Irish Rail strike days

n97 mini

In fairness the unions knew what they were doing when they picked those days.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

That's well and good, but the accumulated losses (at nearly €52m) that have built up are still massive and need to be eaten into.


Perhaps you should analyse the company's balance sheet and you'll realise how bad the accounts are.


You cannot simply make a judgement based on a single year - you need to look at the trend and the context of the company's overall position.


Frankly that balance sheet needs an awful lot of work.


http://dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/2430/2013EnglishAnnualReport.pdf

Frankly a deal is a deal 19 months or when the company is profitable was the labour court recommendation accepted by the employees and the employers, the company is now profitable and clearly was at the time it was pleading poverty in the labour court.

It was all lies and spin, they started off looking for nearly 12 million accepted nearly half that in the end but were already profitable.

The deal clearly can not be over multiple years profitability because it is only a 19 month deal, the deal will only have a few weeks to run when the next accounts are released, it is a prime example of why you can't trust the company the labour court or the unions who haven't bothered to even raise the issue on behalf of their members.

LXFlyer

Infini2 wrote: »

Not against core pay however they agreed to reduced terms and conditions 2 years ago in return for leaving core pay alone till 2016. Lets also not forget not only all the new taxes introduced by the government as well as the water taxes otw and the fact pay has been frozen since 2007. Now theyre back trying to railroad cuts through again thereby breaking the previous agreement. On top of this the government keeps cutting the subsidy to undermine the company while management keep filling their own jobs. There was even a management job advertised internally the same week they announced the pay cuts not to mention a continuous stream of them being advertised over the last year or so. All the while frontline jobs like booking offices where the customers are are left unfilled. Hell its gotten so bad in some places they have to keep asking people to come in on overtime such is the lack of staff in these grades.

If it were simply just over a few euro it might seem petty but theres more factors in this and its all of these that are coming around to create this not least of all is trust. Without that there can be no agreement because how can you make a deal if the other side keeps breaking their agreements.

While I understand people's frustrations, bringing external elements such as water charges and other taxes etc. into this dispute is a false argument - everyone has to pay those, and most people in the private sector have long ago had their core pay cut - in most companies this happened over three, four or five years ago.


As I understand it, some of the new management roles have been forced on the company because the railways have to had to come into compliance with EU law (separating infrastructure management from operations) after an extended derogation - whether people like it or not that has had to happen.


The subsidy has reduced for two reasons, firstly a substantial drop in passenger numbers, and secondly reflects the financial realities of the State that we live in - the country is still in a precarious financial position, having avoided bankruptcy by the skin of its teeth. Every sector of public expenditure has been hit, and unfortunately public transport is no different. The PSO subsidy is, as I understand it, now frozen for at least the next two years at current levels.


Within every company the same reality hits in tough times. You can cut overheads so much, but ultimately the single biggest cost in any company is unfortunately usually payroll, and that is ultimately where the savings will have to come from.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

Frankly a deal is a deal 19 months or when the company is profitable was the labour court recommendation accepted by the employees and the employers, the company is now profitable and clearly was at the time it was pleading poverty in the labour court.

It was all lies and spin, they started off looking for nearly 12 million accepted nearly half that in the end but were already profitable.

The deal clearly can not be over multiple years profitability because it is only a 19 month deal, the deal will only have a few weeks to run when the next accounts are released, it is a prime example of why you can't trust the company the labour court or the unions who haven't bothered to even raise the issue on behalf of their members.

Well if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the overall financial position, that's your business. The company made a profit in 2013, yes, but has made minute inroads into the overall losses that they have made over recent years.

That shortfall has to be made up.

As I said, read the Balance Sheet. The company is far from being a solvent success story, and still hovers close to insolvency.

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

In fairness the unions knew what they were doing when they picked those days.

Of course a strike without impact is pointless, the bigger the impact the more pressure all round to resolve it, no or little impact and you can see what has happened to the greyhound workers, nice for greyhound customers no so great for the poor guys on strike.

Hilly Bill

Slattsy wrote: »

I dont know the ins and outs of this, and i dont want to stir anything, so maybe someone can confirm - have staff taken any form of a paycut over the last number of years?

Yes 7%.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Well if you want to bury your head in the sand and ignore the overall financial position, that's your business. The company made a profit in 2013, yes, but has made minute inroads into the overall losses that they have made over recent years.

That shortfall has to be made up.

As I said, read the Balance Sheet. The company is far from being a solvent success story, and still hovers close to insolvency.

It is not putting your head in the sand, that is the deal both sides signed up to ? Yes or No ?

The accumulated losses are largely due to government decisions like the removal of the fuel rebate And the cuts to subvention, the workers don't have to carry the can for other peoples mistakes.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

It is not putting your head in the sand, that is the deal both sides signed up to ? Yes or No ?

The accumulated losses are largely due to government decisions like the removal of the fuel rebate And the cuts to subvention, the workers don't have to carry the can for other peoples mistakes.

Well I think it's a bit more real than that.

It's a case of whether the company survives or not.

That requires everyone to unfortunately make some sacrifice.

