How should Palestine defend itself?

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Electronic Intifada, really?

Did I post something from that site?

You might get back to me on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91555650&postcount=311

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

...............

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.

Do please outline what these "other means" are.

Sand

Nodin wrote: »

Did I post something from that site?

You might get back to me on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91555650&postcount=311

Sorry Nodin, I've a fairly low tolerance for repetitive one line posts that take the form of a question. We should be having a discussion, I am not sitting an interview. So I must admit, I've been ignoring a lot of your comments as they fall below the minimum threshold for me to spend time responding to them.

Rightwing

A rather handy way out.

Chuckle chuckle.

esteve

Sand wrote: »

Sorry Nodin, I've a fairly low tolerance for repetitive one line posts that take the form of a question. We should be having a discussion, I am not sitting an interview. So I must admit, I've been ignoring a lot of your comments as they fall below the minimum threshold for me to spend time responding to them.

Wow, just wow.

You have avoided some questions of my own, or points of my own, cos how did you put it..'too much noise'. Or maybe cos i called you a name or something.

alastair

Sand wrote: »

The Israelis do have the psychological and political means to win a long war. They've certainly been winning the long war over the last 66 years.

Honestly lads, wakeup. Think.

Israel has been particularly poor on the long war. Given the opportunities wasted following on from Oslo by the antics of Sharon and Netanyahu, they're still painted into the corner where the only options open to them are a single state solution that kills off any chance of a future for a Jewish State, reconciling statehood for a Palestine that has Hamas as a government partner (a Hamas that Israel is partially responsible for fostering initially, and subsequently provided ample fuel to fan the fires of their support), or continuing a policy of illegal occupation, siege, oppression, and fostering new generations of threat to their state. Not a great record there.

Sand

Rightwing wrote: »

A rather handy way out.

Chuckle chuckle.

Well, I've two choices. Either respond to one line posts with a one line response, which would be flippant. Or not respond to them. I choose (mostly) not to respond to them.

@esteve

Wow, just wow.

You have avoided some questions of my own, or points of my own, cos how did you put it..'too much noise'. Or maybe cos i called you a name or something.

You're catching on. As I said before, you get more out me responding to your posts than I get from responding to yours. I don't have you on ignore though so if or when you post something interesting I might respond to it. Though I don't actually read your posts...so I wouldn't hold my breath.

esteve

Sand wrote: »

You're catching on. As I said before, you get more out me responding to your posts than I get from responding to yours. I don't have you on ignore though so if or when you post something interesting I might respond to it. Though I don't actually read your posts...so I wouldn't hold my breath.

So you don't engage in debate with me and pick and choose what you read on the issue and expect people to believe you are informed on the topic and not biased. You were only the other day quoting the Israel PR machine as a viable source.

I have asked you numerous questions regarding the issue and made some points but as you said, you simply ignore them. How can one take anything you post on here seriously if that is your stance?

Look i am so sorry for offending you personally the last time, now can we please debate the issue and just move on, this is not school.

esteve

Sand wrote: »

if or when you post something interesting I might respond to it..... Though I don't actually read your posts...

Im in a bit of a catch 22 here with you Sand. If i post something interesting you may engage me, but you do not read my posts so im at ends to understand how this works and how you will read what i post. Are these your rules of the forum (it must be interesting)? If that's the case then go set up your own webpage.

What i post does not have to be interesting to you or anybody, it has to be factual and on topic. I have made a few factual points that you simple ignored because they were not 'interesting'. Some level of debating skills there, god your credibility is just shining through here.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

Sorry Nodin, I've a fairly low tolerance for repetitive one line posts that take the form of a question. We should be having a discussion, I am not sitting an interview. So I must admit, I've been ignoring a lot of your comments as they fall below the minimum threshold for me to spend time responding to them.

Did I post something from the "Electronic Intifada" site?

Why do you keep talking about Gaza as if it represents the total of Palestinian politics?

Sand wrote:

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of
humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.

Do please outline what these "other means" are.

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

Did I post something from the "Electronic Intifada" site?

Why do you keep talking about Gaza as if it represents the total of Palestinian politics?


Do please outline what these "other means" are.

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.
Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.
Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

Rightwing

obplayer wrote: »

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.
Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.
Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

Is this for real ? :rolleyes:

Tanks would drive over them. Bombs would land on their skulls. A 4 year infant could tell you that.

esteve

obplayer wrote: »

Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.

Already happening, you should join one, people from all walks of life attend.

obplayer wrote: »

Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.

