Non-Restricted pistols classed as restricted

Tea drinker

Well if I mention that the Gardai now classify non restricted pistols as restricted I'd be sucking some of the joy out of this thread.

Wadi14

Explain Tea Drinker ?

LIFFY FISHING

Wadi14 wrote: »

Explain Tea Drinker ?

Scare mongering, and rumour, based on no facts..

Cass

The target forum has a no polictics rule, but i'll explain and then ask that people use the main shootign forum if they wish to discuss it further and leave Liffy fishing's/Wadi14's thread as is.

The reference, Wadi 14, is to this thread in which the OP had his license for an unrestricted .22lr revoked because his Super determined that as the magazine was plugged from 10 round (which is a restricted gun) to 5 round (unrestricted) that the magazine could be altered and make it a 10 round mag (restricted) gun again.

In the past week i've been contacted by a few lads in the same position and two that have applications in for processing and are now being told the same. That their application has been passed onto the Chief Super for consideration as the pistol is deemed to be restricted. The "kicker" is the Chief Super will not look at the application as no new licenses fro restricted short arms are being issued since November 2008 which means legally the Chief Super cannot and will not issue a license.

As said in the thread i linked to, towards the end, they are acting in a somewhat "dodgy" manner as they are in effect preventing a crime from happening by stopping people from having a perfectly legal item under license. As one poster said it's like stopping someone from having a car license because the car they want to buy is able to go above the speed limit.

While the numbers, however small, are alarming they are far too small to be considered a national stance by An Gardaí, and there is no evidence that this is a country wide issue.

BattleCorp

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Scare mongering, and rumour, based on no facts..

Not quite. We've lads and lasses in the club who have had pistol licences refused because the Gardai class them as restricted, even though they were .22lr and had their magazines plugged to only hold 5 rounds.

One member was refused a licence for a Ruger pistol. She was told it was a hunting pistol. Crazy crap.

Apologies if this type of comment isn't allowed in this forum but I thought it was relevant.

clivej

Tea drinker wrote: »

Well if I mention that the Gardai now classify non restricted pistols as restricted I'd be sucking some of the joy out of this thread.

LIFFY FISHING wrote: »

Scare mongering, and rumour, based on no facts..

Cass wrote: »

The target forum has a no polictics rule, but i'll explain and then ask that people use the main shootign forum if they wish to discuss it further and leave Liffy fishing's/Wadi14's thread as is.

The reference, Wadi 14, is to this thread in which the OP had his license for an unrestricted .22lr revoked because his Super determined that as the magazine was plugged from 10 round (which is a restricted gun) to 5 round (unrestricted) that the magazine could be altered and make it a 10 round mag (restricted) gun again.

In the past week i've been contacted by a few lads in the same position and two that have applications in for processing and are now being told the same. That their application has been passed onto the Chief Super for consideration as the pistol is deemed to be restricted. The "kicker" is the Chief Super will not look at the application as no new licenses fro restricted short arms are being issued since November 2008 which means legally the Chief Super cannot and will not issue a license.

As said in the thread i linked to, towards the end, they are acting in a somewhat "dodgy" manner as they are in effect preventing a crime from happening by stopping people from having a perfectly legal item under license. As one poster said it's like stopping someone from having a car license because the car they want to buy is able to go above the speed limit.

While the numbers, however small, are alarming they are far too small to be considered a national stance by An Gardaí, and there is no evidence that this is a country wide issue.

BattleCorp wrote: »

Not quite. We've lads and lasses in the club who have had pistol licences refused because the Gardai class them as restricted, even though they were .22lr and had their magazines plugged to only hold 5 rounds.

One member was refused a licence for a Ruger pistol. She was told it was a hunting pistol. Crazy crap.

Apologies if this type of comment isn't allowed in this forum but I thought it was relevant.

I have to add to these posts.

The Superintendents are not applying the written law and in the opinion of a report from Judge Lucey acting outside of the licensing of firearms.

I cannot find the Judge Lucey report that I read. It would seem that D.I. Kevin Brooks (Garda firearms Expert) was putting his interpretation/opinion on the law and as the Superintendents were relying on D.I. Brooks their info and they are getting the wrong info.