As I said above, the subsidy cuts reflect lower passenger numbers, and the financial reality that this state finds itself in - just avoiding bankruptcy.

I think that you'll find most people in the private sector have had to put up with far longer pay restraint than Dublin Bus is effecting.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Yes 7%.

Most other public and private company's have taken 10-20% cuts easily.

If Income tax is cut in the budget it may very well cancel out any basic cut to wages.

Hilly Bill

Infini2 wrote: »

Not against core pay however they agreed to reduced terms and conditions 2 years ago in return for leaving core pay alone till 2016. Lets also not forget not only all the new taxes introduced by the government as well as the water taxes otw and the fact pay has been frozen since 2007. Now theyre back trying to railroad cuts through again thereby breaking the previous agreement. On top of this the government keeps cutting the subsidy to undermine the company while management keep filling their own jobs. There was even a management job advertised internally the same week they announced the pay cuts not to mention a continuous stream of them being advertised over the last year or so. All the while frontline jobs like booking offices where the customers are are left unfilled. Hell its gotten so bad in some places they have to keep asking people to come in on overtime such is the lack of staff in these grades.

If it were simply just over a few euro it might seem petty but theres more factors in this and its all of these that are coming around to create this not least of all is trust. Without that there can be no agreement because how can you make a deal if the other side keeps breaking their agreements.

They are still hiring temp staff and blocked anyone from moving to a new job that they applied for and got . They have supposed to have stopped hiring from outside around 2 years ago yet management seem to find work for a son within that time and also fastracked him to another job which went against the not moving to new positions lark . It makes a mockery of selection process for these jobs , over 10 years experience with good conduct a cert for the job being overlooked in favour of a manager/inspectors son with less than 2 years service and not a clue about the job.
Its now a case of trousers down, bend over and take anything that they want to shaft you with.
I think there is a meeting this week i think and it might lead to a bit of fun come sunday .

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Most other public and private company's have taken 10-20% cuts easily.

If Income tax is cut in the budget it may very well cancel out any basic cut to wages.

So? Just because workers in other companies have been screwed with their cuts, IR employees must do the same is that it?

Just because someone else is on a low wage doesnt mean everyone else should be as well.
Its a race to the bottom and FG wont be happy until everyone is on minimum wage apart from themselves.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

1.7% of €56,000 is €952.

Can you explain how you arrived at €6000 for those paid at the low end?

Lets make it clear the low end is around €34,000 not €56,000.

I got my sums wrong. Its around €772 per year for 3 years. Some more some slightly less. It works out about and hours pay every week.

That in itself is not to bad compared to what a lot of people have been cut but its all the baggage and lack of clarity that comes with it thats the issue.
Its like trying to save water when the pipe is leaking all over the place.

mickydoomsux

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said above, the subsidy cuts reflect lower passenger numbers

This aspect has never really made sense to me.

Less passengers=less revenue=less subsidy

More passengers=more revenue=more subsidy

LXFlyer

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This aspect has never really made sense to me.

Less passengers=less revenue=less subsidy

More passengers=more revenue=more subsidy

Passenger numbers fell dramatically.


The basic question is should the government maintain subsidy levels at the same level despite the fact that far fewer people are being transported?


The reverse should apply in normal conditions, that as passenger numbers start to increase, subsidy levels should rise again, but there is the second aspect in recent years of every government department having to cut expenditure due to the financial predicament that this country finds itself in.

Hilly Bill

cdebru wrote: »

Frankly a deal is a deal 19 months or when the company is profitable was the labour court recommendation accepted by the employees and the employers, the company is now profitable and clearly was at the time it was pleading poverty in the labour court.

It was all lies and spin, they started off looking for nearly 12 million accepted nearly half that in the end but were already profitable.

The deal clearly can not be over multiple years profitability because it is only a 19 month deal, the deal will only have a few weeks to run when the next accounts are released, it is a prime example of why you can't trust the company the labour court or the unions who haven't bothered to even raise the issue on behalf of their members.

The company are skint and have been for the last few years. They are living week to week. They are up on the first quarter this year but still in the danger zone so to speak. The Government know this and refuse to input more money in an effort to drive down the wages.
I dont agree with the strike as a work to rule would have messed them up without the staff loosing pay. No extra trains for the All Irelands etc, Possessions being handed back late etc. massive disruptions due to delays, walk off site at your allocated time and not hang back to sort it out.
The next person that looks down their nose at you just because you are in uniform and gives you abuse for nothing, tell them where to go as you dont get paid to be treated like dirt from them.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

So? Just because workers in other companies have been screwed with their cuts, IR employees must do the same is that it?

Just because someone else is on a low wage doesnt mean everyone else should be as well.
Its a race to the bottom and FG wont be happy until everyone is on minimum wage apart from themselves.

Your right it doesn't but if its a case of solvency for companies then workers would make a compromise. IE employees problem is you expect the taxpayer will bail you out. This deal is better than what was proposed and even if you were given clarity about subsidy etc I don't think it would make a single difference at the ballot boxes.

