Mick Wallace and Clare Daly reportedly arrested at Shannon airport.

Awkward Badger

smurfjed wrote: »

I have to say that i have no issues with these possible rendition flights. They were not done for fun, they were done to protect rights that you and I enjoy. What possible atrocities did the removal of these people from human society save us from?

Classic. Illegal abduction, detention and torture of people without trial done on the soil of other sovereign nations with no respect to the law or human rights.

But done to protect our freedom and rights, so alls well. Fcuk me.

blackwhite

smurfjed wrote: »

I have to say that i have no issues with these possible rendition flights. They were not done for fun, they were done to protect rights that you and I enjoy. What possible atrocities did the removal of these people from human society save us from?

I wouldn't have an issue IF there was some transparency in how targets were identified, and that they were put on trial promptly once captured.

The situation where they grabbed people off the street, without having to convince a judge or jury as to their reasons just isn't acceptable.

geeksauce

smurfjed wrote: »

I have to say that i have no issues with these possible rendition flights. They were not done for fun, they were done to protect rights that you and I enjoy. What possible atrocities did the removal of these people from human society save us from?

Rendition is wrong no matter what, you cant say you have no problem with it once they are done to protect our rights while they most defintiely affect the rights of those involved. We are all human after all and no one country or person has the right to choose who's rights are protected and who's are ignored.

smurfjed

Classic. Illegal abduction, detention and torture of people without trial done on the soil of other sovereign nations with no respect to the law or human rights.

Yep thats about it.

We are all human after all and no one country or person has the right to choose who's rights are protected and who's are ignored.

Unfortunately, this concept doesn't work when only one side is interested in applying human rights.

Piliger

smurfjed wrote: »

Yep thats about it.

Unfortunately, this concept doesn't work when only one side is interested in applying human rights.

Exactly. I am so proud that we played our part in removing these scum from society for at least as long as they were held.

darkpagandeath

How have the Td's been released without charge ? They broke a number of laws.

Paramite Pie

smurfjed wrote: »

I have to say that i have no issues with these possible rendition flights. They were not done for fun, they were done to protect rights that you and I enjoy. What possible atrocities did the removal of these people from human society save us from?

Yeah all those people released without charge... they must have been monsters....
Of the 779 people detained, 600 were released without charge. The remaining 179 have not yet been processed (but some have been acquitted but still detained).

At least 15 of them were underage (youngest was 13). While child soldiers are indeed a problem in the Middle East, I'm not sure if Guantanamo is the best place. Minors should not be in the same prison as adult men. And lastly, the Federal Courts have tried/convicted more terrorists than Guantanamo in the same time period (2001 to 2011) and more openly.

http://www.hrw.org/features/guantanamo-facts-figures
http://www.lawandsecurity.org/Portals/0/Documents/TTRC%20Ten%20Year%20Issue.pdf
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12966676

Gitmo has a poor conviction rate, costs a lot of money and processes detainees at a snails pace.

darkpagandeath

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Yeah all those people released without charge... they must have been monsters....
Of the 779 people detained, 600 were released without charge. The remaining 179 have not yet been processed (but some have been acquitted but still detained).

At least 15 of them were underage (youngest was 13). While child soldiers are indeed a problem in the Middle East, I'm not sure if Guantanamo is the best place. And lastly, the Federal Courts have tried/convicted more terrorists than Guantanamo in the same time period (2001 to 2011) and more openly.

http://www.hrw.org/features/guantanamo-facts-figures
http://www.lawandsecurity.org/Portals/0/Documents/TTRC%20Ten%20Year%20Issue.pdf
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12966676

Gitmo has a poor conviction rate, costs a lot of money and processes detainees at a snails pace.

I meant the TD's

geeksauce

darkpagandeath wrote: »

How have the Td's been released without charge ? They broke a number of laws.

File has gone to the dpp so they may yet be charged, better be charged anyway.

smurfjed

Paramite Pie, thanks for the links, but have a look at these and then tell me why i should respect the human rights of the people transported.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson,_Jr."]URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson,_Jr."]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson,_Jr.[/URL][/URL]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6398395.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia

Some of these people were friends, some family of colleagues, some colleagues......

So lets talk about human rights!

Santa Cruz

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Yeah all those people released without charge... they must have been monsters....
Of the 779 people detained, 600 were released without charge. The remaining 179 have not yet been processed (but some have been acquitted but still detained).

At least 15 of them were underage (youngest was 13). While child soldiers are indeed a problem in the Middle East, I'm not sure if Guantanamo is the best place. Minors should not be in the same prison as adult men. And lastly, the Federal Courts have tried/convicted more terrorists than Guantanamo in the same time period (2001 to 2011) and more openly.

http://www.hrw.org/features/guantanamo-facts-figures
http://www.lawandsecurity.org/Portals/0/Documents/TTRC%20Ten%20Year%20Issue.pdf
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-12966676

Gitmo has a poor conviction rate, costs a lot of money and processes detainees at a snails pace.