The restriction of a handgun magazine is the same as used in a unrestricted licensed semi/pump shotgun that is fitted with a plastic insert to restrict the mag. to the current legal requirement of 2 shells

Rosahane

clivej wrote: »

?..

I cannot find the Judge Lucy report that I read. It would seem that D.S. Kevin Brooks (Garda firearms Expert) was putting his interpretation/opinion on the law and as the Superintendents were relying on D.S. Brooks their info and they are getting the wrong info.

...

It's here http://d52so9qkre3k8.cloudfront.net/sites/nargc/en/Upload/Judgement%20Thomas%20Mansfield.pdf

Can I urge anybody experiencing licencing issues to, through their club, contact the NARGC or NASPPC where they will receive valid advice and information.

Sparks

clivej wrote: »

I cannot find the Judge Lucy report that I read.

Not Lucy, but Lucey. I've attached a copy to this post.

It would seem that D.S. Kevin Brooks (Garda firearms Expert) was putting his interpretation/opinion on the law and as the Superintendents were relying on D.S. Brooks their info and they are getting the wrong info.

That's not actually a conclusion of the Justice according to the report, he never says that Brooks or the CS in the case were writing the law themselves or just ignoring it (which is something that's been seen in the past); but that instead the CS was fettering his decision-making process because Brooks apparently had an opinion about almost every firearm that said it fell foul of the Firearms Act.

In other words, the problem lay not with the law, but the expert advice given.

To me, (and I'm not a solicitor, your milage may vary, there's no such thing in the Irish legal system as a sure thing court case anymore than there's a sure thing in a bookies, etc, etc, yadda yadda yadda), it seems like that's what we're seeing here as well.

And the point that people are getting licences today for the same firearms others are falling afoul of this problem with does kindof say it's a localised problem, not a systemic one, which would also suggest it depends on who the licencing person talks to.

clivej

Thanks Sparks, for the spelling error (I never was any good) and the link.

Tea drinker

Well if you are prepared to spend money and take it to court all the Garda decisions re incorrect classification are getting overturned.

But this should not be happening as the Gardai should implement gov policy and laws not invent new imaginary procedures which tie up court time, cost law abiding taxpayers money, time and inconvenience for something which simply does not require this.
One has to wonder if I subit a non restricted licence application does this count as the Gardai then altering the licence application - which they were told not to do anymore?
In effect it is altering, but in a legal sense I have no clue what it means.



The minister said that these tainted the public perception of the force and established an urgent need for reform at every level.While she welcomes many innovations in the gardai in recent years, Ms Fitzgerald does not believe these went far enough.“I cannot be blind to the reality that, in some areas, the structure and culture have changed little,” she adds. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/frances-fitzgerald-in-scathing-criticism-of-garda-force-30446504.html#sthash.6SziDTNa.dpuf

yeah yeah, sure yeah

Sparks

Tea drinker wrote: »

Well if you are prepared to spend money and take it to court all the Garda decisions re incorrect classification are getting overturned.

Er, any chance of a list of those decisions?
Because people keep talking about how we win in court all the time, but reading the actual judgement gives us a slightly lower winning percentage (I think we're at 50% of cases in the supreme court and a higher percentage in the lower courts, but it's not 100% anywhere that I know of).

But this should not be happening as the Gardai should implement gov policy and laws not invent new imaginary procedures which tie up court time, cost law abiding taxpayers money, time and inconvenience for something which simply does not require this.

Yup. Mansfield was important there though because it effectively says this is the result of one source of incorrect advice.

One has to wonder if I subit a non restricted licence application does this count as the Gardai then altering the licence application - which they were told not to do anymore?

No, it's not an alteration, it's an outright refusal on the grounds that your application was improperly filled in (which is meant to be the standard response if you apply for a non-restricted licence for a restricted firearm). If he'd altered it, it'd get messy as to whose decision you'd appeal and who'd be involved in the case.

yeah yeah, sure yeah

I'd wait to see the outcome of whichever of these cases gets to the High Court for judicial review first before making up my mind on that one.
And this is one of the few examples I can think of from the last decade or so where the risk of taking a JR case on a general principle could be worth it, so long as the test case was carefully chosen and the central question was carefully framed to be something like "are Supers meant to talk to Ballistics or the FPU when seeking expert advice on a licencing decision".