Pregnant Palestinian women who are about to give birth have been held at checkpoints and not allowed past. Numerous reports of babies and mothers dying in the backs of cars/ambulances because they were not allowed through checkpoints.

obplayer wrote: »

Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.

I could imagine a group of Palestinians blocking Israeli traffic. They are already arrested for protesting and held without any rights.

obplayer wrote: »

Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

What Ghandi did was incredible, but the British Government were ready to negotiate and make concessions. Again, Hamas is not Palestine, Palestine is not Hamas.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera..

That's been going on for many years.

Trying to walk through a checkpoint will result in beating, detention or death.

obplayer wrote: »

Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic...

Going near a settler only road in the OT is the equivalent of deciding to become a suicide bomber without a bomb. And nobody outside of we usual suspects will give a crap.

obplayer wrote: »

Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
...........

...such as?

shewasdiesel

obplayer wrote: »

Other means are for instance...
Continuing protests around the world at the conditions the Palestinians are living in.
Palestinians who are clearly un-armed attempting to walk through checkpoints and blockades on camera.
Where possible sit-down protests to block movement of Israeli traffic.
Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to.
There are many others, read what Ghandi did. What Ghandi did not do was write a charter calling for the annihilation of Britain or the killing of every Brit in India.

Hamas would never alllow it, it would not suit their agenda in the slightest.

The SDLP tried this in NI and SF very successfully succeeded in destroying them and intimidating anyone who openly supported the SDLP and peaceful means.

Nodin

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Hamas would never alllow it, it would not suit their agenda in the slightest.
The SDLP tried this in NI and SF succeeded in destroying them and intimidating anyone who openly supported them.

....there's rather more to the whole thing than Gaza and Hamas.

shewasdiesel

Nodin wrote: »

....there's rather more to the whole thing than Gaza and Hamas.

Of course there is, but somehow, I don't think your one liner, or any post in this thread, will succeeded in covering it either.

Rightwing

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Of course there is, but somehow, I don't think your one liner, or any post in this thread, will succeeded in covering it either.

But asking a punter to sit on a road blocking Israeli traffic is akin to asking a jew sit on the road in Nazi Germany.

Ranks as the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read fairly dumb things.

Nodin

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Of course there is, but somehow, I don't think your one liner, or any post in this thread, will succeeded in covering it either.

No idea what that's supposed to mean. There's been a radically different strategy pursued in the West Bank for many years now, yet you and others seem fixated on Hamas and Gaza.

shewasdiesel

Rightwing wrote: »

But asking a punter to sit on a road blocking Israeli traffic is akin to asking a jew sit on the road in Nazi Germany.

Ranks as the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read fairly dumb things.

Then perhaps you'd be a bit smarter and direct that at the people advocating it

Rightwing

shewasdiesel wrote: »

Then perhaps you be a bit smarter and direct that at the people advocating it

Done earlier.

shewasdiesel

Nodin wrote: »

No idea what that's supposed to mean. There's been a radically different strategy pursued in the West Bank for many years now, yet you and others seem fixated on Hamas and Gaza.

Hamas is in charge of Gaza, and Gaza is where the majority of innocent people are currently being killed by Israel. This is not a "fixation", it's current affairs. Everyone is aware the overall issue is much much wider than just one region, surely the blinding obvious doesn't need to be re-stated by every poster in every single post.

obplayer

Rightwing wrote: »

But asking a punter to sit on a road blocking Israeli traffic is akin to asking a jew sit on the road in Nazi Germany.

Ranks as the dumbest thing I've ever read. And I've read fairly dumb things.

Well if a peaceful group of protestors were to sit down and block traffic and were then 'run over by tanks' you would at least have a major PR victory, wouldn't you? And as for it being the 'dumbest thing I've ever read', how about this....
We have tried a particular strategy for decades and it has brought nothing but increasing grief for our people. Let's keep doing it!

Rightwing

obplayer wrote: »

Well if a peaceful group of protestors were to sit down and block traffic and were then 'run over by tanks' you would at least have a major PR victory, wouldn't you? And as for it being the 'dumbest thing I've ever read', how about this....
We have tried a particular strategy for decades and it has brought nothing but increasing grief for our people. Let's keep doing it!

The graveyard is full of heroes. The Israelis simply wouldn't care, 'we've knocked a few more today' type thinking.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

..........Negotiations for deals which have a realistic chance of being agreed to..........

What would these be?

mufflets2

Sand wrote:

@mufflets2

"Careful - I'm happy to discuss points of view with people but I need to see something interesting or mildly insightful in the response. Emotional posts all full of noise and no signal I wont respond to."
.

