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Formula 1 2014: Round 11 - Hungarian Grand Prix

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    #242
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    Hamilton has to be a strong favourite now.

    Hmm not so sure. Hamilton is his own worst enemy at times. Long way to go yet, & Nico definitely has the upper hand when it comes to mentality.


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    #243
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Don't forget, Hamilton couldn't get past Alonso despite DRS (and none for Alonso) and a power advantage and Alonso being 5 seconds off the pace...


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    #244
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Don't forget, Hamilton couldn't get past Alonso despite DRS (and none for Alonso) and a power advantage and Alonso being 5 seconds off the pace...

    Aren't you forgetting about Lewis having prime tires near 30 laps old there?


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    #245
    Frankie Lee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭Frankie Lee


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Hmm not so sure. Hamilton is his own worst enemy at times. Long way to go yet, & Nico definitely has the upper hand when it comes to mentality.

    Just checked and Hamilton is a slight favourite, this race will have to be a turning point and Hamilton's confidence will be up now.


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    #246
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    One thing that can be agreed is that it was a terrible drive by Rosberg, he particularly showed a lack of balls when stuck behind Vergne. He needs to take chances if he is to win the WDC, Hamilton has to be a strong favourite now.

    What's strange about that is how timid he was behind Jev, but how brave he was passing Raikonnen.

    I disagree that Hamilton is a strong favourite. If anything, they're still level. Rosberg has had consistency on his side, whcih has left him 11 points ahead. But Hamilton has had more wins, and has the ability for more wins, which means he's only 11 points behind.


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    #247
    Infoanon
    Registered Users Posts: 4,637 ✭✭✭Infoanon


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    One thing that can be agreed is that it was a terrible drive by Rosberg, he particularly showed a lack of balls when stuck behind Vergne. He needs to take chances if he is to win the WDC, Hamilton has to be a strong favourite now.

    Did he not hit brake issues after the first safety car ?

    Unfortunately I fear the WDC will end in controversy over double points.


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    #248
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭GTE


    Myrddin wrote: »
    I dunno, it helped plenty of other drivers make passes today.
    You should know that there were a lot of different tyre strategies going on with a range of different quality power units being used. The latter has been the case all year.

    Myrddin wrote: »
    I know :) It stalls the rear wing, reducing drag & thus allowing the car using it to have faster straight line speed. It's an advantage for cars behind, & eliminates a scenario where cars are stuck behind rivals for lap after lap due to 'dirty air'.
    Cool definition, but the point I think you missed is that the DRS was not as effective at doing its job as some of the other "press and pass" tracks. This makes the need for a team order exceptionally important.
    Myrddin wrote: »
    Ah, the key question then. Why ask a driver near the end of a stint to be let by if he was coming in soon anyway?
    Simple, if he gains a few seconds because if it, it is a few seconds advantage he has against the competition.

    Myrddin wrote: »
    As I said above, it was a silly call & a type that hurts the image of teams. It seemed an over-reaction, & Coulthard himself even thought it was madness. If Rosberg didn't make the request for Lewis to be moved over then fair enough, but getting annoyed behind him & radioing in twice asking why he wasn't letting him go is really naive at this level.

    That is hardly reasonable and I doubt you can substantiate it. If the team says that something is going to happen to make your strategy work, then you can't expect Rosberg to be happy that it didnt. He needs to know what is going on.

    This is all in the context of Rosberg and Hamilton not racing each other and trying to make their own races work. It was during that short section of the race that the tyre situation changed and Merc realised that they were actually going to be racing each other. Before that, it is not the case so no one can really make a case against the team order when the understanding beforehand was that their races were independent of each other.


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    #249
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Infoanon wrote: »
    Did he not hit brake issues after the first safety car ?

    Yeah they told him to move the bias forwards didn't they? There was something smoking from the rear left at one stage but seemed to clear up. Maybe the bias adjustment fixed it or maybe it was just something rubbing that wore away
    Unfortunately I fear the WDC will end in controversy over double points.

    I really, really hope not.


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    #250
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭GTE


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Aren't you forgetting about Lewis having prime tires near 30 laps old there?

    Irrelevant, they were both falling off the track due to tyre deg.


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    #251
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Aren't you forgetting about Lewis having prime tires near 30 laps old there?

