Formula 1 2014: Round 11 - Hungarian Grand Prix

GTE

Myrddin wrote: »

I know this might seem overly simplistic but I grow weary of making the same point....Nico wasn't close enough to pass Lewis out, seems relevant to me dude. You seem to be making the point that Lewis could have let Nico by without losing time...I don't agree. The only wheel to wheel racing Nico & Lewis were engaged in together was in the final lap of the race. If Nico had been that close when the order was made, I think Lewis would have moved over. He wasn't.

I think fundamentally you do not agree that at the time, Rosberg and Lewis were running different races and Rosberg needed the extra time to make 4th place safe as Lewis had 3rd or better secure. The Mercs were running a very slow setup in the dry and needed every second to be safe.

As we all saw in the race, when the tyres played their deg card, the above the case and it was a good move by Lewis not to let him past thought it was by coincidence rather than by strategy.

Myrddin wrote: »

DRS in conjunction with option tires should have allowed Nico to make the pass on Lewis, without doubt. Yes he was near the end of his stint, I get that, but at the same time, he wasn't close enough to Lewis to pass. The truth is, Nico wasn't impressive at all today & wasted a ton of time behind Vergne, at no point did he look any way 'racy' barring at the very end where he had >3 second a lap advantage. At the time, maybe Hamilton was wrong for not moving over becasue as you rightly point out, at that stage the strategies were not clear & they weren't racing each other...but in hindsight, it was absolutely too much to ask of Lewis. These are racers, & I for one am glad to see drivers thinking for themselves & pushing where possible.

Well, you seem to confuse matters by including other things in the race. I am very clearly and concisely talking about why the team order was made and, at the time, why it should have been followed but then, a matter of a handful of laps after the order the tyre deg showed how the race would actually pan out. There is no need for any other chat about Vergne.

Myrddin wrote: »

I do get it, at the time no Lewis would have reained position when Nico pitted...but the way things played out it would have seen Nico ahead at the end. Lewis, apart from asking the team to get Nico to close up so he could allow him to pass...didn't seem to want to take any chances after Silverstone...turns out he was spot on.

It was spot on because of the tyre deg, nothing else. Lewis' previous experience doesn't matter in the point we have been discussing about the team order in this race.

Myrddin wrote: »

The team & strategy guys got it wrong though. Was Lewis just a bold boy for not obeying an order, is that ultimately the point you are making?

If it wasn't a forum, I'd ask for an apology over that. There is no need to put words in my post like that. Poor form. I am not going close to saying that Lewis was wrong.

Myrddin wrote: »

Lewis said he'd let him by if he got close enough, he didn't/couldn't. There was no wheel to wheel until the very end between these two.

I
t doesn't mean that Lewis' message is routed into Rosbergs ear. What is the point you are trying to make here, anyway?

Myrddin wrote: »

I'd agree to a point. I took away from it that team orders need to be looked at much more carefully, & issued only when absolutely necessary.

Looked at more closely, if the tyres acted they way they were predicted, the team orders were perfectly fine but this was an ever changing track which had been drenched so it is hard to really put any serious blame on any member of the team. Merc stopped asking Lewis to move over fairly quickly.

Gillespy

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

Who said Mercedes were slower? The margin over the rest of the field has been reduced. With better strategy Williams would be closer.

They are living off scraps, hoping to be best of the rest. It's an easy one two for the Mercs every time so long as they have a normal weekend. Even when it goes horribly wrong for them they're still on the podium. They are utterly dominant.

Arthur Beesley

Gillespy wrote: »

They are living off scraps, hoping to be best of the rest. It's an easy one two for the Mercs every time so long as they have a normal weekend. Even when it goes horribly wrong for them they're still on the podium. They are utterly dominant.

So why wasn't Rosberg on the podium?

Oblomov

OK. Team stragety to finish as high as possible in the points. Rosberg was catching Hamilton at over 3 secs a lap.. Rosberg with better tyres was faster than Hamilton. Had Hamilton allowed Rosberg to pass could have made a subsranial difference to the Manufacturers points total

Team orders are now legal, the funny thing, Coulthard, most vocal in Hamilton's favour. was given and obeyed orders for Hakkinen to pass.