Ideally, this wouldn't be done this way because it's expensive, risky, and the outcome lasts until the next legislation change; but with the FCP scuttled we aren't exactly spoiled for choice of avenues to proceed down...

Cass

Rosahane wrote: »

Can I urge anybody experiencing licencing issues to, through their club, contact the NARGC or NASPPC where they will receive valid advice and information.

Such as?

What exactly about the discussions held on this forum, about this topic, are invalid or non informative?

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

And the point that people are getting licences today for the same firearms others are falling afoul of this problem with does kindof say it's a localised problem, not a systemic one, which would also suggest it depends on who the licencing person talks to.

Clare,Limerick,Kerry,Cork,Tipp..Would say a provincial problem at this stage??

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Clare,Limerick,Kerry,Cork,Tipp..Would say a provincial problem at this stage??

When I say localised, I don't mean geographically; I mean it seems to be localised to those cases where Ballistics was consulted.

yubabill1

Tea drinker wrote: »

Well if you are prepared to spend money and take it to court all the Garda decisions re incorrect classification are getting overturned.

But this should not be happening as the Gardai should implement gov policy and laws not invent new imaginary procedures which tie up court time, cost law abiding taxpayers money, time and inconvenience...


The minister said that these tainted the public perception of the force and established an urgent need for reform at every level.While she welcomes many innovations in the gardai in recent years, Ms Fitzgerald does not believe these went far enough.“I cannot be blind to the reality that, in some areas, the structure and culture have changed little,” she adds. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/frances-fitzgerald-in-scathing-criticism-of-garda-force-30446504.html#sthash.6SziDTNa.dpuf

yeah yeah, sure yeah

Too busy yesterday to read full article, but indo front page said Frances Fitzgerald wants a public consultation on Garda performance - she's been saying this for a few days now and journos are saying "I never need to deal with Gardaí..how could I know how they perform?"

Well, We have asked ourselves the question on this site before, whether we are the largest -compliant- group of citizens dealing with AGS.

Surely we deserve an input, especially wrt threads like this.

Yuba.

Sparks

We probably do, but I think we might find that the other 97% of the electorate think that us being irked by 0.5% of licence applications not being handled well isn't as serious as penalty points going missing, GSOC being bugged, and the other more serious stuff that's been showing up in the press of late.

So yes, input, but don't expect we'll be able to see the head of the queue from where we'll be standing!

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

We probably do, but I think we might find that the other 97% of the electorate think that us being irked by 0.5% of licence applications not being handled well isn't as serious as penalty points going missing, GSOC being bugged, and the other more serious stuff that's been showing up in the press of late.

So yes, input, but don't expect we'll be able to see the head of the queue from where we'll be standing!

Certainly a group of 100,000 citizens is not going to respond as one and I take your points on board. But I am one of those people who believes that every vote counts.

My thinking is this: This country has moved into a more literal phase. What I mean is that there was a time when the power of the state was less and people held a healthy disregard for laws that made no sense.

Of course, you could fall foul of these laws and you would have to pay the price; but the country by-and-large got by because people employed common sense in the absence of civil authority.

I argue that this is one reason why the Irish are regarded as having no sense of outrage.

But since the Celtic Tiger, citizens have become more compliant - for instance, there was a time when a shopkeeper could not charge £4.09 for something, because the customer would either throw him £4- or laugh at them and go somewhere else.

And what about the 1993 tax amnesty? Garret Fitzgerald taxed income at 70% higher rate, so nobody on large incomes paid their full tax.

I'm not saying all of this was good, what I am arguing is that citizens are more compliant now.

So they should be rewarded for said compliance with guardians of the peace who no longer assume the general citizenry all have something to hide -and treat them with the respect commensurate with that assumption.

In a country where Foreign Minister, Charlie Flanagan is vigorously supporting the release and return of an Irish citizen in prison in Egypt, (whom Irish security services believe is regarded as an extremist by their Egyptian counterparts) having been arrested inside a mosque alongside a number of armed protestors - the same Charlie Flanagan who excoriated shooters on social media a few months ago for shooting a fox and leaving it on a gate to frighten other foxes away, you have to ask yourself "What is going on?"

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

But I am one of those people who believes that every vote counts.

I'm not saying it doesn't. I'm just saying every vote counts (and for every one of us, there are 35 of them), so I wouldn't bet on this solving all our problems. We still should give input to this though.

