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"IF" a United Ireland did happen...(Mod warning in OP, stay on topic!))

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13567…17

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    #62
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    English?

    One of Britain's ways of 'letting go'(convincing the Unionists) will be to constantly and incremently remove that tit and that process of convincing has begun.

    And when will this process start? Other than in your head, of course?


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    #63
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,635 ✭✭✭eire4


    alastair wrote: »
    And when will this process start? Other than in your head, of course?



    Well if London continues to cut back on the subsidy they send to Belfast each year to keep it afloat that will certainly have a massive effect. I believe the cut was about 1b this year. in 2012 Belfast got an 11b subsidy so a 1b cut is a sizeable number.


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    #64
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Godge wrote: »
    http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/11/05/despite-a-slightly-increased-catholic-population-parents-are-walking-away-from-segregated-ed/


    Interesting article with very interesting statistics regarding the move away from Catholic schools to integrated educatiom.

    A further statistical sign of people moving away from the United Ireland idea.

    I don't see the connection.


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    #65
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    And when will this process start? Other than in your head, of course?

    It began with the mechanism for British withdrawal without blame...the GFA.


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    #66
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    It began with the mechanism for British withdrawal without blame...the GFA.

    The mechanism that re-inforced the commitment to the union you mean? Nope, that's neither a process of withdrawal, nor anything to do with 'blame'. It provides precisely the same 'withdrawal mechanism', that applies to Scotland. See any evidence of 'unconvincing' at play there?


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    #67
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    eire4 wrote: »
    Well if London continues to cut back on the subsidy they send to Belfast each year to keep it afloat that will certainly have a massive effect. I believe the cut was about 1b this year. in 2012 Belfast got an 11b subsidy so a 1b cut is a sizeable number.

    Cutbacks are a reality across the entirety of the UK. And unless those cutbacks plummet into the reality of what could be provided to NI under a 32 county republic, the 'massive effect' would have precisely zero influence in moving away from the union.


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    #68
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    The mechanism that re-inforced the commitment to the union you mean? Nope, that's neither a process of withdrawal, nor anything to do with 'blame'. It provides precisely the same 'withdrawal mechanism', that applies to Scotland. See any evidence of 'unconvincing' at play there?

    The mechanism that says, when the the majority decide you are not part of Britain, we are gone.
    I agree with Molyneaux and other Unionists...it was their darkest hour ('this is the worst thing that ever happened to us' I think where Molynneaux's exact words.) the day the agreement was signed. Implicit in the agreement is the statement, you are not going to be defended as British if the time comes.
    That is the Unionist insecurity that underlines everything since...flegs, SF are getting everything huffing...etc etc.


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    #69
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The mechanism that says, when the the majority decide you are not part of Britain, we are gone.
    And until then, the union is secure - just like Scotland. Are you claiming that the UK is trying to disengage from Scotland?

    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Implicit in the agreement is the statement, you are not going to be defended as British if the time comes.
    Again, nonsense. The UK has never made it it's business to defend 'Britishness' in any part of the UK.


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    #70
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    And until then, the union is secure - just like Scotland. Are you claiming that the UK is trying to disengage from Scotland?
    No similarity to. Scotland was ever inferred by me.


    Again, nonsense. The UK has never made it it's business to defend 'Britishness' in any part of the UK.

    They sent warships to The Malvinas, also disputed territory to defend the right of those there who wished to be British. They have agreed in an internationally binding agreed not to defend that right in a part of the UK. Explains the insecurity of Unionists since, every inch towards normality has been fought.


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    #71
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    No similarity to. Scotland was ever inferred by me.
    Of course not. Because that would confirm that the Scottish have the same deal, and no-one pretends that there's a move to disconnect them from the UK.



    Happyman42 wrote: »
    They sent warships to The Malvinas, also disputed territory to defend the right of those there who wished to be British. They have agreed in an internationally binding agreed not to defend that right in a part of the UK. Explains the insecurity of Unionists since, every inch towards normality has been fought.
    Actually, I think you'll find that the Falkland Islanders were obliged to hold a referendum on their preferred political status, by the UK government. The UK, as it's always done, will defend the interests of it's citizenry, but that's on the basis of the consent of that citizenry. The UK government has no role to play in defending any of it's citizens preferred parades, flag etiquette, or any other antics you appear to believe defines 'Britishness'.

    The GFA confirms the sovereignty of NI inside the UK. It makes no pretense that the UK will not defend that sovereignty, right up to the point that it is no longer mandated to do so by the people. Just as it does in Scotland, and, indeed, the Falkland Islands.


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    #72
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Godge wrote:
    http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/11/05/...segregated-ed/

    Interesting article with very interesting statistics regarding the move away from Catholic schools to integrated educatiom.

    A further statistical sign of people moving away from the United Ireland idea.

    katydid wrote: »
    I don't see the connection.

    Are people in Dublin who send their children to multi denominational schools not Irish?


