Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:01pm

noodler wrote: »

Ugh. Just stop.

This is the sort of self-righteous crap you have to put up with from insiders on this thread.

Pointed generalisations, pathetic assumptions regarding your opinions, some sort of generic, putrid snide remark about my level of education and expertise etc.

You haven't said anything of any substance and yet you want to pretend you are 'debating'.

???

barneystinson · 05-10-2014 10:02pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

OK what sectors of the economy would you expect to see a higher average level of pay and expertise than education and health?

The legal sector. Yes similar
Pharma. No I'd be surprised if average expertise levels were as high
It/ tech. No
Agriculture. No

Etc. Etc.

Education isn't just primary school teachers. It's research labs in universities, lecturers etc etc.
Level of expertise massive.

But surely the average there is predominated by primary and secondary teachers? What proportion of the education workforce fall into each category?

Seems to me a case in point of the danger of averages, since even within the education sector you are averaging too many different categories of worker, from special needs assistants with level 7 qual's to professors with multiple PhD's.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:03pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Teaching isn't exactly what I'd call rocket science. What have you to do?.. study the challenging Arts in college..1 of the degrees known to mankind. Salary should command max. average industrial salary.

What qualifications do you have right wing?

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:06pm

barneystinson wrote: »

But surely the average there is predominated by primary and secondary teachers? What proportion of the education workforce fall into each category?

Seems to me a case in point of the danger of averages, since even within the education sector you are averaging too many different categories of worker, from special needs assistants with level 7 qual's to professors with multiple PhD's.

Yes I'm dealing with averages.

BECAUSE I'M DEFENDING AVERAGE PS PAY V AVERAGE PRIVATE SECTOR PAY.

IT'S ABOUT AVERAGES.

OK

barneystinson · 05-10-2014 10:12pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Yes I'm dealing with averages.

BECAUSE I'M DEFENDING AVERAGE PS PAY V AVERAGE PRIVATE SECTOR PAY.

IT'S ABOUT AVERAGES.

OK

Why bother, the two are totally incomparable, on all but the most micro level.

You're getting yourself wound up over a logically null argument.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:13pm

barneystinson wrote: »

But surely the average there is predominated by primary and secondary teachers? What proportion of the education workforce fall into each category?

Seems to me a case in point of the danger of averages, since even within the education sector you are averaging too many different categories of worker, from special needs assistants with level 7 qual's to professors with multiple PhD's.

I'm discussing right wing's comment that AVERAGE public sector pay is over 40% higher than private sector pay.

My point is that public sector AVERAGE is distorted by its dominance by two sectors with high AVERAGE pay levels due to their high AVERAGE levels of expertise.

The private sector has many sectors with low AVERAGE levels of expertise and pay which likewise reduce the private sector AVERAGE.

if you don't find averages useful then bring the issue up with right wing.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:14pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Why bother, the two are totally incomparable, on all but the most micro level.

You're getting yourself wound up over a logically null argument.

I didn't bring up averages OK.

Right wing brought up averages OK

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:19pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Why bother, the two are totally incomparable, on all but the most micro level.

You're getting yourself wound up over a logically null argument.

Of course the two are incomparable that's my point.

It's not a null argument thought.
It's simple maths.

barneystinson · 05-10-2014 10:19pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

I didn't bring up averages OK.

Right wing brought up averages OK

Yeah, I understand that, but you're indulging him!

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:21pm

barneystinson wrote: »

Yeah, I understand that, but you're indulging him!

No I'm not.

Rightwing · 05-10-2014 10:23pm

barneystinson wrote: »

You've very little interest in logical debate either to be fair.

Any joy on finding me the PS job categories that are 48% overpaid relative to their private sector equivalent, or do you accept that there is absolutely no value at all, from a "logical debate" point of view in the headline stat you quoted earlier?

Those figures I posted only show 1 thing, the PS are not underpaid.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:29pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Those figures I posted only show 1 thing, the PS are not underpaid.

No it doesn't.

barneystinson · 05-10-2014 10:31pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Those figures I posted only show 1 thing, the PS are not underpaid.

How do the figures show that?

The two are totally incomparable - the only thing it shows is that the average pay of one group is 48% (or whatever the figure is) higher than the average of the other - any further comparison isn't possible. And I know that you're not stupid enough to actually believe otherwise.

Rightwing · 05-10-2014 10:32pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

No it doesn't.

The average PS is almost €1K a week, name another country with a figure that high.
Over to you boys.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:35pm

Rightwing wrote: »

The average PS is almost €1K a week, name another country with a figure that high.
Over to you boys.

Norway and Switzerland for a start

Pointless exercise!

barneystinson · 05-10-2014 10:35pm

Rightwing wrote: »

The average PS is almost €1K a week, name another country with a figure that high.
Over to you boys.

What other country's PS is directly comparable to Ireland's?

Rightwing · 05-10-2014 10:37pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

Norway and Switzerland for a start

Pointless exercise!

Interesting, now I wonder what the average private sector wage in those countries are. That should reveal all we need to know.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:38pm

Rightwing wrote: »

The average PS is almost €1K a week, name another country with a figure that high.
Over to you boys.

