Discipline or abuse

Stheno

lazybones32 wrote: »

Stings for ages...

Yeah, I knew I was in deep **** if the cane came out!

iptba

mariaalice wrote: »

My husband sums it up this way, there was corporal punishment when he was in school but it was equally applied to everyone and was sanctioned by society, so neither the student or teacher saw it as abuse, yet today it would be considered assault by the teacher on the student, so the era and the culture in which it took decides if it is abuse or not.

In the all-boys school I went to there was corporal punishment, in the all-girls school my sisters went to there wasn't.

A female friend of mine told me in her school, it was only given to the boys (think this was only one teacher and the other teachers didn't use it).

I know a family close to me where the three boys but not the girl got the belt. Boy, did those boys run home fast immediately when their father whistled.

Stheno

iptba wrote: »

A female friend of mine told me in her school, it was only given to the boys (think this was only one teacher and the other teachers didn't use it).

I know a family close to me where the three boys but not the girl got the belt.

My parents didn't discriminate on gender, but gave up after about the third kid, as it honestly didn't work

lulu1

Years ago there was a family down the road from us and they got more than they deserved. I remember one evening the father found out that one of the boys was smoking and he battered the head of him so much that one of the girls came running to our house screaming. The same son was killed in a car crash a few years later. When the father died we were at the wake and a couple of other sons had just arrived home from England. I will never forget it, one of them looked at his father in the coffin and the words he said were Many a lashing you gave us and he turned and walked away. The thing was that to a stranger the father was a lovely man. But a brute to his family.

monflat

lulu1 wrote: »

Years ago there was a family down the road from us and they got more than they deserved. I remember one evening the father found out that one of the boys was smoking and he battered the head of him so much that one of the girls came running to our house screaming. The same son was killed in a car crash a few years later. When the father died we were at the wake and a couple of other sons had just arrived home from England. I will never forget it, one of them looked at his father in the coffin and the words he said were Many a lashing you gave us and he turned and walked away. The thing was that to a stranger the father was a lovely man. But a brute to his family.

A street angel and a house devil..
I know the sort!!!

Stheno

monflat wrote: »

A street angel and a house devil..
I know the sort!!!

As do I !

Liam McPoyle

There is a massive difference between battering a child and giving them a slap on the arse yet when threads like this crop up examples of child abuse ie battering are trotted out as if they are the same thing as a smack with the wooden spoon.

I would have gotten slapped when I was a child, as were my 3 siblings, as were all my cousins and probably most of my friends too.

Im 35 so perhaps thats a generational thing however one thing is for sure, when I did get a slap I deserved it. An uncle of mine used to punish his kids by spanking them with a slipper or I remember an instance when one of them had his mouth washed out with soap for swearing.

I also remember a neighbour who abused his two kids, I saw them getting slapped in the face on more than one occasion, that is not discipline, that is child cruelty.

I dont have kids but hopefully some day I will and I dont think I would have an issue giving them a slap on the back side if I felt it necessary. When I say necessary I dont mean for any little infraction, Im talking in extreme circumstances like say running across a road without looking of if they were caught stealing. Things that could have long term repercussions if not admonished straight away.

At the end of the day, will a child remember a stern finger wagging or one hard slap on the arse more?

Of course that may change when/if I have kids and I may be dead against it however as it stands, I dont think there is anything wrong with giving a child a slap once its

a) Not above the waist
b) Not more than one or two slaps at any one time
c) The exception rather than the rule

Stheno

Business Cat wrote: »

There is a massive difference between battering a child and giving them a slap on the arse yet when threads like this crop up examples of child abuse ie battering are trotted out as if they are the same thing as a smack with the wooden spoon.

tbf I am talking about the seventies/early eighties, corporal punishment was still in place in schools

There has been a sea change in attitudes since.
I remember being so badly bruised from being beaten with a cane that I dreaded p.e. day in school.

marcmc5

A few light smacks on the arse with the belt was usually what I got. It was no big deal. It did sting a bit but you soon got over it. How times have changed!

lulu1

marcmc5 wrote: »

A few light smacks on the arse with the belt was usually what I got. It was no big deal. It did sting a bit but you soon got over it. How times have changed!

i

And thanks be to God they have.

efb

Would you strike a child with a belt?