Both Hamilton and Rosberg drive for Mercedes and not renting the cars to race in. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Arthur Beesley

Oblomov wrote: »

OK. Team stragety to finish as high as possible in the points. Rosberg was catching Hamilton at over 3 secs a lap.. Rosberg with better tyres was faster than Hamilton. Had Hamilton allowed Rosberg to pass could have made a subsranial difference to the Manufacturers points total

Team orders are now legal, the funny thing, Coulthard, most vocal in Hamilton's favour. was given and obeyed orders for Hakkinen to pass.

Both Hamilton and Rosberg drive for Mercedes and not renting the cars to race in. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

It wouldn't have made a substantial difference, they just don't lead by as much as they might have, but they still increased their lead. Mercedes will not be caught. Zero chance of that happening.

Alun

Frankie Lee wrote: »

One thing that can be agreed is that it was a terrible drive by Rosberg, he particularly showed a lack of balls when stuck behind Vergne.

I agree. There was a Vergne, Rosberg, Vettel hamilton train for how many laps? 15 or so I seem to recall. In that time Hamilton was attempting to get past Vettel on several occasions, but Rosberg didn't appear to be doing anything of the sort, just cruising along behind Vergne and holding everybody up.

zombieHanalei

This forum can be a funny place, Nico has had a few detractors but had it been the other way around (i.e. Lewis complaining that Nico wouldn't let him by and subsequently sulking after the race) Lewis would have been absolutely savaged in comparison.

I can't believe anyone would question Hamiltons reaction to the team order, anyone who feels a driver should move over for his championship rival is bonkers. The criticism should be aimed solely at Mercedes there.

I'm astonished at how Vettel is being comprehensively and consistently outperformed by Ricciardo. I'm delighted for Ricciardo, a genuinely likeable guy.

Myrddin

If it wasn't a forum, I'd ask for an apology over that. There is no need to put words in my post like that. Poor form. I am not going close to saying that Lewis was wrong.

I'm defending Lewis' decision not to slow down & allow a rival to pass him. You're arguing against it, it's only natural to conclude you feel he was wrong to do so. In fact, you say as much above:

I am very clearly and concisely talking about why the team order was made and, at the time, why it should have been followed

Grand, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. I don't agree with it, but it's a discussion...there's no need to take insult from the debate. I do get what you're saying, in that at the time, it wouldn't have seemed to harm Lewis to allow Nico through...I get that. They were on different strategies, different tires, & it didn't at the time seem Nico would have been a threat later on in the race. However, it didn't look to me Nico was able to get close enough to Lewis to be allowed through without compromising a lap from Lewis.

Plus, there was an ever present threat of rain, which would instantly change everyone's strategy. Those two factors for me, justify Lewis' decision not to slow down. That is all

cadaliac

My sky+ didn't record the race yesterday. Anyone know where I can view the race, {catch up TV???}
Ta.

zombieHanalei

Set the planner to record Sky Sports F1 at 4.30 today, full replay!

Stallingrad

Also astonished a delighted for Ricciardo, we are so used to the really fast guys being either too arrogant or unlikeable. I hope he retains his obvious enjoyment for what he does. What he has done to Vettel, despite his bad luck, this year is really extraordinary. I liked Mark Weber but he must be watching F1 year asking some serious questions about his time in F1.

Gillespy

Arthur Beesley wrote: »

So why wasn't Rosberg on the podium?

Because it wasn't a straight forward race. He lost out big time to the Safety Car and unlike Hamilton is unwilling or unable to pass. You're not suggesting it was because he didn't have the pace.

Hamilton's qualifying woes may have robbed us of a fair battle with Rosberg but they have shown who is the more complete driver. One had to pit to pass Vernge, Hamilton does it with a brilliant brave move. To think of how unfairly Vettel was labeled in the past, only able to win from the front, not able to overtake, on the radio moaning. I wonder if Rosberg even believe he can overtake Hamilton.

