locate Ireland and somewhere along its East coast as the likely centre. A truly impressive feat for the time.
Since then, further contributions have refined this and both Newton and Copernicus worked extensively on the matters. By the 18 century it was widely accepted that it was in the general location of what is now known as Rathfarnham.
Modern technology, satellite location systems, radio telescopes triangulating its position according to the movement of galaxies since the Big Bang, have now put this beyond dispute as being the blue marker on the tee of a first hole medium length par 3 on a golf course there. All the scientific literature concurs if you care to look it up. So its not just Greebo on this point pete.

pete4pool

Hi ryaner777,

Thanks for bringing the thread back to the point. Along with other I got dragged into whats right and wrong. But yeah, I started this to find out what the actual rule was an if anyone else was in the same position as myself.

I live in West Cork, about 20 minutes from the City - Cork City :-) . So I think be about 2:30 hours to Scarke.

For anyone who wants to know, I rang Scarke to find out the competition times and they run an open Monday to Sunday each week. Sign in and returned your card after. They'll put it in the system for you! Not sure how good that is going to be.
€15 for the green-fee + €5 for competition. Will travel with another member, so that should half the cost.

So I'll end up paying €120 + (€20 x 3, but I am still getting 3 rounds of golf for this) + (€20 x 3 petrol) = €240

I have play about 6 opens this year. Kinsale and Bandon mostly.

I think Frankfield in Cork were offering €350 a few years ago, but not sure if they still are giving this. Raffeen Creek giving €450.

No matter what I do next year, I'll have to play 3 this year, so will prob play there 3 times and depends on how i get on, I'll decide what to do next year.

ryaner777

Frankfield are offering GUI for €180 at the moment.

Could be a good solution and and a lot less travelling

http://www.frankfieldgolfclubmembers.com/New_Members_Application_From.pdf

Hope this helps

GreeBo

Lads we have threads for membership offers, please leave this thread for discussion about the rule itself

blackwhite

Not looking to discuss membership offers - but something in the Frankfield one sparked a question.

The associate membership there has a rule:
"Associated Members are not permitted to play in Full Members Club Competitions, unless these are deemed an "Open Competitions" (grammar errors not mine :pac:)

I've seen 5-day (Mon-Friday) packages at some other clubs that have a similar rule.

Has anyone established if playing open competitions on your home course would satisfy the new rule? If not, then some clubs will have to re-evaluate their offerings.

(and before I get accused of anything, I'm a full member in my club and have played 9 "home" qualifying competitions this year - excluding opens :P)

mike12

The whole discussion has gone a bit mad never thought it would get to 18 pages for such a simple thing.
In the end of the day you are being asked to play 3 of the rounds of golf you play in a year on the course where you have signed up to be a member. The rule is not saying you cannot be a distance member or that you can't play opens the same way as a full member it is just saying all members of golf clubs have to play 3 home comps to have a valid handicap to play in open comps.

I'm guessing there are guys in clubs for years who play with their mates maybe play the odd comp here and there that will have to change their habits the same way distance members will have to hop in the car 3 times a year and head to where ever they are a member.

Maybe it is something local clubs should for €200 we will give you a GUI no. and you can play in 3 of our open comps. Spaces limited to 100 people each year.

GreeBo

pete4pool wrote: »

GUI can say that you can only play 10 opens a year. So people are not abusing it.

I feel this point was missed and deserves some comment.
while I don't think you can limit the number of opens someone plays, perhaps there is something that can relate it to the number of home competitions you play?

bustercherry

mike12 wrote: »

The whole discussion has gone a bit mad never thought it would get to 18 pages for such a simple thing.
In the end of the day you are being asked to play 3 of the rounds of golf you play in a year on the course where you have signed up to be a member. The rule is not saying you cannot be a distance member or that you can't play opens the same way as a full member it is just saying all members of golf clubs have to play 3 home comps to have a valid handicap to play in open comps.

I'm guessing there are guys in clubs for years who play with their mates maybe play the odd comp here and there that will have to change their habits the same way distance members will have to hop in the car 3 times a year and head to where ever they are a member.

Maybe it is something local clubs should for €200 we will give you a GUI no. and you can play in 3 of our open comps. Spaces limited to 100 people each year.

Sure we haven't blamed distance members for slow play yet.....

I sometimes wonder how people on this board struggle round golf courses with all these worries on top of swing thoughts.

GreeBo

bustercherry wrote: »

Sure we haven't blamed distance members for slow play yet.....

I sometimes wonder how people on this board struggle round golf courses with all these worries on top of swing thoughts.

Maybe thats what makes them so slow.

gokster

This seems to have become a discussion on cost of and access to membership which I understand but the intent of the rule is more to do with the integrity of the handicap system which is the bigger issue here

SnowDrifts

gokster wrote: »

This seems to have become a discussion on cost of and access to membership which I understand but the intent of the rule is more to do with the integrity of the handicap system which is the bigger issue here

Agreed - I tried to address this point back at post #177 but it seems the actuall motive for the new rule is not up for discussion.