Formula 1 2014: Round 11 - Hungarian Grand Prix

Mike Litoris

dloob wrote: »

You wonder where Jenson could have finished if McLaren hadn't shot themselves in the foot with the strategy yet again. :rolleyes:

Yep, that was an awful call. Williams didn't do too good with the strategy either. Shame.

Arthur Beesley

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Great race. Time for reverse grids in F1? :P

Last thing we need is more contrived racing. I saw a mention of handicapping with weight / ballast, that would be the last straw for me.

Arthur Beesley

djayforza wrote: »

He has the car under him and the confidence that brings, it is tight for drive of the day but i would still choose Alonso. Just my opinion, I may be slightly biased as i'm a ferrari fan. Great race either way

Hamilton got a 30 plus second gain from the safety car plus the track position as a result of the first 5 or so not pitting until the next lap.He drove a good race but was very lucky. Even avoided breaking or losing his front wing or worse on the first lap.

Ricciardo for me, Alonso close second (as much as I hate to say that).

Gillespy

When Hamilton had all the tyres, why didn't he 3 stop. I believe they were scrubs on Nico at the end and he was so fast. After getting the break with the SC, I thought it was odd to go on the mediums. Williams at least had to try to do something after being screwed by the SC

I can't believe he was asked to let Nico through. Merc keep telling us there are no team orders so what was that. Toto admitting they didn't press it after Hamilton's horrid run of bad luck. 11 points in it now, it will a travesty if anyone but Hamilton wins it this year.

Credit to Flavio, that was an exciting race.

Infoanon

Lewis Hamilton "very, very shocked" at being asked to move over by Mercedes - so much for discussing this internally.

Charlie-Bravo

+1 for Flavio - how many cars did he have spin off today?!

Myrddin

What a race, it had everything - dry weather, wet weather, safety cars, inter-team battles, overtaking all through the field, & a chase to the flag. Utterly brilliant.

Not sure what the general consensus is re Lewis & the team order, but I thought he was bang on to what he did. A championship battle, changeable weather, & all manner of considerations & Rosberg wanted him to move out of the way despite having fresher optiosn tires AND drs? Get the fugg...what if Lewis had let him through & it rained? I accept they were on different strategies but for most of it Nico looked out of the DRS window, & Lewis even told the team he'd let Nico through if he got closer. All from the team that 'let their drivers race'...silly, silly stuff & fair play to Hamilton. Yes Lewis got lucky with the first safety car timing, but hey, I don't think anyone could begrudge him some good luck at this stage.

Great drive by Alonso, would have loved to see him holding out for the win by Ricciardo & his fresh option tires were just too much. Still, delighted for Ricciardo, he was inspired at times today & is seriously putting manners on Vettel at this stage.

Another lap & Rosberg would have had Lewis & Alonso...kind of glad though because I want to see the battle fleshed out as long as possible.

Anyone else think it looks like Red Bull have properly sorted out the whole area of braking? Ricciardo seemed to be able to brake much later and with more confidence and stability than anyone else. If Renault can somehow eventually get some decent power out of the engine I can see Red Bull being back on top quite quickly.

_rebelkid

Lauda: Hamilton was right to defy team

Slutmonkey57b

Myrddin wrote: »

Another lap & Rosberg would have had Lewis & Alonso...kind of glad though because I want to see the battle fleshed out as long as possible.

But that means it'll be decided by double points. Surely nobody wants that?

Myrddin

^ he was right. Look how close Nico was near the end, plus, what if it had of rained after letting Nico through? Madness that call was. If Nico couldn't close up with fresher option tyres AND the use of DRS then he was too slow, simple as.

Frank Bullitt

Smashing race, Ricciardo and Alonso are drives of the day for me. Will be great to see them battle for 3rd in the championship.

Myrddin

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

But that means it'll be decided by double points. Surely nobody wants that?

No, but we're just pas the half way point...I'd like the battle to go on for another bit. Nothing worse than a championship decided with loads of races to go.

Infoanon

Myrddin wrote: »

What a race, it had everything - dry weather, wet weather, safety cars, inter-team battles, overtaking all through the field, & a chase to the flag. Utterly brilliant.