Hilly Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

While I understand people's frustrations, bringing external elements such as water charges and other taxes etc. into this dispute is a false argument - everyone has to pay those, and most people in the private sector have long ago had their core pay cut - in most companies this happened over three, four or five years ago.


As I understand it, some of the new management roles have been forced on the company because the railways have to had to come into compliance with EU law (separating infrastructure management from operations) after an extended derogation - whether people like it or not that has had to happen.


The subsidy has reduced for two reasons, firstly a substantial drop in passenger numbers, and secondly reflects the financial realities of the State that we live in - the country is still in a precarious financial position, having avoided bankruptcy by the skin of its teeth. Every sector of public expenditure has been hit, and unfortunately public transport is no different. The PSO subsidy is, as I understand it, now frozen for at least the next two years at current levels.


Within every company the same reality hits in tough times. You can cut overheads so much, but ultimately the single biggest cost in any company is unfortunately usually payroll, and that is ultimately where the savings will have to come from.

The passenger numbers are up.
Its ok for us to pay twice then is it? If Irish Rail got the exact fare from the government for those that travel free then they would be in profit every year.
I'd say 60 - 70 % of those that travel outside of the peak hours are on free travel , its getting silly.

LXFlyer

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The passenger numbers are up.
Its ok for us to pay twice then is it? If Irish Rail got the exact fare from the government for those that travel free then they would be in profit every year.
I'd say 60 - 70 % of those that travel outside of the peak hours are on free travel , its getting silly.

The passenger numbers dropped significantly over the last five years - there have been five reductions in subsidy.


Ideally, subsidy would rise again next year, but it's frozen due to the financial situation is in - or should we all just ignore that?

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Your right it doesn't but if its a case of solvency for companies then workers would make a compromise. IE employees problem is you expect the taxpayer will bail you out. This deal is better than what was proposed and even if you were given clarity about subsidy etc I don't think it would make a single difference at the ballot boxes.

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

Hilly Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

The passenger numbers dropped significantly over the last five years - there have been five reductions in subsidy.


Ideally, subsidy would rise again next year, but it's frozen due to the financial situation is in - or should we all just ignore that?

Seeing the state has money when it suits and they part own Irish Rail, then they should either pay up or sell up.

mickydoomsux

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think that IE employees (and other people working in the public sector) pay no tax at all and the money they get is somehow "dishonestly" earned.

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

We all pay taxes, big deal, it does not mean IE employee taxes should go into saving the company because they are running out of money;

Hilly Bill

46% tax, 17% usc. Not much left to fight over is there. The take home pay after tax is less for some than what you would get on the dole with all these different benefits you get these days. You work just to pay the government and your tax then goes to those that havent done a days work in their life and to add insult to injury they give them free travel on top of it.

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

We all pay taxes, big deal, it does not mean IE employee taxes should go into saving the company because they are running out of money;

exactly hence the strike. The employees are being taxed extra to bail out the company .

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Seeing the state has money when it suits and they part own Irish Rail, then they should either pay up or sell up.

And if they do sell up what exactly do you think a private group are going to do to employee wages? It is beyond me how a company with a monopoly on the country's trains make a loss, but leaving that aside I would have thought a 1.7% cut was pretty reasonable.

steveblack

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

It is beyond me how a company with a monopoly on the country's trains make a loss,

Political interference plain and simple.

Jammed packed commuter trains in and out of dublin every day, empty trains running in the west of ireland to keep a politician happy. There is where money could be made, transfer those train carriages to dublin where they will be filled and profitable.

Free Travel, IE getting paid pennys per journey, where as fair paying passengers are coughing up €10+ per ticket.

No need to wonder why IE or The CIE group of companies struggle to turn a profit.

mickydoomsux

steveblack wrote: »

Free Travel, IE getting paid pennys per journey, where as fair paying passengers are coughing up €10+ per ticket.

There are people i see traveling to work everyday on their FTP who get on the same trains as people paying thousands a year on commuter tickets. The price of yearly tickets from our station to Dublin is going up by roughly a grand this September. Paying customers are absolutely right to be pissed off with the company and i can hardly blame them for finding alternative transport arrangements.

How is that "fair" to anyone involved, except for the person on the free ride?

Jamie2k9

Hilly Bill wrote: »

exactly hence the strike. The employees are being taxed extra to bail out the company .

yet the bailout bill will grow be a couple of hundred thousand because of the strikes so who will pick up the bill?

46% tax, 17% usc. Not much left to fight over is there. The take home pay after tax is less for some than what you would get on the dole with all these different benefits you get these days. You work just to pay the government and your tax then goes to those that havent done a days work in their life and to add insult to injury they give them free travel on top of it.

With respect there is plenty in IE who don't know a hard days work is.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Note that those employees pay up to 46% in tax every week so they would be bailing themselves out.

The subvention works out at about €28k per staff member so if the average wage was €62k that'd be accurate. Except they wouldn't be contributing anything to any other public services they use if all their income tax went into IE.

Infini

Meanwhile in Mauritius.....

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/irish-rail-boss-enjoys-mauritius-4080620