That even sounds cruel, heavy handed and extreme

Lou.m

lulu1 wrote: »

Years ago there was a family down the road from us and they got more than they deserved. I remember one evening the father found out that one of the boys was smoking and he battered the head of him so much that one of the girls came running to our house screaming. The same son was killed in a car crash a few years later. When the father died we were at the wake and a couple of other sons had just arrived home from England. I will never forget it, one of them looked at his father in the coffin and the words he said were Many a lashing you gave us and he turned and walked away. The thing was that to a stranger the father was a lovely man. But a brute to his family.

I am determined never to have anything to do with such a person in anyway. I almost did. NEVER again.

OldRio

lulu1 wrote: »

i

And thanks be to God they have.

Corporal punishment was legal in the sixties. In school when I stepped out of line I got a slap or the cane or the slipper. To be honest it didn't happen often. You quickly learnt the boundaries. Do children nowadays know the boundaries?

At home my father took the belt to me once only. I remember it well. I was being cocky and pushed and pushed. Never again. he made the point and I learnt a lesson.

Fast forward to my own two boys. I smacked the eldest once. He knew why. Never had to do it again. The youngest always knew the boundaries therefore was never smacked.

Now the eldest has children. He will deal with discipline in his own house correctly I am sure.

'Spare the rod and spoil the child' is something I do not agree with, but the attitude and ill discipline of some children nowadays needs addressing. An entire industry has grown up to pander to the whims of these bullies and brats. Perhaps if they understood boundaries the social workers and child psychologists could be better employed elsewhere.

Yes things have changed but is it all better?

lazybones32

The wife of a Polish man I worked with a few years ago was in a Supermarket with her young son. The young lad was acting up so his mom gave him a slap on his ass.
Before she had finished her shopping, the Gardai arrived at the Supermarket in response to a complaint of a child being battered. This was about '08/'09.

cloud493

No its not right. Maybe on occasion, a smack on the bottom is ok. But speaking as someone who got the belt more times than I can count, often for pretty much nothing, its not right at all.

SpaceTime

It's abuse and it became culturally acceptable I. Ireland and elsewhere particularly during the Victorian era and into the 20th century.

Resorting to fists and weapons just teaches kids to do the same.

I wonder if any studies have ever been done on corporal punishment and violent offending and domestic violence...?

walshb

Physically assaulting a child amounts to parental breakdown. Simple as that. Nothing a small or young child does warrants them being assaulted or beaten. And I understand fully that a child can really test your patience. Assault/smacking as a first resort is bad. As a last resort is not right in my view, but I can understand an odd smack (not very forceful may I add) here and there.

Anyone else find it somewhat sadistic/twisted that a grown adult could take the time to go and find a wooden spoon to smack a small child with? That takes thought and planning. Same for a grown adult who takes the time and effort to find a belt or instrument to strike a child with.

Lashing out with your hands at the instant the child does something "bad" is one thing, but retrieving an instrument to dish out a punishment is a little more nasty in my view.

the_syco

marcmc5 wrote: »

In the 1970s it was fairly common practice for fathers to use the belt on their kids yet today you would find yourself in hot water for punishing in this way. What do men think? Does it work? Is it good discipline or just abuse?

The threat of the wooden spoon worked well in my house when I was growing up. That, and we were taught right from wrong, but without violence.

The few people that I know who were hit by the belt got the hell out of their house as soon as they hit 18. The same people were good at fighting with their fists, and settled arguments with their fists.

OldRio wrote: »

Do children nowadays know the boundaries?

Their parents parents hit them when they were bold. Their parents can't hit the kids, but know of no way to discipline their kids, so the kids run feral.