Grizzly 45

I argue that this is one reason why the Irish are regarded as having no sense of outrage.

Think it is more because we are actually a very cowed race of people in our own country.We have had it bred out of us for the last few hundred years,when if you spoke out of turn ,you found yourself on the side of the rod and road at best or on a one way cruise to Van Diemans land or Americkay.
When we did gain our state,we elected to run us the people we, respected for their learning.IE loads of school teachers,and urbanites with the education,while the rest of us rural types who couldnt read,write or post letters entrusted this along with the Church .Anyone who said the contary was considerd touched in the head or a trouble maker,best disposed of by emigration or in the big house. The old joke of the time.

"I pronounce your husband dead Mrs Murphy."
I'm not dead" from mr Murphy.." Shutup!! The doctor knows better than youse! from Mrs Murphy"
It illustrates the point that we as a people placed too much trust in our powers that be that we considerd our "betters".In short Connolly was right we swapped the crown for the tri colour.And because of us really missing out on the social upheavels of the rest of the World of the 1960s and 70s when the rest were turning off,dropping out or blowing up,or making love and not war ,our biggest concern in Ireland was a bishop getting upset about a nightie on the Late Late on that new fangled contraption the television.
In short we have about 30 to 40 years social issuing catching up to do with Europe which we are doing,but its peculiar how we do it.We dont protest,smash and burn.We just do it and its accepted by Irish society.

But since the Celtic Tiger, citizens have become more compliant - for instance, there was a time when a shopkeeper could not charge £4.09 for something, because the customer would either throw him £4- or laugh at them and go somewhere else.

Actually would think the opposite,we are becoming more questioning and demanding seeing the three pillars of Irish society,Church,Govt,Garda,have been found to be very rotten and are being questioned on a daily basis..how many of us would dare have complained about this treatment we get handed out by AGS back in the 1980s??We would have been told to shut up and leave it go if you knew whats good for you.If the TCO of 1972 happened today in 2014,would we belive a word from AGS or DOJ on the matter that it would be "only for 30 days"? Yet our fathers and grandfathers accepted that this would be so..
And THAT particular mess is and never will be sorted properly.

If someone charged me 4.09 for some thing I'd say they were being cheeky these days in a depression.Most people will accept 4 euros and not make a fuss about 9 cents if they want to keep busisness.But then again,maybe I'm different,I belive in opening my mouth if I am not satisfied with something.how many of us do complain about shoddy service ,but say when we are asked is everything alright,all say its fine thanks?

So they should be rewarded for said compliance with guardians of the peace who no longer assume the general citizenry all have something to hide -and treat them with the respect commensurate with that assumption.

Here is the crux of the matter.. Simply put we are NOT trusted by the PTB with arms,especially handguns.There is some deep rooted phobia about handguns in AGS and has been since the foundation of the State.Maybe its because the concealability factor and Collins "12 apostoles" dealing with British spies...who knows..If you ever get a copy of "the Garda guide" the training handbook of AGS and look up firearms in it you would swear Sarah Brady wrote it herself.."all firearms,especially handguns are especially dangerous and must be kept as much as possible from the public."Dunno if that has changed much,but if that is what they are or were teaching in Templemore should we be surprised of this neagativeity and difficult attitude?Then we have the attitude of cheifs and supers to handguns,most ,if not all these men and women have done a stint as plain clothes and armed detectives so they were carrying ,mostly S&W.38's for the older generation on a daily basis as a tool for the job.So they wouldnt,and cant understand why would anyone WANT one for a sporting purpose?They assume just because you were in the army and humped one around all day in a holster ,that you would be sick of the thing by the time you quit the service as they were when they moved on out of plain clothes and behind their desk.

In a country where Foreign Minister, Charlie Flanagan is vigorously supporting the release and return of an Irish citizen in prison in Egypt, (whom Irish security services believe is regarded as an extremist by their Egyptian counterparts) having been arrested inside a mosque alongside a number of armed protestors - the same Charlie Flanagan who excoriated shooters on social media a few months ago for shooting a fox and leaving it on a gate to frighten other foxes away, you have to ask yourself "What is going on?"

