"IF" a United Ireland did happen...(Mod warning in OP, stay on topic!))

sparky42

pilgrim pat wrote: »

did you know the people of the republic of Ireland can vote in uk elections , why is this possible ?

Legacy of the past, from memory British can vote in irish elections as well.

katydid

Karl Stein wrote: »

Unlike those born in jurisdictions outside the island Irish in the six counties are privileged by the constitution.



Oh, and the constitutional aspiration of a UI remains codified in the Irish Constitution.

Not privileged to vote in our elections, to pay our water tax or USC, not privileged to autumatically become part of our state while living in another jurisdicition. That depends on the will of ALL the people on this island.

So what if the aspiration for a United Ireland is part of our constitution? We all aspire for world peace and love and joy between men. It doesn't mean it's a realistic aspiration.

Jesus.

katydid wrote: »

So what if the aspiration for a United Ireland is part of our constitution? We all aspire for world peace and love and joy between men. It doesn't mean it's a realistic aspiration.

You don't think a UI is a realistic aspiration for some point in the future?

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

You don't think a UI is a realistic aspiration for some point in the future?

Not a peaceful one.

ardmacha

Jesus. wrote: »

Why on earth has the Government decided to bring the UK back to the European Courts?

Are they running scared of Sinn Fein's polling or something?

To quote Keynes "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"

katydid wrote:

So what if the aspiration for a United Ireland is part of our constitution? We all aspire for world peace and love and joy between men. It doesn't mean it's a realistic aspiration.

Some of us promote world peace and some oppose it, you seem to be in the Putin camp on this one.

katydid

ardmacha wrote: »

Some of us promote world peace and some oppose it, you seem to be in the Putin camp on this one.

You don't have to be a warmonger to know that, given human nature, we will never have world peace.

Just like we'll never have a million unionists shrugging their shoulders and going along with a united Ireland.

It's called being a realist.

Jesus.

ardmacha wrote: »

To quote Keynes "When my information changes, I alter my conclusions. What do you do, sir?"

Indeed.

But why drag them back to the courts now that we're on such friendly terms?

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

You don't have to be a warmonger to know that, given human nature, we will never have world peace.

Just like we'll never have a million unionists shrugging their shoulders and going along with a united Ireland.

It's called being a realist.

If in the future the north votes to be part of a united Ireland, and the south also votes for it (personally we shouldn't have a vote), why do you care if unionists come peacefully or not?

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If in the future the north votes to be part of a united Ireland, and the south also votes for it (personally we shouldn't have a vote), why do you care if unionists come peacefully or not?

Why should I care that the country I live in and love would be totally ruined by a bunch of bigoted lunatics? Hmm, that's a hard one...

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

Why should I care that the country I live in and love would be totally ruined by a bunch of bigoted lunatics? Hmm, that's a hard one...

Ye how did the troubles effect you personally? How did the flag protests effect you?

ardmacha

katydid wrote: »

Why should I care that the country I live in and love would be totally ruined by a bunch of bigoted lunatics? Hmm, that's a hard one...

You've already said that you love the 26 counties, not the country. Which is it?

katydid

ardmacha wrote: »

You've already said that you love the 26 counties, not the country. Which is it?

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

Well northern nationalists also support the ROI team as it represents all 32 countys. Look at the crest. It only says Ireland. The ROI name is used, as we have to use it because FIFA makes us, we don't have a choice. It represents the whole country, all 32 countys.

How would the "sickness" of the "northern mindset" have any direct impact on you? How has anyone or anything from the north ever effected you?

The only sickness in this country, is partitionists like you who seem intent on creating an "us and them" divide between Irish people north and south of the border

The Golden Miller

katydid wrote: »

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

And no, the Republic of Ireland is not a country, it is a state. There is a difference.

circadian

katydid wrote: »

The island of Ireland is a country, culturally. The Republic of Ireland is a country, politically AND culturally. It is the country to which I owe my allegience, first and foremost - if the ROI is playing NI in football, I don't think twice who I support.

That is the place - country/state, call it what you will, that I don't want destroyed by the sickness of the Northern mindset.