OldRio wrote: »

Yes things have changed but is it all better?

The lazy parent only had to abuse their kids to get them to toe the line. The current lazy parent cannot abuse their kid, so their kid runs feral.

Those people who got hit and vowed never to hit their kids just disciplined their kids without violence. It's not as quick, but in the end, the respect is still there, albeit not due to fear.

Maguined wrote: »

If I had a Euro for every time I have been in public with an absolute brat of a child throwing a tantrum while hitting or climbing over other people while the parent weakly pleads to the child over and over to not act that way I would also have a fortune.

Not giving into the childs tantrum, turning around, and going home to spend time doing absolutely nothing... would slowly stop this. But it seems the kid knows that the parent will do the quick way and give in to the tantrums enough times that the kid knows they'll break their parents resistance eventually.

iptba wrote: »

In the all-boys school I went to there was corporal punishment, in the all-girls school my sisters went to there wasn't.

The three primary schools near me used to be a boys, a girls, and other school. When I was there, all three were mixed. During the 80's, my school never really came down hard on anyone, except for the main bullies. The school that used to be an all-boys school still practised corporal punishment on the boys from what I heard. In post-primary, there was no corporal punishment, although some teachers obviously only knew it as the only way of discipline, and thus couldn't handle the class.

iptba

the_syco wrote: »

iptba wrote:

In the all-boys school I went to there was corporal punishment, in the all-girls school my sisters went to there wasn't.

The three primary schools near me used to be a boys, a girls, and other school. When I was there, all three were mixed. During the 80's, my school never really came down hard on anyone, except for the main bullies. The school that used to be an all-boys school still practised corporal punishment on the boys from what I heard. In post-primary, there was no corporal punishment, although some teachers obviously only knew it as the only way of discipline, and thus couldn't handle the class.

That reminds me what a friend of mine told me that in his all-boys secondary school in the 1980s, officially corporal punishment was not allowed, but the teachers used to take boys outside of the classroom to hit them.

Dial Hard

My father never raised his hand to me and if he'd approached any of us with a belt, my mother would have killed him with her bare hands. A belt? Seriously???

I did learn very early on (as I suspect most girls do) not to cheek my mother while she was brushing my hair, though!

Ken.

Panthro wrote: »

Discipline for me came in the form of a wooden spoon smack to the rear end.
That was until the day the spoon snapped in two upon impact on my butt!:D
From then on, I had the one-up-man-ship on oul spooney.

Didn't do me any harm getting a clatter across the arse every now and again TBH.

My mother folded the metal handle of a mop around my back once she hit me so hard with it. In fairness to her I had my younger brother by the throat at the time and he was turning a funny shade of purple. I was in such a rage it didn't hurt.

What hurt was the confiscation of my pocket money to buy a new mop.

Good times.

lazybones32

walshb wrote: »

Physically assaulting a child amounts to parental breakdown. Simple as that. Nothing a small or young child does warrants them being assaulted or beaten. And I understand fully that a child can really test your patience. Assault/smacking as a first resort is bad. As a last resort is not right in my view, but I can understand an odd smack (not very forceful may I add) here and there.

Anyone else find it somewhat sadistic/twisted that a grown adult could take the time to go and find a wooden spoon to smack a small child with? That takes thought and planning. Same for a grown adult who takes the time and effort to find a belt or instrument to strike a child with.

Lashing out with your hands at the instant the child does something "bad" is one thing, but retrieving an instrument to dish out a punishment is a little more nasty in my view.

Kinda like a Justice system...a deliberate response, proportionate to the crime. Yes, lets end this nastiness and heal with hugs and understanding.

Apologies for the sarcasm but a physical consequence is inevitable for many offenses. If the child doesn't learn it at home, they'll learn it at school, sports, discos...

walshb

lazybones32 wrote: »

Kinda like a Justice system...a deliberate response, proportionate to the crime. Yes, lets end this nastiness and heal with hugs and understanding.

