Discipline or abuse

marcmc5

Just having a discussion about the methods our parents would have used to punish growing up. In the 1970s it was fairly common practice for fathers to use the belt on their kids yet today you would find yourself in hot water for punishing in this way. What do men think? Does it work? Is it good discipline or just abuse?

endacl

It was discipline all right. Applied in an abusive way.

marcmc5

endacl wrote: »

It was discipline all right. Applied in an abusive way.

Does that mean you learnt your lesson from it but it was too harsh?

o1s1n

I still cannot fathom how anyone can hit a child, let alone with a belt! :eek:

Moat_Cailin

Seems a bit extreme in this day and age. Can't help but feel we've gone to far in the other direction though.

endacl

marcmc5 wrote: »

Does that mean you learnt your lesson from it but it was too harsh?

Learned that I didn't like to get hit. Taught me nothing about reflecting on the right and wrong of my actions.

marcmc5

endacl wrote: »

Learned that I didn't like to get hit. Taught me nothing about reflecting on the right and wrong of my actions.

It was used a bit in my house but I didn't think it was that bad at the time. I certainly didn't feel abused as most kids got the same where I grew up.Would have much preferred getting the belt to having my bike taken off me or being kept indoors at the time.

monflat

o1s1n wrote: »

I still cannot fathom how anyone can hit a child, let alone with a belt! :eek:

Neither can I. Now that I have children of my own. It's sad thinking back
BUT because it was done to us I questioned it once and reasons given were because my father had it done to him and that's why.

..

That's a great answer ain't it!

I actually was only thinking about it last night when my oldest child needed some disciplining how could he have done that......
It beggars belief.

Panthro

Discipline for me came in the form of a wooden spoon smack to the rear end.
That was until the day the spoon snapped in two upon impact on my butt!:D
From then on, I had the one-up-man-ship on oul spooney.

Didn't do me any harm getting a clatter across the arse every now and again TBH.

marcmc5

Panthro wrote: »

Discipline for me came in the form of a wooden spoon smack to the rear end.
That was until the day the spoon snapped in two upon impact on my butt!:D
From then on, I had the one-up-man-ship on oul spooney.

Didn't do me any harm getting a clatter across the arse every now and again TBH.

The wooden spoon was used a lot in my house, it was my ma's weapon of choice whereas my da was more a belt man

o1s1n

Panthro wrote: »

Didn't do me any harm getting a clatter across the arse every now and again TBH.

Without wanting to sound overly self righteous - it did. It actually instilled in you that it's acceptable to hit a child.

Them same thing happened to me as a kid, we got smacked. I grew up thinking 'it didn't do me any harm' and considered possibly using smacking as a deterrent to my own children if I ever had any. Propagating this myth that it's an acceptable behavior for another generation.

Then my missus (who's a primary school teacher) completely opened my eyes on the matter.

All smacking/beating/hitting kids does is tell them violence is a way of solving problems. On the more extreme side of things, bullies and kids who pick on other kids tend to be the ones who are more likely to be hit/abused at home.

On the lesser side of things (smacking a crying child in a supermarket for example) is just a parent venting their frustrations as they've lost control of a situation and it manifests itself in the easiest way - a smack.

As yourself a couple of questions;

If smacking/hitting is a legitimate tool to teach and control your child (and there are no other reasonable options) then how does a teacher control a class of 15-30 children?
If you heard a teacher smacked your child in school, how would you react?

mariaalice

It was not abuse at the time but it would be now because we have changed culturally and legally in our attitudes towards children.

My husband sums it up this way, there was corporal punishment when he was in school but it was equally applied to everyone and was sanctioned by society, so neither the student or teacher saw it as abuse, yet today it would be considered assault by the teacher on the student, so the era and the culture in which it took decides if it is abuse or not.

monflat

Yes I understand that but. When a young innocent child is screaming for the adult to stop and the adult.not listening to the child
The fact that they might be hurting them in any way was not considered.

Also my husband is 9 yrs older than me And his father never took a belt off to( BEAT) discipline. Him or any of his siblings.
.
I think it's a.big control issue.as another poster said.
My ould lad was (still is) a control freak. With no.understanding of children


I think also that adults had no understanding of children and they had to use force as a control method

He still does not understand children and chooses not to

Maguined

o1s1n wrote: »

All smacking/beating/hitting kids does is tell them violence is a way of solving problems.

I have to disagree, as a child my mother would hit me with a wooden spoon if I was extremely disobedient. Violence was not all I learned. I learned my mother would first try and reason with me, if I was being the petulent child I was and continued to be irrational she would try to reason with me again and only after repeated failure from me to be reasonable would she resort to the wooden spoon. It taught me to be reasonable and rational.