Does anyone actually believe that democratic procedures defeats terrorism.
Bring the bastards to their knees and then you can do democracy.


How many times has the US been hit since 9/11?
How many attacks have been thwarted on the basis of information got through rendition etc.
If you want to know what frightens your enemy examine what they use to frighten you

darkpagandeath

geeksauce wrote: »

File has gone to the dpp so they may yet be charged, better be charged anyway.

I don't get the file being sent, Many laws were clearly broken Trespass, trespass on active runway, illegal access to areas around planes. loads, seems no real will to prosecute to me.

jjbrien

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I don't get the file being sent, Many laws were clearly broken Trespass, trespass on active runway, illegal access to areas around planes. loads, seems no real will to prosecute to me.

The Guards are prob covering themselfs after the drink driving incident where they arrested Claire Daly for drink driving when she was not drink driving. This time however she has been caught red handed and hopefully will get charged and brought to court.

If convicted are they still allowed to sit in the dail?

darkpagandeath

jjbrien wrote: »

The Guards are prob covering themselfs after the drink driving incident where they arrested Claire Daly for drink driving when she was not drink driving. This time however she has been caught red handed and hopefully will get charged and brought to court.

If convicted are they still allowed to sit in the dail?

This is what i don't get, The Gardaí don't get to choose whether they will prosecute a law that has been broken. They have to apply the letter of the law it's up to the dpp whether to continue with the prosecution is it not. In this case there have been multiple laws broken. There should be a list of charges.

My name is URL

darkpagandeath wrote: »

Many laws were clearly broken Trespass, trespass on active runway, illegal access to areas around planes. loads

That's not 'many' laws.. it's one law

darkpagandeath

My name is URL wrote: »

That's not 'many' laws.. it's one law

Yes i understand that, but there will be many laws covering different actions in this kind of area not just trespass.

Banjo String

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I don't get the file being sent, Many laws were clearly broken Trespass, trespass on active runway, illegal access to areas around planes. loads, seems no real will to prosecute to me.

Adult cautions all round.

Waste of court time for a measly trespass charge.

jjbrien

darkpagandeath wrote: »

This is what i don't get, The Gardaí don't get to choose whether they will prosecute a law that has been broken. They have to apply the letter of the law it's up to the dpp whether to continue with the prosecution is it not. In this case there have been multiple laws broken. There should be a list of charges.

If charged they should be suspended from the dail. But will they be? The dail is where laws are voted on and bills are made. These two now are verifed law breakers and if this happened in the US they would be suspended from congress until they are cleared. I dont hold much hope for anything being done to them other than a slap on the wrist. Seems get elected to the dail get away scott free.

darkpagandeath

jjbrien wrote: »

If charged they should be suspended from the dail. But will they be? The dail is where laws are voted on and bills are made. These two now are verifed law breakers and if this happened in the US they would be suspended from congress until they are cleared. I dont hold much hope for anything being done to them other than a slap on the wrist. Seems get elected to the dail get away scott free.

Yeah that's another thing any other EU state they would be suspended even for an accusation of breaking the law, let alone actually breaking the laws of the land. They would have to prove they did not break any law. Any other EU state they would probably have to resign. Its amazing here.

Awkward Badger

jjbrien wrote: »

If charged they should be suspended from the dail. But will they be? The dail is where laws are voted on and bills are made. These two now are verifed law breakers and if this happened in the US they would be suspended from congress until they are cleared. I dont hold much hope for anything being done to them other than a slap on the wrist. Seems get elected to the dail get away scott free.

Wasn't Joe Higgins sentenced to prison over the bin protests when he was a TD ? Clare Daly was also imprisoned along with him too if I remember correctly.

jjbrien

Awkward Badger wrote: »

Wasn't Joe Higgins sentenced to prison over the bin protests when he was a TD ? Clare Daly was also imprisoned along with him too if I remember correctly.

Yup thats correct

Anti-bin tax campaigners Joe Higgins TD and Councillor Clare Daly have been sentenced today to a month in prison for their part in the protests against refuse charges.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/jail-sentences-for-joe-higgins-and-clare-daly-114124.html


But heres where they get off:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/national_government/houses_of_the_oireachtas/eligibility_for_membership_of_dail_eireann.html

You are disqualified from membership of Dáil Eireann if:

You are presently in prison serving a term greater than 6 months

So that means you can still run for office if you have a criminal conviction and for the bin charges Joe Higgans and Claire Daly only got a month so got off. Same applied to Liam Lawlor.