Apologies for the sarcasm but a physical consequence is inevitable for many offenses. If the child doesn't learn it at home, they'll learn it at school, sports, discos...

A physical response is inevitable for some adults, not all. Many other non violent discipline methods have proven every bit as effective for parenting. Like I said, an odd smack here and there (not very forceful) I can understand; it's the intentional and deliberate and thought out striking of children that I find bad, and nasty. The retrieving of belts and spoons to smack or hit a child with, or the smacking of a child at the least opportunity; this I find nasty.

iptba

I'm not into smacking children but I think a distinction could be made between using an implement and just using your hand. I think the phrase "this hurts me just as much as it hurts you" could be almost true if one smacks somebody on the bottom with your hand due to one of Newton's laws (for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction) i.e. your hand is sore from doing it. This doesn't apply when using an implement. If one smacks somebody with one's hand, one will feel it afterwards and may not rush to do it again; this doesn't apply so much with an implement.

PLUG71

marcmc5 wrote: »

Just having a discussion about the methods our parents would have used to punish growing up. In the 1970s it was fairly common practice for fathers to use the belt on their kids yet today you would find yourself in hot water for punishing in this way. What do men think? Does it work? Is it good discipline or just abuse?

Abuse!!

berrygood

I'd see it as abuse. Very, very strongly against hitting a child. Yes, children can be infuriating but I'd favour the time out approach. It gives the parent a chance to calm down also.

If you have to raise your hand in violence against a child, you've lost. You're basically teaching them that if they are frustrated or angry, then violence is the way to solve their problem.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

I'm not into smacking children but I think a distinction could be made between using an implement and just using your hand. I think the phrase "this hurts me just as much as it hurts you" could be almost true if one smacks somebody on the bottom with your hand due to one of Newton's laws (for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction) i.e. your hand is sore from doing it. This doesn't apply when using an implement. If one smacks somebody with one's hand, one will feel it afterwards and may not rush to do it again; this doesn't apply so much with an implement.

The potential for psychological damage is almost entirely one way, there is no equal and opposite reaction.

The child is unlikely to permanently damage the parents self esteem or potential for personal development by virtue of having had that parent hurt them physically.

It's a scale of abuse, with using implements like belts very firmly on the least acceptable end of that scale.

Corkfeen

The wooden spoon when I was a child. Personally, it didn't harm me. However it did nothing to improve my behaviour. I knew what to expect and dealt with it.

My two nieces have never been slapped by their parents but are perfectly well rounded and behaved. They have never been slapped. I can think of loads of parents that don't, hitting one's child displays ones lacking in parenting ability than anything else imho. If you have to resolve to violence to sort a situation..

quadrifoglio verde

My dads weapon if choice was a nettle during the summer and a bamboo cane in the winter. The welts that would be left on the leg from the bamboo was awful. This was the late 90s as well, so corporal punishment was long gone.
Sad thing is it'd stop me doing whatever I did that annoyed him for a day and then start again the next (mainly fighting with my brother) and I don't think I'll ever forgive him for it. There was no need for it.

RedXIV

thinking about this a bit more I think the effectiveness of a slap etc depends on the child. For example, one of my kids is so sensitive that she will cry if I raise my voice.....at a video game! 99% of the time, if she's being bold, I can stop it with a stern look or a bark.

I'm quite lucky with my kids like that but I know kids from other families that genuinely need to pulled up on their behaviour and timeouts etc don't appear to work.

it reminds me of how when I was in college, there was a girl I knew who slapped a few guys in the pub with us under the mistaken belief one had slapped her ass. One of the guys told her to get lost and never raise her hand again. She slapped him again. He slapped her back and for a second her world crumbled around her. She obviously had never had to deal with those kind of consequences before. It did her an absolute world of good! She genuinely was easier to deal with after that! (shame she was in her 20s rather than a child learning this lesson)