    Hamilton had 29 lap old Primes on L67, Alonso had 33 lap old Option son the same lap. Hamilton should have been able to pass.


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    #252
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭GTE


    _rebelkid wrote: »

    If you were watching Sky's coverage, they spoke to CHarlie Whiting about just that. The DRS is most effective if you are within 0.3s of the car in front. That is due to the DRS zones being 700m long, which will translate to the cars being side by side at the end of the zone. But, the DRS zone at Hungary is 610m long, which is why there is a second zone straight after. So the point of DRS in Hungary is mainly for the entry into T2. Rosberg was quite close there a few times, so the DRS is actually quite effective there.

    That is not in dispute, the main point is that with the cars being of the same team (quite even - could go as far to say that its more down to the powerunits) and the track not being a press and pass style of DRS that you can have elsewhere, plus how close Rosberg was to the end of his stint, the perception that Rosberg should have easily been able to pass is not all that well founded. The team order was just so he was not held up in the closing stages of the stint.


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    #253
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    bbk wrote: »
    You should know that there were a lot of different tyre strategies going on with a range of different quality power units being used. The latter has been the case all year.

    Different strategies like the way Lewis & Nico were on primes & options at the time? Lewis said he's let Nico pass if Nico could get closer but he couldn't...was Lewis supposed to physically slow if his car down & let his nearest rival overtake him half way through a title race?
    Cool definition, but the point I think you missed is that the DRS was not as effective at doing its job as some of the other "press and pass" tracks. This makes the need for a team order exceptionally important.

    Not as effective I grant, but the first zone sets up the second zone nicely so it was by far & away still an advantage to have DRS over not having it don't you think?
    Simple, if he gains a few seconds because if it, it is a few seconds advantage he has against the competition.

    A few seconds advantage would have seen Nico ahead of Lewis at the end...ok maybe they didn't know this at the time but after Silverstone I can see why Lewis was taking no chances. Again from a championship fighting perspective, Lewis made the right call. He disobeyed a team order, something done before by others that was supported. It was a team order that even the team admit they got wrong, Lauda admitted it was wrong, & Coulthard as commentator said was wrong. I'm with those lads :)
    That is hardly reasonable and I doubt you can substantiate it. If the team says that something is going to happen to make your strategy work, then you can't expect Rosberg to be happy that it didnt. He needs to know what is going on.

    I wouldn't expect him to be happy about it, but he was asked to get closer & didn't seem able to. Again, is Lewis supposed to put the brakes on to allow the pass? I don't think he'd be fighting for titles if he was of that mind tbh.


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    #254
    Gillespy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭Gillespy


    _rebelkid wrote: »
    Hamilton had 29 lap old Primes on L67, Alonso had 33 lap old Option son the same lap. Hamilton should have been able to pass.
    If Hamilton had any rubber he would have cleared Alonso no problem. They were both sitting ducks, we saw how Ricciardo dispatched them. I think Alonso said the Options were an advantage to him even after that number of laps in keeping Hamilton at bay.


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    #255
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    bbk wrote: »
    Irrelevant, they were both falling off the track due to tyre deg.
    _rebelkid wrote: »
    Hamilton had 29 lap old Primes on L67, Alonso had 33 lap old Option son the same lap. Hamilton should have been able to pass.

    How long was Alonso in clean air for again?
    bbk wrote: »
    That is not in dispute, the main point is that with the cars being of the same team (quite even - could go as far to say that its more down to the powerunits) and the track not being a press and pass style of DRS that you can have elsewhere, plus how close Rosberg was to the end of his stint, the perception that Rosberg should have easily been able to pass is not all that well founded. The team order was just so he was not held up in the closing stages of the stint.

    Nico should have been able to pass Lewis though. Two DRS zones, option tires...doesn't seem so unreasonable to do if he was faster?


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    #256
    GTE
    Registered Users Posts: 3,911 ✭✭✭GTE


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Different strategies like the way Lewis & Nico were on primes & options at the time? Lewis said he's let Nico pass if Nico could get closer but he couldn't...was Lewis supposed to physically slow if his car down & let his nearest rival overtake him half way through a title race?

    You have said that quite a few times, but that still isn't relevant to the requirement for the team order. If I remember correctly, the first lap or two that Rosberg was closing, there would have been minimal time loss, but still some for Lewis. The next few laps, the gap was larger as Merc changed strategies.