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    #73
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Are people in Dublin who send their children to multi denominational schools not Irish?

    I presume most of them are.

    I still don't see the connection.


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    #74
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    katydid wrote: »
    I don't see the connection.
    katydid wrote: »
    I presume most of them are.

    I still don't see the connection.

    Exactly. There is no connection.


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    #75
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Scotland is very different, in a geopolitical sense, to the north. Scotland has nuclear power stations, oil and gas, naval bases and a land border to name but a few differences.

    Scotland is strategically important to England/London. The north is a boil on the UK's arse.


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    #76
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Exactly. There is no connection.

    Correct, there is NO connection but there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the conflict was about.


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    #77
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Are people in Dublin who send their children to multi denominational schools not Irish?
    ardmacha wrote: »
    Exactly. There is no connection.


    Northern Ireland is different. Segregated education has been used by both sides to preserve the Irish and UK national identities respectively.

    Integrated education promotes integration within the existing political framework, an increase in integrated education is a blow to those on either side who would favour a change to London or Dublin rule, it will help build the Northern Ireland identity.


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    #78
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Godge wrote: »
    Northern Ireland is different. Segregated education has been used by both sides to preserve the Irish and UK national identities respectively.

    Integrated education promotes integration within the existing political framework, an increase in integrated education is a blow to those on either side who would favour a change to London or Dublin rule, it will help build the Northern Ireland identity.

    Took you that long to come up with an answer? :rolleyes:
    Integrated education will break down the barriers between the two communities, it is what the proponents of that system have been saying since they started.
    The breakdown of barriers is what those who are trying to unite are trying to achieve.
    What won't happen as a result is further entrenchment.


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    #79
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Took you that long to come up with an answer? :rolleyes:
    Now now - while I actually would tend to agree with you on the point in question, there's no call for that. His delay, after all, may simply be down to having a life beyond posting here... :P


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    #80
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Now now - while I actually would tend to agree with you on the point in question, there's no call for that. His delay, after all, may simply be down to having a life beyond posting here... :P

    Accepted. Although it is evident that he/she has been very active elsewhere.


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    #81
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Took you that long to come up with an answer? :rolleyes:
    Integrated education will break down the barriers between the two communities, it is what the proponents of that system have been saying since they started.
    The breakdown of barriers is what those who are trying to unite are trying to achieve.
    What won't happen as a result is further entrenchment.

    Yes, it will unite people as Northern Irish, they will see what they have in common as more important that what they differ on.


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    #82
    mountsky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 164 ✭✭mountsky


    Can't imagine Ireland will ever be the 32 counties as a whole, no chance


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    #83
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,635 ✭✭✭eire4


    mountsky wrote: »
    Can't imagine Ireland will ever be the 32 counties as a whole, no chance



    Few believed the independance Ireland has today was possible at the begining of the 20th century and they were wrong thankfully.


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    #84
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    eire4 wrote: »
    Few believed the independance Ireland has today was possible at the begining of the 20th century and they were wrong thankfully.

    It won't happen in this generation (even the most positive polling doesn't get a majority even out to 30 years), by then you are talking about being separated for as long as the Act of Union had us joined to the UK. Given the realities that both the Republic and the North would have to face up to it's extremely unlikely to say the least.


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    #85
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    sparky42 wrote: »
    It won't happen in this generation (even the most positive polling doesn't get a majority even out to 30 years), by then you are talking about being separated for as long as the Act of Union had us joined to the UK. Given the realities that both the Republic and the North would have to face up to it's extremely unlikely to say the least.

    I won't live long enough to see out this prediction but I cannot see a United Ireland this century.


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    #86
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,635 ✭✭✭eire4


    Godge wrote: »
    I won't live long enough to see out this prediction but I cannot see a United Ireland this century.



    Time will tell I guess. Personally I hope your prediction proves to be wrong.


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    #87
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,880 ✭✭✭sparky42


    eire4 wrote: »
    Time will tell I guess. Personally I hope your prediction proves to be wrong.

    Sure, we'll be back in an IMF bailout for years and would face massive costs, but yeah!:rolleyes:


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    #88
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    eire4 wrote: »
    Time will tell I guess. Personally I hope your prediction proves to be wrong.

    You want all that Northern madness to come to this state?


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    #89
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    eire4 wrote: »
    Few believed the independance Ireland has today was possible at the begining of the 20th century and they were wrong thankfully.

    It only happened because we were realistic enough to know that it wouldn't work with the north eastern counties on board. And it still wouldn't.


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    #90
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    katydid wrote: »
    You want all that Northern madness to come to this state?

    So you just want to heap all on them across the water? That's very anti-British of you.


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    #91
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    katydid wrote: »
    It only happened because we were realistic enough to know that it wouldn't work with the north eastern counties on board. And it still wouldn't.

    The North Eastern counties didn't work very well by themselves or as part of another state. Bring them into the rest of the state on island might improve things.


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