Thanks for the advice however
carefully not to overestimate the importance of your "response"

sand wrote:

its ironic that you keep on going on about this arm chair thing. Google the phrase "England will fight to the last American". Then consider my statement that people are calling for the fight to go on to the last Palestinian.


Then consider, (from your armchair perhaps) why fanatical commitment to militant action from...ooh 4,076 kilometres away, whilst the Palestinians have to actually take the hits and losses that result from that militant action is problematic. Facebook post likes, and plastering photos of their dead kids, and so on doesn't actually help them - but I'm sure it makes people 4,076 KM away feel good and righteous. Which is what is important for them, I guess.

Any friend of the Palestinian people - indeed anyone with an ounce of humanity in them - should be calling for peace and discouraging militant action that can not lead to any success and can only lead to untold misery for the Palestinian people. It's important to stress - peace does not mean surrender. It means continuing the conflict by other means.[/Careful - I'm happy to discuss points of view with people but I need to see something interesting or mildly insightful in the response. Emotional posts all full of noise and no signal I wont respond to..

Again you have nothing to add as to what you believe Hamas should be doing better. But are happy to criticise.

Peace is not everything, peace means living in misery to the Palestinians ,as has been pointed out previously there are many gains to be made through seemingly futile resistance (GOP 1916)

Unfortunately the Israelis do not listen to reason only violence and the world is not moved by letter writing but by sacrifice , I really wish that it were not this way and would be genuinely interested to hear what you recommend the Palestinians/ Hamas do better

Assuming that you have an opinion on this and are not just criticising to be part of the discussion.


P.S
I see that Israel have hit another UN hospital.

Anyway
What were we discussing again
What Better tactics should Hamas be using or what did they say wrong , now.

Sand

Rightwing wrote: »

Tanks would drive over them. Bombs would land on their skulls. A 4 year infant could tell you that.

So it couldn't be any worse than the current strategy? A strategy that cant lead to any worse a result, and could actually lead to better results is a better strategy.

@shewasdiesel

Hamas would never alllow it, it would not suit their agenda in the slightest.

True, and Hamas would be able to apply a veto at any time by carrying out rocket attacks which would likely induce a predictable Israeli response. Unless they were stopped by Palestinian forces - violently if necessary. That would pose immense challenges for the Palestinian leadership.

@Nodin

No idea what that's supposed to mean.

I think it means you shouldn't criticise others for not covering the length and breath of the conflict to your satisfaction in their posts when your own posts tend to be 1 sentence long.

@mufflets

Peace is not everything, peace means living in misery to the Palestinians ,as has been pointed out previously there are many gains to be made through seemingly futile resistance (GOP 1916)

I think your fervent commitment to violence as an unsuccessful strategy would be more admirable if you were 4,076 KM closer to Gaza.

Hamas's militant strategy is a failure. Everyone acknowledges that it can only result in failure, that Hamas has no chance in a conflict with the IDF. And the cost of the violence is paid in the deaths and injuries to Palestinian civilians whose interests Hamas *ought* to be prioritising. So you're essentially calling for the continuation of a strategy which has seen the Palestinians driven back from the 1967 borders, boxed up in ghettos in Gaza and the West Bank, and causes misery for the Palestinian people as Hamas engages in its futile rocket attacks?

Again, I have to ask - you are Pro-Palestinian right?

Rightwing

Sand wrote: »

So it couldn't be any worse than the current strategy? A strategy that cant lead to any worse a result, and could actually lead to better results is a better strategy.

Well it could. Because if somebody is sitting on the middle of a road, blocking traffic, one could make the argument that they were in a stupid place and invited trouble on themselves.

Whereas if the same individuals are a young family in UN shelter and you get hit by a missile, there is absolutely nothing you could have done to avoid it. That's the key reason why the world is so outraged.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

So it couldn't be(...........)nian right?

If you'd be good enough to get back to me
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91563609&postcount=341

esteve

Rightwing wrote: »

Whereas if the same individuals are a young family in UN shelter and you get hit by a missile, there is absolutely nothing you could have done to avoid it. That's the key reason why the world is so outraged.

But the logic being pursued here is that Hamas through its strategy are wholly responsible for that missile being fired on a UN shelter/school. For some reason Israel, who fire the rockets, are being taken out of this whole equation and are allowed to act with complete impunity while Hamas/Palestine are completely culpable. It is so illogical it makes my head hurt.

Apparently its Hamas' strategy that have led to Palestinian land shrinking in size since 1967, even though Hamas only came into existence in the 1980's. For some reason unbeknownst to me Israeli strategy has nothing to do with it. If this is the level of debate we are currently at, Palestinians really have no chance.