Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

Mongfinder General

Fr. Ned wrote: »

As I said, I agree with you.
Paying PS/CS pensions out of the government current account isn't sustainable.
Every citizen of this country should provide for their own pensions from their after tax income.

What about the unemployable...

Godge

Fr. Ned wrote: »

As I said, I agree with you.
Paying PS/CS pensions out of the government current account isn't sustainable.
Every citizen of this country should provide for their own pensions from their after tax income.

Are you saying that you will abolish tax relief for all pension contributions? Can't see any other interpretation of your post?

Sheldons Brain

Fr. Ned wrote: »

As I said, I agree with you.
Paying PS/CS pensions out of the government current account isn't sustainable.

What, exactly, is unsustainable about it?

Zerothreat wrote:

.. and even worse than this, Joan 'the moan' Burton has renewed plans to force mandatory pension deductions from everyone else in the private sector.
I reckon it's more to do with having another fund politicians can raid/dip into at will, rather than caring about whether or not workers provide for their retirement.

Well nobody complained when the fund set up for PS pensions was squandered cleaning up the mess after the private sector pissup.

Godge

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

What, exactly, is unsustainable about it?




Well nobody complained when the fund set up for PS pensions was squandered cleaning up the mess after the private sector pissup.

Shhh, don't admit you benefit from a public service pension, that makes you public enemy no. 1

golfwallah

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

What, exactly, is unsustainable about it?

It is unsustainable because of the enormous cost burden it imposes on taxpayers. Civil Service pensions, where beneficiaries receive benefits far in excess of contributions made, are paid out of current government income. This is in stark contrast to private sector pensions, which are paid out of funds built up from member and employer contributions.

This Irish Independent article explains some of the implications of unsustainable public service pensions and under funded private sector ones:

It has been estimated that current State liability for future public sector pensions is of the order of €110bn, or nearly double the cost of the banking crisis bailout. To decrease this liability the Government has moved to reduce pensions for new entrants to the public sector. The Single Public Service Pension Scheme commenced with effect from January 1, 2013. But the OECD has expressed concern that changes to the system are being phased in too slowly.

It is in the interests of not only private but public sector workers that we decide on a strategy now so that we will be able to afford the State Pension into the future, increase coverage for private sector employees and have the resources to fund public sector pensions. Radical solutions are required.

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Well nobody complained when the fund set up for PS pensions was squandered cleaning up the mess after the private sector pissup.

All pension funds, be they public or private sector, should be put out of reach of government interference. And remember the "private sector pissup" or banking crisis as most people recognise it was "regulated" by the Financial Regulator.

Isn't it time we started to realise we're all in this together - both public and private sector - and start to work on public and private sector pension solutions that are sustainable for all?

Rightwing

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If we are really going down this road again of giving pay rises to overpaid public sector instead of doing the sensible thing of cutting taxes then we need to bring the troika back because we are clearly incapable of running our own affairs.

It's crazy.

All increments should be immediately stopped for at least a decade.

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

It's crazy.

All increments should be immediately stopped for at least a decade.

And how about a system of public floggings for underperforming PS staff while we're at it.

And if anyone in the PS buys a brand new car they should automatically have a 10% pay cut.

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

And how about a system of public floggings for underperforming PS staff while we're at it.

And if anyone in the PS buys a brand new car they should automatically have a 10% pay cut.

Underperforming should stay in the PS and get poorly paid. The better employees should leave. Private sector wages should be ahead of the PS, but the opposite is the case, no wonder we continue on a massive scale.

Vizzy

[QUOTE=Rightwing;92850723]Underperforming should stay in the PS and get poorly paid. The better employees should leave. [/QUOTE]

So what you want is a public service made up entirely of badly performing, underpaid people ?

Best of luck if you want a crime investigated or a fire extinguished !!

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

Underperforming should stay in the PS and get poorly paid. The better employees should leave..

How does that result in a better or more efficient PS?

Unless of course you don't believe there's any need for a public sector at all, which is a different argument altogether.

Rightwing

Vizzy wrote: »

So what you want is a public service made up entirely of badly performing, underpaid people ?

Best of luck if you want a crime investigated or a fire extinguished !!

Yes, something like that. We saw what Neary & Co. were capable of with huge pay & pensions.

The inferior workers can be given 40+ days off etc, productivity would be low anyway, and that would appeal to them.

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

How does that result in a better or more efficient PS?

I think it's impossibe to have that.

So I would like to see good workers rewarded in a proper environment (private sector).

relax carry on

Rightwing wrote: »

Underperforming should stay in the PS and get poorly paid. The better employees should leave. Private sector wages should be ahead of the PS, but the opposite is the case, no wonder we continue on a massive scale.

So you want public services on which we all depend at some level, to be staffed by underperforming staff? What public services do you want the State to provide where the calibre of staff doesn't appear to matter to you?

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

I think it's impossibe to have that.

So I would like to see good workers rewarded in a proper environment (private sector).

So how does that work in, for example, policing? Outsource it to private sector firms?

Vizzy

Rightwing wrote: »

Yes, something like that. We saw what Neary & Co. were capable of with huge pay & pensions.

The inferior workers can be given 40+ days off etc, productivity would be low anyway, and that would appeal to them.