Indeed you do,along with the Dail standing in support of Gaza.Whatever the rights or wrongs of that conflict, that was as good as Dev going to offer condolences with the German ambassador on Hitlers death in our much vaunted neutrality.No condemnation of Russia ,or the Donetsk republic shooting down a jet liner with an Irish citizen aboard on the last Dail day..
But then again they are politicans and the adage of Obama runs strong here,never let a good crisis go to waste,no matter how small,and most of ours certainly are small.

As for hanging the fox on the gate or other shot vermin.Found out it is an old tradition going back to Victorian times.Game keepers used to have outside their cottages a so called "Keepers gallows" on which they hung the shot vermin so the lord or squire could see that they were doing their job and controlling the estates pests.It also served a double function of keeping the winged vermin away from the crops or garden as a macabre scarecrow. Foxes OTOH were reserved more for being hunted on horseback and it was only a very troublesome fox that would after being dispatched be hung off the property gates for all and sundry to see that the pest was disposed of.Proably a tradition in these politically correct times we might want to forget as our pouplation becomes more urban and less rural,alot of the "townies" whose grand parents were proably farmers will be outraged at these what were pretty normal country practises up to 50 years ago and misinterpert this as barbaric and aninmal cruelty to be reported in gory detail on the journal.ie

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

If the TCO of 1972 happened today in 2014,would we belive a word from AGS or DOJ on the matter that it would be "only for 30 days"? Yet our fathers and grandfathers accepted that this would be so.

Er, no, that's not what happened.
The TCO was issued, it was complied with, then the 30 days ran out and the "policy change" got announced, people protested and then were told by the Minister of the day that if they went to court, they'd win but he'd write a new law before the week was out that did in statute law what the policy did as a reversable regulation.

And if you remember the circumstances surrounding the Dunne case and the 2004 CJB, that's basically what happened.

Indeed you do,along with the Dail standing in support of Gaza.Whatever the rights or wrongs of that conflict, that was as good as Dev going to offer condolences with the German ambassador on Hitlers death

I don't have any polite words to express how wrong you are there, but I know it's got sod all to do with the sport of target shooting, as does most of that post, so how about we just draw a line under this tangent at this point?

Dian Cecht

Not condoning what some senior Gardaí have/are doing to our sport but maybe they fear firearms in private hands as they fear they may someday be faced with said firearms in the line of duty.

Sparks

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Not condoning what some senior Gardaí have/are doing to our sport but maybe they fear firearms in private hands as they fear they may someday be faced with said firearms in the line of duty.

I would hope they're far, far more concerned about the firearms that nobody ever tries to licence...

Dian Cecht

Sparks wrote: »

I would hope they're far, far more concerned about the firearms that nobody ever tries to licence...

Agreed.

However, they also seem concerned (not sure if it's a legitimate concern) that legally held firearms are falling into criminal hands more so than licenced firearms owners going off on one I reckon.

As I said, I'm not condoning what some are doing, but if I were a Garda it would be a concern to me, especially the way this country is going. Can't be too much fun facing down a criminal with a firearm and all you have is pepper spray & a baton :eek:

LIFFY FISHING

As I started this tread with a simple question about the handeling of two pistols , in a different section, found it moved,, and now find it dragged into politics I would like to have it closed.
There is always room for debate but Cass as per your last post there is also a time to draw a line.
The road that this tread is heading should be in the politics section and not the shooting forum.

Sparks

Actually Liffy, your original thread's still open in that original section, here. All of this thread was moved to here to avoid dragging your original thread off-topic. So maybe go easy with the "shut up you lot" bit, even if it has meandered a bit?

Tea drinker

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Not condoning what some senior Gardaí have/are doing to our sport but maybe they fear firearms in private hands as they fear they may someday be faced with said firearms in the line of duty.

If true, this is a huge demonstration of the lack of trust that authorities have for the citizens who voted them into power.
If we look at the lawlessness and cost associated with having repeat criminals running around harming law abiding citizens we see more evidence of the lack of respect we have for ourselves. Ironic and obvious at the same time that a lot of the lawless problems we have are due to state mishandling, and waste of taxpayer money. More money and court time which will now be wasted with law abiding citizens on acquiring something which we have clear policies to guide us.


Someone mentioned about Irish and no sense of outrage. Well, I don't know about outrage but the reason a lot of people don't complain is because we do one thing at a world class level = shoot the messenger.