Not sure what the general consensus is re Lewis & the team order, but I thought he was bang on to what he did. A championship battle, changeable weather, & all manner of considerations & Rosberg wanted him to move out of the way

It was the Team not Nico who asked him to move over- Nico was very clear on this in post race interviews.

Myrddin

Infoanon wrote: »

It was the Team not Nico who asked him to move over- Nico was very clear on this in post race interviews.

Maybe I'm imaging it, but I could have sworn I heard Rosberg expressing annoyance over the radio that Hamilton hadn't moved over...

Edit - 10 second mark, & I'm certain he said it twice too

Zcott

Worth remembering that when the team asked Lewis to move over he was a full pitstop ahead. Ok, no one would have imagined it would end up as it did, but it was supposed to move Nico up maybe one or two positions.

Also, from Mercedes point of view they're trying to win the constructors title, so every point matters. No driver should be bigger than the team.

Peanut Butter Jelly

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe I'm imaging it, but I could have sworn I heard Rosberg expressing annoyance over the radio that Hamilton hadn't moved over...

Rosberg said "why hasn't he moved out of the way? " to which the team responded "He's been given the message Nico. He's been given the message. "

Myrddin

Zcott wrote: »

Worth remembering that when the team asked Lewis to move over he was a full pitstop ahead. Ok, no one would have imagined it would end up as it did, but it was supposed to move Nico up maybe one or two positions.

Also, from Mercedes point of view they're trying to win the constructors title, so every point matters. No driver should be bigger than the team.

Yes they were on different strategies, but in changeable weather to ask a driver who's fighting for a championship to move over for an apparently slower car just damages the team imo. Why couldn't Nico get closer, like Lewis requested? Option tires & DRS and still Nico couldn't get close enough. Doesn't sound like a car I'd want to slow down for. The fact Lewis closed the gap in the title race justifies what he done to me. If Vettel had done the same we'd all be cheering about that's why he's a winner, but the fact Lewis does it vilifies him. People scream for no team orders & they want wheel to wheel racing...but when they get it they're still not happy.

Peanut Butter Jelly wrote: »

Rosberg said "why hasn't he moved out of the way? " to which the team responded "He's been given the message Nico. He's been given the message. "

That was the second time Nico radioed back. I wondered why the team didn't say to Nico "get closer & Lewis will let you by".

Nico didn't look quick enough to pass Lewis, he got in the DRS window a few times, but for the most part he was outside of the window. Vettel, Alonso, Kimi...none of them would have done any differently in the same situation.

Zcott

Myrddin wrote: »

Yes they were on different strategies, but in changeable weather to ask a driver who's fighting for a championship to move over for an apparently slower car just damages the team imo. Why couldn't Nico get closer, like Lewis requested? Option tires & DRS and still Nico couldn't get close enough. Doesn't sound like a car I'd want to slow down for.

That was the second time Nico radioed back. I wondered why the team didn't say to Nico "get closer & Lewis will let you by".

Nico didn't look quick enough to pass Lewis, he got in the DRS window a few times, but for the most part he was outside of the window. Vettel, Alonso, Kimi...none of them would have done any differently in the same situation.

Hard to know. Maybe he was just cruising around taking care not to damage his tyres and wasn't actively trying for a pass, knowing the team would let him through...or maybe he genuinely didn't have the pace today. Suspect only Nico knows that.

GTE

Myrddin wrote: »

Maybe I'm imaging it, but I could have sworn I heard Rosberg expressing annoyance over the radio that Hamilton hadn't moved over...

Edit - 10 second mark, & I'm certain he said it twice too

The team told Rosberg that Hamilton would move over and it didn't happen.
Spending laps behind someone when you are expecting them to move over could get quite annoying, which is why he was asking the team why what they said was going to happen didn't happen.

I don't know what point you are trying to make. His annoyance doesn't somehow mean that the source of the team order changes :S

Myrddin

Zcott wrote: »

Hard to know. Maybe he was just cruising around taking care not to damage his tyres and wasn't actively trying for a pass, knowing the team would let him through...or maybe he genuinely didn't have the pace today. Suspect only Nico knows that.

Nico was a pitstop behind though, I highly doubt he was cruising protecting tires as he knew he'd have to stop again.

bbk wrote: »

The team told Rosberg that Hamilton would move over and it didn't happen.
Spending laps behind someone when you are expecting them to move over could get quite annoying, which is why he was asking the team why what they said was going to happen didn't happen.