    Myrddin wrote: »
    Not as effective I grant, but the first zone sets up the second zone nicely so it was by far & away still an advantage to have DRS over not having it don't you think?
    That is beside the original point being made that the DRS should have allowed for an easy pass by Rosberg. It simply didn't and importantly couldn't at that stage with all things considered.

    Myrddin wrote: »
    A few seconds advantage would have seen Nico ahead of Lewis at the end...ok maybe they didn't know this at the time but after Silverstone I can see why Lewis was taking no chances. Again from a championship fighting perspective, Lewis made the right call. He disobeyed a team order, something done before by others that was supported. It was a team order that even the team admit they got wrong, Lauda admitted it was wrong, & Coulthard as commentator said was wrong. I'm with those lads :)

    At the time, it would not have seen Rosberg ahead of Lewis. I think this is the bit you don't get. At the time, with Rosberg closing in on Lewis, Merc were satisfied that Lewis could push to the end on his set of tyres and Rosberg could pit and finish behind. What they needed was every second possible to allow Rosberg to cover off that 4th place. Merc had a slow car in the dry with their downforce setting, which is why Rosberg was flying in the wet. Lewis should have had at least third place done and dusted, but the tyre understanding changed.

    What they learned in the middle of the team order issue was that Lewis hadn't a chance of making it to the end safely. Arguably, if Merc were on the ball with the understanding of the tyres they should have pitted Rosberg a bit earlier.

    Myrddin wrote: »
    I wouldn't expect him to be happy about it, but he was asked to get closer & didn't seem able to. Again, is Lewis supposed to put the brakes on to allow the pass? I don't think he'd be fighting for titles if he was of that mind tbh.
    He wasn't asked by anyone to do that, he was told to expect to see Lewis let him by.

    As you say, from a championship perspective, Lewis made the right call but that call was made at a time where Merc thought Hamilton was safely ahead of Rosberg when you take the pit stop in hand into account. It shows how quickly things can change, but it is very important not to let the two different stages of the race influence the reality of the previous part.


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    #257
    Slutmonkey57b
    Registered Users Posts: 5,559 ✭✭✭Slutmonkey57b


    I think it's fair to say that if the team need a driver to move over in order to make a strategy work, then they've got the right to make that call. However, the drivers need to make their own strategies work too.

    Rosberg should have got past JEV a lot earlier, and they should have pitted him earlier when he couldn't (and a lap or so earlier on his last stint).

    However, apparently the safety car came out in the middle of the pack to pick up Rosberg instead of waiting for the field to pass, which affected who was able to duck into the pits. If Rosberg had pitted first (as was his right, really), then he would never have been in that situation.

    What was more telling for me was that yet again, when catching up to Lewis at the end of the race with a faster car, Rosberg chooses to make a well-telegraphed attempt to pass in an obvious place, too late in the race. That's a lack of judgement he's going to have to deal with if he's really going to beat Lewis this year.


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    #258
    _rebelkid
    Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭_rebelkid


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    I don't know how people are so gullible to think that Lewis wasn't going to finish anywhere other than the top 5. That Merc could start facing backwards in the pit and still win the race. Its practically a different class car in the grid.

    Realistically, Hamilton was only ever going to be second or first. That being a normal, dry race. With the wet, things can change, so 3rd. As you said, he and Nico were never going to be outside the top five.


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    #259
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Aren't you forgetting about Lewis having prime tires near 30 laps old there?
    He was faster Alonso though. It's not a massive criticism, it's just that because he got caught stuck he couldn't get past, that's what happens and what happened Rosberg too.
    Myrddin wrote: »
    How long was Alonso in clean air for again?
    Hamilton would've been as well if he'd passed Alonso. :P
    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    I don't know how people are so gullible to think that Lewis wasn't going to finish anywhere other than the top 5. That Merc could start facing backwards in the pit and still win the race. Its practically a different class car in the grid.
    Yeah it's silly stuff really. Generally just passing the Marussias and Caterhams will get someone to around 16th. Pick off the non-Mercs and it's up to about the top 10. From there it's just a matter of timing pitstops whether ya need the undercut or if you're faster after the others pit. Hamiltion did a great pass today but there wasn't an awful lot of him cutting through the field, because they don't even need to.