Slutmonkey57b

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It`s a completely new Formula this season and has no bearing on what Webber did when he was Seb`s team mate.

Doesn't matter. In equal machinery, Vettel was usually comfortably better than Webber. In equal machinery, Daniel is comfortably better than Vettel. In a formula which Webber predicted would play to Vettel's strengths. Ignoring reliability problems for seb, he doesn't have the speed this year. I wonder if becoming a dad hasn't blunted his edge a little.

ZiabR

I still think Vettel is hungry. He was the master of the blown diffuser for the past 4/5 years. He most likely would have won WDC in 2009 had Red Bull moved to double diffuser faster. These 2014 cars just don't suit his style and he is being beaten, by Daniel this year fair and square. In fairness though, Vettel did qualify higher than Daniel last weekend, so the speed is still there, he just does not like these cars.

Stallingrad

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It`s a completely new Formula this season and has no bearing on what Webber did when he was Seb`s team mate.

I'm sure Mark is telling himself that repeatedly.

It's easy for a driver to say when he is under performing that 'the care does not suit me' but questions gave to be asked when a co-driver in the same car gets so much more out of it. Alonso has spent years getting much more out if those Ferraris then he should be able too, to me that marks him out as a driver of real talent. I have more expect form him than for Seb who goes off the radar when things gets tough.

Gillespy

ScumLord

That was a fantastic race, I'm completely on Hamiltons side with regards letting Rosberg through, it would have handed Rosberg an easy 3rd place. Rosberg couldn't even get close enough to take advantage of his faster car, whereas Hamilton battled up from the back, over taking and racing hard. He deserved that podium.

So disappointed Alonso couldn't hang on to 1st but he had a great race, it's looking like there's more pace in the Ferrari lately. I think Vettel showed some improvements in this race, things just didn't go his way.

Stallingrad

LIGHTNING wrote: »

It`s easy to say as its true a car that feel right to one driver may feel like a piece of junk to another.

I doubt very much that Vettel thinks his car is junk, he's just not able to get the speed out of it (yet) as his teammate proves. I think this diminishes him as a driver of real depth.

Tea 1000

Gillespy wrote: »

Because it wasn't a straight forward race. He lost out big time to the Safety Car and unlike Hamilton is unwilling or unable to pass. You're not suggesting it was because he didn't have the pace.

Hamilton's qualifying woes may have robbed us of a fair battle with Rosberg but they have shown who is the more complete driver. One had to pit to pass Vernge, Hamilton does it with a brilliant brave move. To think of how unfairly Vettel was labeled in the past, only able to win from the front, not able to overtake, on the radio moaning. I wonder if Rosberg even believe he can overtake Hamilton.

The Vernge pass by Hamilton was at a later stage when Vernge's tyres were gone off the cliff. It's not a comparible situation. Hamilton couldn't pass Vettel at the same time that Rosberg couldn't pass Vernge, and they were all going at the same speed.

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Doesn't matter. In equal machinery, Vettel was usually comfortably better than Webber. In equal machinery, Daniel is comfortably better than Vettel. In a formula which Webber predicted would play to Vettel's strengths. Ignoring reliability problems for seb, he doesn't have the speed this year. I wonder if becoming a dad hasn't blunted his edge a little.

It does matter. You're reading the situation completely incorrectly.

Stallingrad wrote: »

I'm sure Mark is telling himself that repeatedly.

It's easy for a driver to say when he is under performing that 'the care does not suit me' but questions gave to be asked when a co-driver in the same car gets so much more out of it. Alonso has spent years getting much more out if those Ferraris then he should be able too, to me that marks him out as a driver of real talent. I have more expect form him than for Seb who goes off the radar when things gets tough.

Alonso has had mediocre seasons too. Vettel is having one poor season, which should be noted that is also marred by bad luck, and everyone thinks he's crap. Nonsense.