Lewis asked for Rosberg to get closer so Lewis didn't have to slow down...that didn't happen. As for getting annoyed behind someone you're expecting to move over...if you expect your nearest rival in the championship to move over you're asking a lot.

Why didn't Nico just pass Lewis out??

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

Nico was a pitstop behind though, I highly doubt he was cruising protecting tires as he knew he'd have to stop again.



Lewis asked for Rosberg to get closer so Lewis didn't have to slow down...that didn't happen. As for getting annoyed behind someone you're expecting to move over...if you expect your nearest rival in the championship to move over you're asking a lot.

Why didn't Nico just pass Lewis out??

Because he didn't have the speed. If you can't overtake on pace alone, and can't keep up so the car will move over, you don't deserve to pass.

FWIW, I think Hamilton was totally correct in not slowing down to let Nico pass. That's not what team orders do. Team orders are to let your team mate, who is visibly faster than you, pass you to benefit strategy and the team. Rosberg wasn't faster than Hamilton on that stint, which one could argue was due to being behind Hamilton.

GTE

Myrddin wrote: »

Yes they were on different strategies, but in changeable weather to ask a driver who's fighting for a championship to move over for an apparently slower car just damages the team imo. Why couldn't Nico get closer, like Lewis requested? Option tires & DRS and still Nico couldn't get close enough. Doesn't sound like a car I'd want to slow down for. The fact Lewis closed the gap in the title race justifies what he done to me. If Vettel had done the same we'd all be cheering about that's why he's a winner, but the fact Lewis does it vilifies him. People scream for no team orders & they want wheel to wheel racing...but when they get it they're still not happy.

I don't think there is anything of significance in that, but on the point about differing strategies, it seemed to me that the tyre situation was changing dramatically at the same point that Nico was closing up.

If Merc really needed the cars to switch, there would have been a radio message from higher up the chain.

If I remember correctly, a couple of front runners pitted when it was thought that they would run all the way. If this meant Hamilton would be marginal on tyres that they had thought would be fine, then the team order was not appropriate as suddenly he was racing Nico, which is why Merc stopped.

GTE

Myrddin wrote: »

Lewis asked for Rosberg to get closer so Lewis didn't have to slow down...that didn't happen. As for getting annoyed behind someone you're expecting to move over...if you expect your nearest rival in the championship to move over you're asking a lot.

Why didn't Nico just pass Lewis out??

I think you are overestimating the power of the DRS at this track firstly. Secondly, the reason the DRS is there is because the turbulent air causes big problems with overtaking. Thirdly, Nico was coming to the end of a stint which, at the time, meant that the two drivers were not racing each other. Every second counted for the team points haul for whoever Merc thought Rosberg would be racing.

Things changed, Merc retracted the team orders and the best decision for Merc was made thanks to Lewis not playing ball as the realisation about how marginal the tyres were going to be came about.

Even if Rosberg was to only gap Hamilton by a couple of seconds before pitting, that is a couple of seconds against whoever Merc thought Rosberg would be racing. As it turned out, they were racing each other! Fantastic development and strategy switch!

Myrddin

_rebelkid wrote: »

Because he didn't have the speed. If you can't overtake on pace alone, and can't keep up so the car will move over, you don't deserve to pass.

My thoughts exactly. Nico has option tires on & the use of DRS yet couldn't get near enough so that Hamilton could let him by without having to slow down. Hard to believe there's any debate in this at all. Imagine Vettel being asked to do the same, actually he was wasn't he, & his response was "tough luck"...yet he's lauded as a racer. Hard not to get a hint of double standards when debating Lewis at times. In Vettel's scenario though, Ricciardo actually had what it took to get close enough anyway. I'm not trying to make out Nico isn't good enough, he clearly is, but it's insanity to expect to be let by in this situation. He was outside of the DRS window for most of the battle!!

FWIW, I think Hamilton was totally correct in not slowing down to let Nico pass. That's not what team orders do. Team orders are to let your team mate, who is visibly faster than you, pass you to benefit strategy and the team. Rosberg wasn't faster than Hamilton on that stint, which one could argue was due to being behind Hamilton.