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    #260
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    bbk wrote: »
    You have said that quite a few times, but that still isn't relevant to the requirement for the team order. If I remember correctly, the first lap or two that Rosberg was closing, there would have been minimal time loss, but still some for Lewis. The next few laps, the gap was larger as Merc changed strategies.

    I know this might seem overly simplistic but I grow weary of making the same point....Nico wasn't close enough to pass Lewis out, seems relevant to me dude. You seem to be making the point that Lewis could have let Nico by without losing time...I don't agree. The only wheel to wheel racing Nico & Lewis were engaged in together was in the final lap of the race. If Nico had been that close when the order was made, I think Lewis would have moved over. He wasn't.
    That is beside the original point being made that the DRS should have allowed for an easy pass by Rosberg. It simply didn't and importantly couldn't at that stage with all things considered.

    DRS in conjunction with option tires should have allowed Nico to make the pass on Lewis, without doubt. Yes he was near the end of his stint, I get that, but at the same time, he wasn't close enough to Lewis to pass. The truth is, Nico wasn't impressive at all today & wasted a ton of time behind Vergne, at no point did he look any way 'racy' barring at the very end where he had >3 second a lap advantage. At the time, maybe Hamilton was wrong for not moving over becasue as you rightly point out, at that stage the strategies were not clear & they weren't racing each other...but in hindsight, it was absolutely too much to ask of Lewis. These are racers, & I for one am glad to see drivers thinking for themselves & pushing where possible.
    At the time, it would not have seen Rosberg ahead of Lewis. I think this is the bit you don't get.

    I do get it, at the time no Lewis would have reained position when Nico pitted...but the way things played out it would have seen Nico ahead at the end. Lewis, apart from asking the team to get Nico to close up so he could allow him to pass...didn't seem to want to take any chances after Silverstone...turns out he was spot on.
    At the time, with Rosberg closing in on Lewis, Merc were satisfied that Lewis could push to the end on his set of tyres and Rosberg could pit and finish behind. What they needed was every second possible to allow Rosberg to cover off that 4th place. Merc had a slow car in the dry with their downforce setting, which is why Rosberg was flying in the wet. Lewis should have had at least third place done and dusted, but the tyre understanding changed.

    What they learned in the middle of the team order issue was that Lewis hadn't a chance of making it to the end safely. Arguably, if Merc were on the ball with the understanding of the tyres they should have pitted Rosberg a bit earlier.

    The team & strategy guys got it wrong though. Was Lewis just a bold boy for not obeying an order, is that ultimately the point you are making?
    He wasn't asked by anyone to do that, he was told to expect to see Lewis let him by.

    Lewis said he'd let him by if he got close enough, he didn't/couldn't. There was no wheel to wheel until the very end between these two.
    As you say, from a championship perspective, Lewis made the right call but that call was made at a time where Merc thought Hamilton was safely ahead of Rosberg when you take the pit stop in hand into account. It shows how quickly things can change, but it is very important not to let the two different stages of the race influence the reality of the previous part.

    I'd agree to a point. I took away from it that team orders need to be looked at much more carefully, & issued only when absolutely necessary.


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    #261
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Hamilton would've been as well if he'd passed Alonso. :P

    There was a >17 second gap between Alonso & Ricciardo...that kind of clean air would have helped Alonso with tire management. Hamilton did catch up to Alonso, but I think as he did, the tires 'were dead' as he put it himself.


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    #262
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Myrddin wrote: »
    There was a >17 second gap between Alonso & Ricciardo...that kind of clean air would have helped Alonso with tire management. Hamilton did catch up to Alonso, but I think as he did, they tires 'were dead' as he put it himself.

    Didn't think he said they were dead until Alonso had already been 5 seconds slow for a few laps. However he was on tyres that were meant to be 1-2 seconds a lap faster than Alonso's and in a car that is also 1-2 seconds faster. Once he got caught behind Ricciardo he couldn't break the gap. Same thing happened to Rosberg behind Hamilton. If Alonso hadn't held up Hamilton quite so badly Rosberg could've passHamilton, he just caught him in a bad place on the track which left him stuck again.