I also learned a greater respect for violence. By experiencing how much I disliked getting the wooden spoon it meant I was far more empathetic and considerate to other kids growing up as I quickly learned I did not want to make others feel like I did when I was being disciplined.

I do not believe you have to physically discipline a child in order for it to learn correctly but I also do not believe moderate physical discipline is inherently wrong and a child cannot learn from it either.

o1s1n wrote: »

As yourself a couple of questions;

If smacking/hitting is a legitimate tool to teach and control your child (and there are no other reasonable options) then how does a teacher control a class of 15-30 children?
If you heard a teacher smacked your child in school, how would you react?

When I went to school it was simply a matter of "I'll tell your parents" and that threat was enough as the fear of my parents reprimanding me was always greater than some teacher. Though I do not think the comparison is valid as a parent has a different relationship to a teacher. There would be many situations and scenarios that I believe a parent should be able to do that a teacher cannot.

marcmc5

mariaalice wrote: »

It was not abuse at the time but it would be now because we have changed culturally and legally in our attitudes towards children.

My husband sums it up this way, there was corporal punishment when he was in school but it was equally applied to everyone and was sanctioned by society, so neither the student or teacher saw it as abuse, yet today it would be considered assault by the teacher on the student, so the era and the culture in which it took decides if it is abuse or not.

I'm not so sure if that's the case to be honest. Corporal punishment is very much a cultural thing in that there are certain countries where it is permissible and would not be frowned on as much as it is in Ireland. Just look at the southern states in the US where the paddle is still used in a lot of schools. Culture is certainly a factor in that some societies don't see the harm in it but time isn't really.

Personally I didn't see getting the belt from my father in the 70's as abuse and to be honest I don't now either 30/40 years later. The belt would come off when I misbehaved I maybe got five or six smacks with it on the clothed behind and it was forgotten about. I don't resent my father at all for taking the strap to me

mariaalice

monflat wrote: »

Yes I understand that but. When a young innocent child is screaming for the adult to stop and the adult.not listening to the child
The fact that they might be hurting them in any way was not considered.

Also my husband is 9 yrs older than me And his father never took a belt off to( BEAT) discipline. Him or any of his siblings.
.
I think it's a.big control issue.as another poster said.
My ould lad was (still is) a control freak. With no.understanding of children


I think also that adults had no understanding of children and they had to use force as a control method

He still does not understand children and chooses not to

The control thing is different and is often the basis for all kinds of abuse not just of children but of partners as well, the need to control like that is often connected to a twisted way of getting respect which is lacking from the rest of the persons life, sometimes it lack of self esteem or maybe a mental health issue.

Philo Beddoe

If I had a Euro for every time an angry, unpleasant person with tendencies towards violence told me that corporal punishment never did him/her any harm...well put it this way, if I was to start handing out those Euros to pleasant, well-adjusted people who told me the same thing, I would be significantly in the black.

mariaalice

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

If I had a Euro for every time an angry, unpleasant person with tendencies towards violence told me that corporal punishment never did him/her any harm...well put it this way, if I was to start handing out those Euros to pleasant, well-adjusted people who told me the same thing, I would be significantly in the black.

Its not as simple as that, its often the opinion that it did no real harm, however they would not smack their own children and they do think its wrong.

The opinion of something being wrong and something being harmful are not interchangeable.

Maguined

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

If I had a Euro for every time an angry, unpleasant person with tendencies towards violence told me that corporal punishment never did him/her any harm...well put it this way, if I was to start handing out those Euros to pleasant, well-adjusted people who told me the same thing, I would be significantly in the black.

If I had a Euro for every time I have been in public with an absolute brat of a child throwing a tantrum while hitting or climbing over other people while the parent weakly pleads to the child over and over to not act that way I would also have a fortune.

professore

What about a child hitting / biting / kicking his parents and/or other children? There seems to be an acceptance of that nowadays too that was not there before. I still think there is a case for limited use of corporal punishment when all else fails.

In my experience any bullies I knew were the ones who NEVER got any form of corporal punishment themselves and were little angels in their parents eyes. This seems to agree with me:

http://nobullying.com/portrait-and-profile-of-a-bully/

marcmc5

I think this is one of those issues that people will always differ on in opinion. I don't think it's a fair statement though that everyone who was raised on corporal punishment was abused. I also don't feel that it's fair when adults say "it did me no harm" to negate their opinion and say that a lot of people with this mindset are now violent, aggressive etc etc.
People are very quick at generalising and throwing out terms like abuse, violence etc. In my home the belt and the wooden spoon were discipline not abuse and believe what you want but I am better off for having received it.