Please elaborate on this sickness. I'm genuinely intrigued.

katydid

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Well northern nationalists also support the ROI team as it represents all 32 countys. Look at the crest. It only says Ireland. The ROI name is used, as we have to use it because FIFA makes us, we don't have a choice. It represents the whole country, all 32 countys.

How would the "sickness" of the "northern mindset" have any direct impact on you? How has anyone or anything from the north ever effected you?

The only sickness in this country, is partitionists like you who seem intent on creating an "us and them" divide between Irish people north and south of the border

It is the team of the Republic of Ireland. Not of Ireland. That is the rugby team. If people from Northern Ireland want to support our team, they are welcome to. But they have their own team; it's their choice not to support them. It does not represent them.

The sickness of NI bigotry and hatred would affect every citizen of this Republic. It would poison our society, and our social services, our politicians and everyone else would have to deal with it. We have our own problems - enough of them, God knows, but one thing we don't have, for example, is religious bigotry. Protestant and Roman Catholic get on fine - we definitely don't need the kind of mentality they have up there, that a certain religion goes with a certain political mentality.

It is not sick to love and to defend one's country and not to want it to be polluted by hatred and bigotry. I am not a partitionist, I am a realist and a patriot. There IS a divide. Look at the map and wake up to the real world.

circadian

Wow, sounds serious. Looks like a trip to the doctor for me, I didn't realise I displayed these symptoms at all.

I must inform my fellow nordies of this debilitating illness!

Jesus.

To be fair to Katy, why would the Staters want Unionist/Loyalist lunatics and bigots populating the Dail and having a large say on the running of the place? I can't stand the sight nor sound of them so I'd definitely think twice about a UI if one should ever become a realistic prospect.

There's plenty of decent, moderate PUL's in NI and I have respect for them. But unfortunately the other lot just don't appear to be in a minority. If they are, its a very large minority.

Who the fukk would want that backward-ass sh*t brought into their State? I feel for the CNR's and moderate PUL's, I really do.

katydid

circadian wrote: »

Wow, sounds serious. Looks like a trip to the doctor for me, I didn't realise I displayed these symptoms at all.

I must inform my fellow nordies of this debilitating illness!

That's the problem, you're too bound up in it all to see what's staring you in the face; your society is abnormal, and what you need to do is work on fixing it, not thinking that changing its political make up will change anything. Bigots will not stop being bigots just because political jurisdiction changes.

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

To be fair to Katy, why would the Staters want Unionist/Loyalist lunatics and bigots populating the Dail and having a large say on the running of the place? I can't stand the sight nor sound of them so I'd definitely think twice about a UI if one should ever become a realistic prospect.

There's plenty of decent, moderate PUL's in NI and I have respect for them. But unfortunately the other lot just don't appear to be in a minority. If they are, its a very large minority.

Who the fukk would want that backward-ass sh*t brought into their State? I feel for the CNR's and moderate PUL's, I really do.

There are also plenty "nationalist" bigots up there. We see some of them here; people who defend the campaign of murder and mayhem that their IRA heroes conducted for years up there.

Jesus.

katydid wrote: »

There are also plenty "nationalist" bigots up there. We see some of them here; people who defend the campaign of murder and mayhem that their IRA heroes conducted for years up there.

There are plenty of Republican extremists and lunatics still knocking about up there alright. Not sure I'd call them bigots in the same way I'd describe the other crowd but its a thing about a word we could argue about all night so let's not!

You're right in what you're saying. However, if there was a UI, these people's appetites would presumably be sated seeing as their objective would be attained so I would presume (hope?) that they'd melt away and not be as much of an issue as would tens of thousands of Bible-bashing, medieval headcases who are hostile to the very State they'd now find themselves living in.

I think you'd find most of the trouble would emerge from that camp in such a scenario, Katy.

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

There are plenty of Republican extremists and lunatics still knocking about up there alright. Not sure I'd call them bigots in the same way I'd describe the other crowd but its a thing about a word we could argue about all night so let's not!

You're right in what you're saying. However, if there was a UI, these people's appetites would presumably be sated seeing as their objective would be attained so I would presume (hope?) that they'd melt away and not be as much of an issue as would tens of thousands of Bible-bashing, medieval headcases who are hostile to the very State they'd now find themselves living in.