Awkward Badger

jjbrien wrote: »

Yup thats correct http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/jail-sentences-for-joe-higgins-and-clare-daly-114124.html


But heres where they get off:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/national_government/houses_of_the_oireachtas/eligibility_for_membership_of_dail_eireann.html


So that means you can still run for office if you have a criminal conviction and for the bin charges Joe Higgans and Claire Daly only got a month so got off. Same applied to Liam Lawlor.

Wallace and Daly don't have much to fear in that regard then either.

conorh91

darkpagandeath wrote: »

I don't get the file being sent, Many laws were clearly broken Trespass, trespass on active runway, illegal access to areas around planes. loads, seems no real will to prosecute to me.

A file being sent to the DPP is effectively a request for a direction on how to proceed, or amounts to handing an investigation over to the DPP for her office to prosecute.

It happens in all serious cases. It doesn't mean that the Gardaí are not taking it seriously, or that they cannot locate criminal offences.

jjbrien

conorh91 wrote: »

A file being sent to the DPP is effectively a request for a direction on how to proceed, or amounts to handing an investigation over to the DPP for her office to prosecute.

It happens in all serious cases. It doesn't mean that the Gardaí are not taking it seriously, or that they cannot locate criminal offences.

If they do go ahead with charges how long a sentence would they get in this case?

smurfjed

Extremely interesting that no one has questioned any of this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson,_Jr."]URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson,_Jr."]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Marshall_Johnson,_Jr.[/URL][/URL]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6398395.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Saudi_Arabia

Can any of you tell me what is the the required mindset of some that is willing to behead a civilian?

Im not asking for forgiveness for supporting rendition flights, as i have my reasons.

Muahahaha

smurfjed wrote: »

I have to say that i have no issues with these possible rendition flights. They were not done for fun, they were done to protect rights that you and I enjoy. What possible atrocities did the removal of these people from human society save us from?

So you would have no problems if the CIA just picked you or one of your family members up off the street and surfaced you to Guantomino Bay for a few years torture, despite your total innocence ? Because that has happened.

So given we know innocent people have been tortured then if you're in favour of special rendition you're effectively saying if the US wants to torture you despite your innocence then you're all for that. Some people support daft things but being in favour of a system that can torture you despite your innocence is one of the daftest I've heard yet.

smurfjed

So you would have no problems if the CIA just picked up or one of your family members up off the street and surfaced you to Guantomino Bay for a few years torture, despite your total innocence ? Because that has happened.

So given we know innocent people have been tortured then if you're in favour of special rendition you're effectively saying if the US wants to torture you despite your innocence then you're all for that.

Is that what has happened?

What about the american civilian who got kidnapped as he went to work, then was beheaded on video, who fought for his human rights?

smurfjed

If the DPP do not prosecute these individuals they are basically granting permission for anyone to climb the airport fences within ireland and attack whatever aircraft they desire.

Not good.

Muahahaha

smurfjed wrote: »

Is that what has happened?

What about the american civilian who got kidnapped as he went to work, then was beheaded on video, who fought for his human rights?

Well yeah, there are several instances of innocent people being kidnapped and tortured in Gitmo, it's not even in dispute any more, I think the US have paid them compensation at this stage. One case that stood out was the British national of Pakistani descent who was on a bus in Pakistan on the way to a family wedding and special forces swooped and he ended up in Gitmo. The guy has nothing to do with terrorism, never came up on any radars before, clean criminal record in the UK and in Pakistan but that didn't stop him living out 2 years of imprisonment and torture at Gitmo. The British Foreign Office backed his families campaign and told the Yanks that the guy is under no suspicion of terrorism. Even that didn't stop them torturing him. Like imagine literally torturing someone who keeps shouting out "I'm innocent, I know nothing" Sp they think he is lying and torture him even more. He wasn't lying.

Regards the American who was beheaded, I don't know what your point is here ? Human Rights isn't an either-or, I want human rights for all humans, doesn't matter to me if it's an American being beheaded or someone innocent being locked up without trial and being tortured- neither of them deserve that fate. I wouldn't want that fate for me or any of my family members so why would I even try to justify it happening to other innocent people ?

conorh91

jjbrien wrote: »

If they do go ahead with charges how long a sentence would they get in this case?

The maximum penalties are

on summary prosecution (in the District Court) a fine not exceeding £1,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or both a fine and imprisonment.

on indictment (before a jury), a fine not exceeding £50,000, or imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years, or both.

The decision on whether to prosecute at all, or whether to prosecute in the District Court or on indictment rests, in the first instance, with the DPP. This is why a file has gone to her office.


(note that under the Euro Changeover Act, the amounts referred to convert to €1,250 and €65,000 respectively)