Stallingrad wrote: »

I doubt very much that Vettel thinks his car is junk, he's just not able to get the speed out of it (yet) as his teammate proves. I think this diminishes him as a driver of real depth.

Also nonsense. You're adding 2 and 2 to come up with 5. Whether Ricardo is a better driver than Vettel outright remains to be seen as much as we can over the course of both their careers. At the moment, I reckon (and I think Lightening might agree) the difference between them is a little artifically enhanced. I'm not taking from Ricardo, he's proving to be a future champion and one who can deservedly hang his helmet alongside Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Vettel, and anyone else on the grid. But too many folk on here are too quick to take Vettels helmet off the list!

Gillespy

Tea 1000 wrote: »

The Vernge pass by Hamilton was at a later stage when Vernge's tyres were gone off the cliff. It's not a comparible situation. Hamilton couldn't pass Vettel at the same time that Rosberg couldn't pass Vernge, and they were all going at the same speed.

Rosberg didn't even try, telling that he was told to box but to do the opposite of JEV. Meanwhile, you could argue Hamilton pressured Vettel into that error, hustling him all the way. Vernge had enough rubber, it wasn't a straightforward pass by Hamilton. Around turn 4, on the grass. No messing around. I think JEV deserves some credit for that bit of driving yesterday too.

Stallingrad

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Also nonsense. You're adding 2 and 2 to come up with 5. Whether Ricardo is a better driver than Vettel outright remains to be seen as much as we can over the course of both their careers. At the moment, I reckon (and I think Lightening might agree) the difference between them is a little artifically enhanced. I'm not taking from Ricardo, he's proving to be a future champion and one who can deservedly hang his helmet alongside Alonso, Hamilton, Rosberg, Vettel, and anyone else on the grid. But too many folk on here are too quick to take Vettels helmet off the list!

Where did I say Ricardo was better than Vettel? I also have no doubt that Seb will improve. But questions have been asked of Seb that he has yet to answer, makes you wonder how many titles he would have won with a stronger teammate. And all your dismissive references to 'nonsense' won't change my mind on that! :pac:

Tea 1000

Gillespy wrote: »

Rosberg didn't even try, telling that he was told to box but to do the opposite of JEV. Meanwhile, you could argue Hamilton pressured Vettel into that error, hustling him all the way. Vernge had enough rubber, it wasn't a straightforward pass by Hamilton. Around turn 4, on the grass. No messing around. I think JEV deserves some credit for that bit of driving yesterday too.

Look at JEV's speed a lap or two after Hamilton's move, his tyres were gone. He had to pitt. Hamilton made some brilliant moves yesterday, but that one I wouldn't rate massively myself.

Tea 1000

Stallingrad wrote: »

Where did I say Ricardo was better than Vettel? I also have no doubt that Seb will improve. But questions have been asked of Seb that he has yet to answer, makes you wonder how many titles he would have won with a stronger teammate. And all your dismissive references to 'nonsense' won't change my mind on that! :pac:

They aren't dismissive if I go on to explain why!!

Gillespy

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Look at JEV's speed a lap or two after Hamilton's move, his tyres were gone. He had to pitt. Hamilton made some brilliant moves yesterday, but that one I wouldn't rate massively myself.

It was the move of the race. Easily. Remember Grosjean did it last year but was called for going off the track. It's not an overtaking area.

flazio

Here's a thought, and to be fair it could easily have happened, had the roles been reversed, Rosberg was ahead and Lewis was on the fresher rubber, do you think Nico would have let Hamilton through? I very much doubt it.

Myrddin

flazio wrote: »

Here's a thought, and to be fair it could easily have happened, had the roles been reversed, Rosberg was ahead and Lewis was on the fresher rubber, do you think Nico would have let Hamilton through? I very much doubt it.

I think Hamilton would have got through regardless tbh

Slutmonkey57b

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It does matter. You're reading the situation completely incorrectly.

How? What situation?