I think you'd find most of the trouble would emerge from that camp in such a scenario, Katy.

If they judge people by their religion or background, they are bigots...their appetites might be sated, but they would find it very hard to fit in in a society like ours, where terms like Protestant and Catholic are irrelevant, and where people from different denominations co-operate with each other. Not only would they find it hard to fit in, but they would bring their nasty bigotry into our society. That, along with bible bashing headcases are the last things we need.

Jesus.

katydid wrote: »

If they judge people by their religion or background, they are bigots...their appetites might be sates, but they would find it very hard to fit in in a society like ours, where terms like Protestant and Catholic are irrelevant, and where people from different denominations co-operate with each other. Not only would they find it hard to fit in, but they would bring their nasty bigotry into our society.

That's where I think the difference lies between the two communities up there. The religious bigotry is almost all one-sided. The Republicans who run around still trying to blow up the place and cause havoc would better be described as terrorists as opposed to bigots.

In my experience you'll almost never hear an Irish Catholic banging on about the Protestant Churches the whole time but you'll often come across Irish Protestants with an almost disturbing obsession with the Roman Catholic Church, its practices and beliefs. I'm sure Irish Catholic bigots still exist but they're very small in number compared to their Christian counterparts.

But hey, that's just my opinion

katydid

Jesus. wrote: »

That's where I think the difference lies between the two communities up there. The religious bigotry is almost all one-sided. The Republicans who run around still trying to blow up the place and cause havoc would better be described as terrorists as opposed to bigots.

In my experience you'll almost never hear an Irish Catholic banging on about the Protestant Churches the whole time but you'll often come across Irish Protestants with an almost disturbing obsession with the Roman Catholic Church, its practices and beliefs. I'm sure Irish Catholic bigots still exist but they're very small in number compared to their Christian counterparts.

But hey, that's just my opinion

I agree with you. From what I see, for the hardline Protestant it is ALL about religion. That's why, I think, the Protestants I know from NI, living and working in this state, find it so hard to live in the communities that have stayed put while they have moved on.

Mind you, the experience of these Protestants shows that there is some hope for Protestants who would be opened up to the reality of the Republic. But there are so many closed minds...

circadian

katydid wrote: »

That's the problem, you're too bound up in it all to see what's staring you in the face; your society is abnormal, and what you need to do is work on fixing it, not thinking that changing its political make up will change anything. Bigots will not stop being bigots just because political jurisdiction changes.

Thanks for clarifying my views and state of mind for me.

I am not a bigot and I do not appreciate this gross generalisation. Many of my friends and family aren't bigoted. Your post in itself bigoted, the irony.

I agree that there are bigots in NI, it doesn't mean everyone is. You get people with that mindset anywhere. To assume that everyone is of that mindset is a very simplistic viewpoint.

katydid

circadian wrote: »

Thanks for clarifying my views and state of mind for me.

I am not a bigot and I do not appreciate this gross generalisation. Many of my friends and family aren't bigoted. Your post in itself bigoted, the irony.

I agree that there are bigots in NI, it doesn't mean everyone is. You get people with that mindset anywhere. To assume that everyone is of that mindset is a very simplistic viewpoint.

I didn't say YOU were a bigot. I said there were many bigots. That is true. Not everyone, but more than in a normal society.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

I didn't say YOU were a bigot. I said there were many bigots. That is true. Not everyone, but more than in a normal society.

would having that point of view make you yourself one? I'm not accusing, only asking, as it is a bit bigoted to say somewhere has more bigots than anywhere else.

katydid

maccored wrote: »

would having that point of view make you yourself one? I'm not accusing, only asking, as it is a bit bigoted to say somewhere has more bigots than anywhere else.

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

maccored

katydid wrote: »

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

As yours surely seems to be. certainly in regards to the north.

Sheldons Brain

katydid wrote: »

No, it's not. Given the unfortunate history of NI, it has a particularly warped society. It can't even have a normal democratic system, because people's views are so entrenched.

All the more reason get rid of NI.