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    #263
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Didn't think he said they were dead until Alonso had already been 5 seconds slow for a few laps. However he was on tyres that were meant to be 1-2 seconds a lap faster than Alonso's and in a car that is also 1-2 seconds faster.

    Judging by how long Nico was behind Vergne for, it's not that clear cut. Alonso's tires would have held up better due to the huge amount of clean air he had. Hamilton had Alonso >2 seconds up the road for ages, so this would have hurt him more. I think if Lewis was able to get past Alonso he would have...the grip clearly wasn't there.
    If Alonso hadn't held up Hamilton quite so badly Rosberg could've passHamilton, he just caught him in a bad place on the track which left him stuck again.

    You have me there :confused: If Alonso let Lewis through then Rosberg would have caught Lewis? Surely Alonso backing Lewis up only pushed Lewis towards Nico sooner?


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    #264
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Frankie Lee wrote: »
    One thing that can be agreed is that it was a terrible drive by Rosberg, he particularly showed a lack of balls when stuck behind Vergne. He needs to take chances if he is to win the WDC, Hamilton has to be a strong favourite now.

    Rubbish.


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    #265
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    _rebelkid wrote: »
    Realistically, Hamilton was only ever going to be second or first.

    How's that? He got a MASSIVE advantage from the safety car, his 30 second deficit disappeared and he ended up ahead of Rosberg after the stops, then finished third.

    No way would he have been first or second without the initial safety car.

    Even with all that, he finished third, not first or second.


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    #266
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    How's that? He got a MASSIVE advantage from the safety car

    Some might say it was only fair after his car burned to bits yesterday :D

    Anyway, I love you all, but you're all wrong & I'm right. Good night folks :p:)


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    #267
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    LIGHTNING wrote: »
    I don't know how people are so gullible to think that Lewis wasn't going to finish anywhere other than the top 5. That Merc could start facing backwards in the pit and still win the race. Its practically a different class car in the grid.

    The Williams isn't far off, nor are Red Bull even with the Renault engine. Mercedes are no longer guarantee a one - two when both finish.


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    #268
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Some might say it was only fair after his car burned to bits yesterday :D

    Anyway, I love you all, but you're all wrong & I'm right. Good night folks :p:)

    Sure, but the way some people on this thread are talking, you would hardly even know there had been a safety car and that it was a superhuman drive from Hamilton. In the words of Dunphy, it was a good drive, not a great drive.


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    #269
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Myrddin wrote: »
    Judging by how long Nico was behind Vergne for, it's not that clear cut. Alonso's tires would have held up better due to the huge amount of clean air he had. Hamilton had Alonso >2 seconds up the road for ages, so this would have hurt him more. I think if Lewis was able to get past Alonso he would have...the grip clearly wasn't there.
    I'd be amazed if Alonso had run wide if Hamilton wouldn't have gone 3 seconds clear at least within a lap.
    You have me there :confused: If Alonso let Lewis through then Rosberg would have caught Lewis? Surely Alonso backing Lewis up only pushed Lewis towards Nico sooner?
    "Quite" so badly. Like literally by a few tenths less. Right at the very end before Rosberg caught them Alonso backed Hamilton up and Rosberg caught them at a bad bit of the track. Had it been a few corners later when Rosberg caught he would've had the momentum. Once he lost that impetus he wasn't going to be able to do it.


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    #270
    Gillespy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,222 ✭✭✭Gillespy


    Arthur Beesley wrote: »
    The Williams isn't far off, nor are Red Bull even with the Renault engine. Mercedes are no longer guarantee a one - two when both finish.
    They aren't anywhere near the Mercs. Easy .5 second in qualifying and what lead did Rosberg have before the safety car? He just disappeared. Martin Brundle commented on how good the front end on Hamilton's car was and it was, looked a joy to drive. Both times they haven't won wasn't because they were slower.


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    #271
    Arthur Beesley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,537 ✭✭✭Arthur Beesley


    Gillespy wrote: »
    They aren't anywhere near the Mercs. Easy .5 second in qualifying and what lead did Rosberg have before the safety car? He just disappeared. Martin Brundle commented on how good the front end on Hamilton's car was and it was, looked a joy to drive. Both times they haven't won wasn't because they were slower.

    Who said Mercedes were slower? The margin over the rest of the field has been reduced. With better strategy Williams would be closer.


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