Well, let's look at my reading again:
1. Vettel and Webber were given the same car.
> With one highly public exception, this is undeniably true.
2. Vettel and Ricciardo were given the same car.
> With no exceptions whatsoever, this is undeniably true.
3. Vettel was comfortably better than Webber.
> Vettel beat Webber in a close fight in 2 seasons, and comprehensively in two, and could have beaten him with one proverbial arm behind his back in the last season. Vettel: 4 World Championships, Webber: None. This is undeniably true.
4. Ricciardo is comfortably better than Vettel.
> Ignoring races where one or other driver encountered a technical problem/team error, Ricciardo has been the better driver. The stats are in his favour, and if you look at their driving objectively, he is clearly far more comfortable driving the car. The season isn't over, but Vettel hasn't shown he has anything in the bag to catch up to Daniel's performaces.

Therefore, it doesn't matter that the formula is "different" this year.
The formula was different in 2010 compared to 2009, in 2012 compared to 2011 and again in 2013 compared to 2012.

In F1, everything resets at the start of every year. Every year drivers are given a new prototype to drive. Comparisions between teammates are the only valid, pure comparison of driving talent. Too many other variables are in play otherwise.

Vettel beat Webber, comfortably.
Ricciardo is beating Vettel, comfortably.

Alonso has beaten every teammate he's had with the exception of Hamilton, comfortably.

Frankie Lee

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

4. Ricciardo is comfortably better than Vettel.
> Ignoring races where one or other driver encountered a technical problem/team error, Ricciardo has been the better driver. The stats are in his favour, and if you look at their driving objectively, he is clearly far more comfortable driving the car. The season isn't over, but Vettel hasn't shown he has anything in the bag to catch up to Daniel's performaces.

In fairness to Vettel he completely dominated Ricciardo all weekend in Hungary until the mistake of staying out an extra lap with the safety car. Ricciardo has had the better of him for most of the season but I wouldn't be surprised if Vettel starts to get the upper hand towards the end of the season.

I never rated Webber as high as others did however and in his last couple of seasons age caught up with him.

Corben Dallas

3. Vettel was comfortably better than Webber.
> Vettel beat Webber in a close fight in 2 seasons, and comprehensively in two, and could have beaten him with one proverbial arm behind his back in the last season. Vettel: 4 World Championships, Webber: None. This is undeniably true.

Last Season yes, 2 before Webber was bit closer to Vettel than ppl give him credit for. In 2010 Webber was leading the table in final race with Alonso 2nd and Vettel distance 3rd (with an outside chance of lifting the title). Webber was favourite. Red bull made a (wrong) strategy call getting Webber to pit earlier thinking the tires would not last into dusk/ night time, Ferrari covered Webber when he pitted (cause they figured he was greater threat, RB left Vettel out, his tires DID hold out and it won him the Championship. (from being 3rd outsider in title race)
Lets also not forget Webber had Vettel's number around places like Monaco and Silverstone.
I would accept Vettel is the better driver but its a bit closer than ppl think.

4. Ricciardo is comfortably better than Vettel.
> Ignoring races where one or other driver encountered a technical problem/team error, Ricciardo has been the better driver. The stats are in his favour, and if you look at their driving objectively, he is clearly far more comfortable driving the car. The season isn't over, but Vettel hasn't shown he has anything in the bag to catch up to Daniel's performaces.

This is WAAaayyyy too early to make this claim, over a half season, we should see the real Vettel later in the season. Think one of the problems is Vettel was on top of the world last Season WC, record 9<? race wins in a row, comprehensively beat Team mate etc. To this one maybe 3/4th best car, poorest engine which breaks a lot and no longer able to compensate for all this with Newey Aerodynamics. F1 has gone from an Aero formula to an Engine Formula this year.
Vettel is probably suffering from a major Success Hangover.

However he would want to wake up fast because Ricciardo has the chops and potential to be WC material.
** Note >>His wins in Canada and Hungary maybe had some luck, but he definitely didn’t have the fastest car, winning races like this is the mark of a Champion elect.

walshb

I'm with Hamilton as regards the letting Rosberg thru order. Lewis battled his ass off to go from last place to 3rd. Then he's asked to relinquish that, for what?