Pawwed Rig

Maguined wrote: »

I have to disagree, as a child my mother would hit me with a wooden spoon if I was extremely disobedient. Violence was not all I learned. I learned my mother would first try and reason with me, if I was being the petulent child I was and continued to be irrational she would try to reason with me again and only after repeated failure from me to be reasonable would she resort to the wooden spoon. It taught me to be reasonable and rational.

While I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would hit my little boy or any other child I understand the argument for and against corporal punishment. The way your mother did the corporal punishment is in a controlled manner designed to teach rather than others where the parent loses the rag and comes in swinging.
I would have been hit with the wooden spoon as a child too. It never taught me anything other than the unfairness of indiscriminate punishment and a slight resentment.
If a parent is to use corporal punishment against their children it should be in a measured and controlled situation. That said there is enough knowledge available to even the poorest person to teach themselves how to effectively manage children without violence. Many choose not to seek these methods.

monflat

mariaalice wrote: »

The control thing is different and is often the basis for all kinds of abuse not just of children but of partners as well, the need to control like that is often connected to a twisted way of getting respect which is lacking from the rest of the persons life, sometimes it lack of self esteem or maybe a mental health issue.

Well I would not say the control issue was different in my case anyway
My father had massive control issues still does.
But that does not mean that by him being physically abusive is excusable because he was controlling.

Getting confused now!!!

marcmc5

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

While I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would hit my little boy or any other child I understand the argument for and against corporal punishment. The way your mother did the corporal punishment is in a controlled manner designed to teach rather than others where the parent loses the rag and comes in swinging.
I would have been hit with the wooden spoon as a child too. It never taught me anything other than the unfairness of indiscriminate punishment and a slight resentment.
If a parent is to use corporal punishment against their children it should be in a measured and controlled situation. That said there is enough knowledge available to even the poorest person to teach themselves how to effectively manage children without violence. Many choose not to seek these methods.

It really goes back to the law of the land which allows for reasonable chastisement of children but the big question is what constitutes reasonable in my opinion may be excessive to another person.
I do agree with you that if corporal punishment is to be used it should be administered in a measured controlled manner. When I was punished by my father as a child it certainly wasn't fun but I was never afraid of him, I didn't live under the threat of being beaten and I loved and respected him a lot, still do

pwurple

professore wrote: »

What about a child hitting / biting / kicking his parents and/or other children? There seems to be an acceptance of that nowadays too that was not there before. I still think there is a case for limited use of corporal punishment when all else fails.

Two very different things IMHO. I never tolerate that behaviour from children. If mine hits someone at a playground or anywhere in public, they are taken away from the situation straight away. I've never allowed that. It has only happened twice I think, and not in a very long time. No child likes to be taken out of a playground over to the bench for misbehaving, they learn fairly sharpish what is acceptable.

Same at home.

I find that some parents are completely self-absorbed these days. On their phone or other device, or looking at something in a shop, or stuck into ordering a posh coffee while their child is bored out of their tree and starts misbehaving. They don't even see it happening.

It's nothing to do with how often the child is being smacked.

eviltwin

I was hit as a child for every little thing, never with items like a belt or wooden spoon, never beaten with fists but I ended up in hospital a few times because my parent under estimated their own power over a child of my size. It was horrible and while I was a good kid it was because I was terrified of the consequences of being naughty. Its turned me the opposite way, I hate seeing kids being smacked now and haven't smacked my own. I don't think parents need to but we live in a culture where its okay to do it so we've never really explored any alternatives. You can't just tell a parent who knows no other way of discipline to stop smacking and take it from there, they need to be taught another way.

Galwayguy35

I was never hit at home, but I was hit by teachers, and I wasn't alone it was common in our school, and I suspect in many schools.

DazMarz

I was born in 1988, at the beginning of a real, true "Renaissance" in Ireland. The modernisation and progression that the end of the 80's and the start of the 90's brought in to Ireland was staggering. Consider the differences in those 10 short years between 1989 and 1999 in Ireland. Divorce, homosexuality, contraception, loosening restrictions on everything. It was all part of a progression and "civilising" of Irish society.

This was deeply evident in how people disciplined their children. Tales of corporal punishment (and beyond that, to just sheer outright abuse) still pepper the childhood memories of many people born from the early-80's and on back.

The levels of violence meted out to children varied, from virtually non-existent, to beatings that required hospitalisation (or worse). Regardless, I am firmly of the belief that all of it is wrong. No child should ever be smacked, beaten or otherwise by someone who is stronger, bigger and more mentally mature than they are.