Is that genuinely what you want ? Genuinely ?

Rightwing

relax carry on wrote: »

So you want public services on which we all depend at some level, to be staffed by underperforming staff? What public services do you want the State to provide where the calibre of staff doesn't appear to matter to you?

Library staff, the punters in the councils, office workers in hse, the quangos. Front line workers should be on average wage to good wage.

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

So how does that work in, for example, policing? Outsource it to private sector firms?

Let's not be fooled here. Gardai are extremely well paid, do they even have a leaving cert? They retire at what, 55 on a gold plated pension. :rolleyes:

Average wage is adequate.

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

Let's not be fooled here. Gardai are extremely well paid, do they even have a leaving cert? They retire at what, 55 on a gold plated pension. :rolleyes:

Average wage is adequate.

That's just your opinion, have you something you can offer to suggest they're overpaid for the job they do?

And that's besides the point, you said you'd like to see a useless PS comprised of underperformers. I'm asking if that extends to the police force, and you haven't answered that question.

barneystinson

Rightwing wrote: »

Let's not be fooled here. Gardai are extremely well paid, do they even have a leaving cert? They retire at what, 55 on a gold plated pension. :rolleyes:

Average wage is adequate.

I think it would be interesting, seeing as you have such strongly held views on everyone else's worth, if you disclosed what your work is and how much you get paid... Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

Rightwing

barneystinson wrote: »

That's just your opinion, have you something you can offer to suggest they're overpaid for the job they do?

And that's besides the point, you said you'd like to see a useless PS comprised of underperformers. I'm asking if that extends to the police force, and you haven't answered that question.

Never said otherwise.

As in non front line staff, hence I said they should be on an average to good wage.

My point remains, the PS should not be paid higher than private sector counterparts, this is the road to bankruptcy.

Vizzy

Rightwing wrote: »

Never said otherwise.

As in non front line staff, hence I said they should be on an average to good wage.

My point remains, the PS should not be paid higher than private sector counterparts, this is the road to bankruptcy.

Barneys point ( and mine before him) remains as well.

You want a police force,for instance,consisting of only the underperformers investigating crime as you would want all the good staff to have taken up positions in the private sector.

Would your theory also apply to education, medical, fire fighters ?

Rightwing

Vizzy wrote: »

Barneys point ( and mine before him) remains as well.

You want a police force,for instance,consisting of only the underperformers investigating crime as you would want all the good staff to have taken up positions in the private sector.

Would your theory also apply to education, medical, fire fighters ?

It's not that simple because where would they go ? In an ideal scenario, yes, that's what I would prefer. Private schools, private hospitals. Taxes should come down then and everyone benefits.

(I believe I am overpaid, but that's neither here nor there).

relax carry on

Rightwing wrote: »

It's not that simple because where would they go ? In an ideal scenario, yes, that's what I would prefer. Private schools, private hospitals. Taxes should come down then and everyone benefits.

(I believe I am overpaid, but that's neither here nor there).

So you appear to want a state with minimal to zero public services and minimal to zero taxes where the "citizens?" of the state pretty much fend for themselves in some private sector capitalist utopia?

Rightwing

relax carry on wrote: »

So you appear to want a state with minimal to zero public services and minimal to zero taxes where the "citizens?" of the state pretty much fend for themselves in some private sector capitalist utopia?

Small Government is best. Not just for Ireland. As Government grows, national debt grows. The current situation is not sustainable.

Vizzy

Rightwing wrote: »

It's not that simple because where would they go ? In an ideal scenario, yes, that's what I would prefer. Private schools, private hospitals. Taxes should come down then and everyone benefits.

(I believe I am overpaid, but that's neither here nor there).

Ah, you are making it up as you go along at this stage. !!

Do you or don't you want an underperforming and underpaid public service looking after front line services(or any services) ?

Rightwing

Vizzy wrote: »

Ah, you are making it up as you go along at this stage. !!

Do you or don't you want an underperforming and underpaid public service looking after front line services(or any services) ?

Well it is underperforming as it is. So therefore I don't see why it should be overpaid ?

I don't think anyone who goes to hospital will claim they are getting value for money. Getting out alive is almost considered a success.

relax carry on

Rightwing wrote: »

Small Government is best. Not just for Ireland. As Government grows, national debt grows. The current situation is not sustainable.

Can you let me know of any state in the world now or in the past where your utopian ideal of small government has worked or is currently working?

Vizzy

relax carry on wrote: »

Can you let me know of any state in the world now or in the past where your utopian ideal of small government has worked or is currently working?

North Korea maybe ????:D:D

Rightwing

relax carry on wrote: »

Can you let me know of any state in the world now or in the past where your utopian ideal of small government has worked or is currently working?

You are making the classic mistake and looking at it from the wrong angle. Economies are bust because of big Government, they are piling up debt and thinking they are rich.

not yet

Can I once and for all put the idea that PS workers earn average 50k and Private sector 35k..to bed
The wage bill in the PS includes every single woker: from Enda Kenny, all his advisers, consultants, Judges etc etc etc, this does not give a true reflection of the average worker, whilst the private sector does not include, C.E.O's, Bank Managers, Chairmen.

As I'm sure you'll agree this does not give a fair comparison of ''average'' wages in bother sectors.