I definitely agree in that I think Rosberg wasn't fast enough at that stage. Perhaps the best of his option tires were used up by then. But when Lewis says "tell him to get closer & I'll let him go" & Nico doesn't close the gap...all I can think of is that Nico wasn't quick enough at this part.

Gillespy

Nico had a golden opportunity in the last lap to punish a mistake by Lewis and pass him but he fluffed it. Same as Bahrain and Barcalona. He was camped out behind JEV for ages but when Lewis came up to him he cleared him in no time with a brilliant move around Turn 4. Puts a wheel on the grass to do it but it was brave and decisive. Rosberg needed to pit to overtake a Torro Rosso. He needed a team order to pass Lewis. Has he done anything special? You see Ricciardo's move on Lewis and Alonso at the end there and you think that's a future World Champion, I don't see it with Rosberg.

One thing I've noticed even in the last few years is that if someone has a lot of pace and can catch someone quickly but gets stuck even for a lap and lose momentum they get caught in the fabled turbulent air. Nico only had a second, maybe a second and a bit in hand when he was behind Hamilton which wasn't enough to get through the barrier.

_rebelkid

Myrddin wrote: »

My thoughts exactly. Nico has option tires on & the use of DRS yet couldn't get near enough so that Hamilton could let him by without having to slow down. Hard to believe there's any debate in this at all. Imagine Vettel being asked to do the same, actually he was wasn't he, & his response was "tough luck"...yet he's lauded as a racer. Hard not to get a hint of double standards when debating Lewis at times. In Vettel's scenario though, Ricciardo actually had what it took to get close enough anyway. I'm not trying to make out Nico isn't good enough, he clearly is, but it's insanity to expect to be let by in this situation. He was outside of the DRS window for most of the battle!!



I definitely agree in that I think Rosberg wasn't fast enough at that stage. Perhaps the best of his option tires were used up by then. But when Lewis says "tell him to get closer & I'll let him go" & Nico doesn't close the gap...all I can think of is that Nico wasn't quick enough at this part.

Yeah, drivers are very much dealt with differently depending on who they are; Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton come to mind.

[QUOTE=bbk;91459889I think you are overestimating the power of the DRS at this track firstly. Secondly, the reason the DRS is there is because the turbulent air causes big problems with overtaking. Thirdly, Nico was coming to the end of a stint which, at the time, meant that the two drivers were not racing each other.

Things changed, Merc retracted the team orders and the best decision for Merc was made thanks to Lewis not playing ball as the realisation about how marginal the tyres were going to be came about.[/QUOTE]


If you were watching Sky's coverage, they spoke to CHarlie Whiting about just that. The DRS is most effective if you are within 0.3s of the car in front. That is due to the DRS zones being 700m long, which will translate to the cars being side by side at the end of the zone. But, the DRS zone at Hungary is 610m long, which is why there is a second zone straight after. So the point of DRS in Hungary is mainly for the entry into T2. Rosberg was quite close there a few times, so the DRS is actually quite effective there.

Myrddin

bbk wrote: »

I think you are overestimating the power of the DRS at this track firstly.

I dunno, it helped plenty of other drivers make passes today.

Secondly, the reason the DRS is there is because the turbulent air causes big problems with overtaking.

I know It stalls the rear wing, reducing drag & thus allowing the car using it to have faster straight line speed. It's an advantage for cars behind, & eliminates a scenario where cars are stuck behind rivals for lap after lap due to 'dirty air'.

Thirdly, Nico was coming to the end of a stint which, at the time, meant that the two drivers were not racing each other.

Ah, the key question then. Why ask a driver near the end of a stint to be let by if he was coming in soon anyway? As I said above, it was a silly call & a type that hurts the image of teams. It seemed an over-reaction, & Coulthard himself even thought it was madness. If Rosberg didn't make the request for Lewis to be moved over then fair enough, but getting annoyed behind him & radioing in twice asking why he wasn't letting him go is really naive at this level.

Things changed, Merc retracted the team orders and the best decision for Merc was made thanks to Lewis not playing ball as the realisation about how marginal the tyres were going to be came about.

Definitely. He did the right thing, from the perspective of someone fighting for a title.

Frankie Lee

One thing that can be agreed is that it was a terrible drive by Rosberg, he particularly showed a lack of balls when stuck behind Vergne. He needs to take chances if he is to win the WDC, Hamilton has to be a strong favourite now.