Children are the smallest, most vulnerable, weakest and most dependent members of society. They need protection, nurturing, warmth, love and, yes, discipline. But not discipline delivered with the fist, the belt or any other form of violence.

One of the most vivid memories I have from being disciplined as a child happened when I was 8.

I remember once getting hit on the soles of my feet with a leather belt by my grandfather. Apparently he lost patience with me for not sitting on the couch. I was lying, stomach down on the couch, with my feet soles-up in the air. Apparently he was afraid I'd break the arm of the couch (it was wooden, and my feet were swinging close to it). My grandmother wasn't in the room at the time.

He said nothing more, and I heard movement behind me. What I felt next was up there with the most excruciating pains I've ever felt. My legs were grabbed and I felt as if my feet were on fire as slap after slap of a leather belt rained down on the (bare) soles of my feet.

I was 8 years old. I screamed and I cried in pain and shock. This, naturally, brought my grandmother running to see what was wrong. She didn't speak to my grandfather for a week after it. I wasn't able to walk without a limp for a few days. My grandmother begged me not to tell my parents what had happened. She was afraid they would stop me from coming to their house.

I never did tell my parents what happened. Never told anyone really. My grandfather did apologise a few days after. He never told me why he reacted so badly. If he'd shouted or simply given me a more forceful warning, I would have done as he said.

I wasn't "traumatised" or "scarred" or anything of the sorts by this incident. But I'll never forget it. Probably because it was such an isolated incident of being hit as a kid is why I can remember it. That, the ferocity and the pain of it.

I did get the odd "skelp" as a child. Who didn't? That doesn't justify it, at all. But I was never beaten or physically abused. I did hate the wooden spoon, though. I got the odd hit of that. So much so did I hate the dreaded wooden spoon, I once put it in the washing machine, set it to a full wash and spin cycle and left it. Succeeded in breaking both spoon and washing machine. Amazingly, I escaped major censure for that incident.

I feel that if I ever have kids of my own, I will never, ever raise my hand to them. I would never be able to forgive myself if I did. I'm not a violent person anyway, but I would never be able to look at myself the same way again if I hit or hurt the person/people whom you are supposed to love, protect and nurture above all others (ie. your own children).

Yes, kids need to be disciplined! There's nothing worse than a bunch of spoiled, ruined little brats who get away with holy murder. Actually, there is something worse. The kids who are too terrified to do anything because they might get beaten for it. The only thing worse than an undisciplined child is an overly-harsh disciplined child. Let kids be kids, but make sure there are boundaries and that they respect those boundaries. Punish bad behaviour, but not with violence. Violence never solved anything. Especially not when it's used against helpless, defenceless children.

I love kids. I think they're the coolest people (most of them anyway). I hate to see kids upset or hurt. I really want to have kids of my own some day (having little nephews and nieces isn't enough!). I have these daydreams sometimes of really idealised stuff; coaxing my little son/daughter into taking their first steps, taking them to their first day of school, their first trip to Croke Park to cheer on Dublin, their first trip to Stamford Bridge to see the mighty Blues, reading them stories at night, etc. I know it's all idealised (and neatly leaves out the shítty nappies, never getting to lie on again, no money, no nice car and all that), but it just makes me long to have kids sometimes.

All that adds up to this; no matter how angry or frustrated I'll get, I'd never be able to raise a hand in anger against someone I love. Especially not the people that you will always and forever love and adore: your children.

lazybones32

marcmc5 wrote: »

Just having a discussion about the methods our parents would have used to punish growing up. In the 1970s it was fairly common practice for fathers to use the belt on their kids yet today you would find yourself in hot water for punishing in this way. What do men think? Does it work? Is it good discipline or just abuse?

Discipline? It was never used as a corrective tool at home - just a punishment. Before long, the crack of the belt didn't even hurt but you'd cry anyway...as if it was your part to play in the drama.

I remember in school a substitute teacher doled out proper corporal punishment, as opposed to the ass-kicking that was the norm, and he brought everyone into line without going anywhere near overboard. A swipe of a sideways ruler onto the knuckles...The Class was as quiet as could be after the third fella got his medicine but the sub was obviously mental and just kept repeating "An baid Matthew".

Actions have consequences. The sooner you learn this, the better.

Stheno

lazybones32 wrote: »

Discipline? It was never used as a corrective tool at home - just a punishment. Before long, the crack of the belt didn't even hurt

.

Agreed.

Bamboo cane was the weapon of choice when I was a kid, those hurt!

lazybones32

Stings for ages...