Denmark Finland and Sweden
Norway and Switzerland

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:39pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Interesting, now I wonder what the average private sector wage in those countries are. That should reveal all we need to know.

No it won't!

barneystinson · 05-10-2014 10:42pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Interesting, now I wonder what the average private sector wage in those countries are. That should reveal all we need to know.

God loves a tryer - the king of comparing the incomparable! :pac:

Rightwing · 05-10-2014 10:44pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

No it won't!

Essentially what we'd find is that the PS in Ireland is doing very well relative to the private sector. This inevitably leads to bankruptcy. Greece would be another classic example. The pay differential should not be that wide. If the PS is underpaid, the private sector is grossly underpaid.

woodoo · 05-10-2014 10:48pm

Semi States (no pay cuts and an actual increase) Rest of PS (2 pay cuts) What does that do to the average figure?

How do you bring down the average more... by cutting the rest of the PS for a third time...

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:50pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Essentially what we'd find is that the PS in Ireland is doing very well relative to the private sector. This inevitably leads to bankruptcy. Greece would be another classic example. The pay differential should not be that wide. If the PS is underpaid, the private sector is grossly underpaid.

No. It is not what we would find.

Eustat data shows that the Irish public sector private sector pay gap is standard in Europe.

Go find data to the contrary.

Rightwing · 05-10-2014 10:51pm

woodoo wrote: »

Semi States (no pay cuts and an actual increase) Rest of PS (2 pay cuts) What does that do to the average figure?

How do you bring down the average more... by cutting the rest of the PS for a third time...

I'd be a big advocate of privatisation for all of them There would be an immediate return to the exchequer, and the wages would quickly come down.

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:52pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Essentially what we'd find is that the PS in Ireland is doing very well relative to the private sector. This inevitably leads to bankruptcy. Greece would be another classic example. The pay differential should not be that wide. If the PS is underpaid, the private sector is grossly underpaid.

Go find your examples with a relatively smaller difference in pay between public sector and private.

Rightwing · 05-10-2014 10:52pm

ezra_pound wrote: »

No. It is not what we would find.

Eustat data shows that the Irish public sector private sector pay gap is standard in Europe.

Go find data to the contrary.

Europe is effectively bankrupt. The bigger the difference in these sectors, the worse shape that economy will be in.

Peter Flynt · 05-10-2014 10:55pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Europe is effectively bankrupt.

You're entitled to your own opinion.

You're not entitled to make up your own facts.

Did the pub close early tonight?

Peter Flynt · 05-10-2014 10:57pm

Rightwing wrote: »

I'd be a big advocate of privatisation for all of them There would be an immediate return to the exchequer, and the wages would quickly come down.

Why then are the HSE employing agency staff at a huge greater cost from the private sector?

ezra_pound · 05-10-2014 10:59pm

Rightwing wrote: »

Europe is effectively bankrupt. The bigger the difference in these sectors, the worse shape that economy will be in.

Really. Romania's public sector was paid 10% more than the private sector in 2010 per hour. We were around 40%.

How much better shape was there economy in than ours?

Geuze · 06-10-2014 9:00am

Rightwing wrote: »

They need a rise alright :rolleyes:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/public-sector-pay-is-48-more-than-private-283560.html
Public sector workers earn on average 48% more than those employed in the private sector, according to figures from the Central Statistics Office.
Public servants are paid an average of €919 per week, compared to €622 in the private sector.

Some points on the public-private wage premium:

(1) The ESRI have studied the public-private wage premium.

Using 2003-2006 data, the premium was found to be between 14-26%.

See here:

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20091102110232/WP321.pdf

(2) The CSO also did work on this topic, published 2012, using 2009 and 2010 data, see here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2010/nes_0910supp.pdf

This found a wage gap of 10-19% in 2010, with various statistical techniques applied.

Note that for permanent, full-time workers aged between 25-59, the PS premium, after adjusted for the size of the organisation, is 6.1-7.3%

NB: the CSO data does not included the effects of the PRD - Pension Related Deduction, which was substantial.

Note that the 7% pay premium found by the CSO in 2010, would have been eliminated by the PRD.

The PRD marginal rates are 0%, 5%, 10%, 10.5%, see below.

The effective rate of PRD on 40k gross is 5.625%, see below.

So with the 2009 PRD and the 2010 pay-cut, the PS pay premium has been reduced to practically zero.

PRD details

First € 15,000 of earnings: exempt
Earnings between € 15,000 and € 20,000: 5%
Earnings between € 20,000 and € 60,000: 10%
Earnings above € 60,000: 10.5%
Based on these currently applicable PRD rates, the amounts of PRD arising at a series of annual pay points up to and including €60,000 are as follows:
Pay of €15,000: No PRD
Pay of €20,000: PRD of €250
Pay of €25,000: PRD of €750
Pay of €30,000: PRD of €1,250
Pay of €35,000: PRD of €1,750
Pay of €40,000: PRD of €2,250
Pay of €45,000: PRD of €2,750
Pay of €50,000: PRD of €3,250
Pay of €55,000: PRD of €3,750
Pay of €60,000: PRD of €4,250

Government to reverse some Public Secor Pay cuts

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