HELP...!Pistol Licence Revoke!

loonymoony · 12-07-2014 12:20pm #1

Hi Guys,
Garda Siochana ordering me to surrender my GSG 1911 Pistol

I really need some advice here; I received a letter from my local Garda Station saying the following;
____________________________________________________________________________
Firearm –GSG Pistol Serial No. (******)

With reference to the above I am writing to you in relation to this firearm for which you were issued a firearm certificate on 2nd October 2012.

On the basis of information now available to me, I am informed that the firearm as outlined above is a restricted firearm, in accordance with Statutory Instrument 21/2008 as amended. The firearm certificate issued to you on the 2nd October 2012 was issued in error. Therefore firearm certificate number ****** is invalid and I am to inform you that the firearm that is in your possession is licensed incorrectly.

I now wish to inform you that the firearm certificate issued to you and dated as above has no legal effect. In the circumstances, I strongly advise that you should immediately surrender the pistol for storage in the premises of a registered firearms dealer until such time as the matter can be rectified.

If you wish to discuss this matter please contact this office on *** ******* to make an appointment to discuss the issue.

Please inform this office, as a matter of urgency, of the steps taken to rectify this situation thereby assuring me that you are not in possession of an unlicensed firearm.

Yours Sincerely,
LOCAL SUPERINTENDANT

___________________________________________________________________________

This is the letter I received word for word on the 8th of July, At present I surrendered the pistol in question to my local RFD where I am also a range member, the owner there has advised me to hold out informing my local Garda Station a few days in doing anything as he is waiting to hear back from Country Alliance Ireland regarding advice in this matter.

To give you a brief background about me I have no criminal records and no trouble with the law in any regard, I am a member of a local shooting range and have had licenced firearms for over 10 years with no issues.

I would greatly appreciate any help and advice in this matter.

Cass · 12-07-2014 12:44pm

You have the first and most important step taken. Getting the gun to an RFD. However the "don't tel them" advice is, well frankly piss poor. By not telling the Gardaí or making contact with them they could arrive at your home to seize the gun because for all they know you are still in possession of it.

If it were me i would do the following.

Contact the Gardaí via the number on the letter. Inform them you have surrendered the pistol to RFD "XXXXXXX". Give them the contact details o the RFD and if you don't already have one get a letter to state the same like you would if you were buying a gun from an RFD. That will solve the immediate problem of putting their mind at ease, informing them, and making contact.

The next step is to find out why they believe it to be a restricted pistol. IT is a .22lr?Have you the mags limited/restricted to 5 rounds. Not 10 and you only load 5, but that it physically cannot hold more than 5? If so and all your mags are like this then the firearm itself, being a .22lr, is unrestricted and the mags fall into line with the unrestricted status.

What you need is a letter from your RFD stating that he has inspected the magazines and can confirm they are incapable of holding more than 5 rounds which by SI 21/2008 as amended by SI337/2009 falls into the category of unrestricted. With your continuing membership and participation in target shooting i can see no other reason for them to consider the gun restricted.

Excuse my bluntness, but the attitude of "tell them nothing" is wrong. You'll get further and on better if you co-operate with An Gardaí. As for the Country Side alliance. It's no harm to have them advice you but as i said above the only reason they can consider the gun restricted is if it's a bigger caliber than .22lr, or the mag capacity is greater than 5. Once you get the letter from your RFD stating it's a .22lr and has 5 rounds the matter should be easy to clear up.

NipNip · 12-07-2014 12:45pm

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0021.html

loonymoony · 12-07-2014 12:53pm

Hi Cass

Thanks for the advice, regarding the (not inform them) my understanding about this advice is just to give myself a day or two to gather some advice on how to approach this issue.

NipNip · 12-07-2014 12:55pm

loonymoony wrote: »

Hi Cass

Thanks for the advice, regarding the (not inform them) my understanding about this advice is just to give myself a day or two to gather some advice on how to approach this issue.

You approach the issue as you have been instructed by the Garda to do. What alternative are you considering?

Cass · 12-07-2014 1:00pm

I appreciate that but you don't need to try and sort it out immediately. As in you don't need to go in and sit down with them unprepared.

All you are doing is informing them that he gun is "gone". You then tell them that you want to make an appointment, but before you do you want to know why they think it's restricted, and as such find out the reason why they are revoking the license.

I'm not suggesting or telling you to run into the situation "unarmed" (information wise), but get your facts sorted first. I mean by your own post you say you don't know why this is happening. The first thing Countryside Alliance will ask is why. If you cannot answer that because you haven't asked then they will tell you to ask.

My point is the sledgehammer to a peanut syndrome is not needed here. So have the CAI informed and ready , but try the polite approach first and it might surprise you if the situation can be resolved by simply explaining a mistaken belief. I think, and i'ts only a guess, but a letter from your RFD explaining the design and unrestricted nature of the gun will do more good than the CAI at the moment.

loonymoony · 12-07-2014 1:01pm

NipNip wrote: »

You approach the issue as you have been instructed by the Garda to do. What alternative are you considering?

just wanted advice from as much people as i could, thanks for your help

rowa · 12-07-2014 1:09pm

Cass wrote: »

.

The next step is to find out why they believe it to be a restricted pistol. IT is a .22lr?Have you the mags limited/restricted to 5 rounds. Not 10 and you only load 5, but that it physically cannot hold more than 5? If so and all your mags are like this then the firearm itself, being a .22lr, is unrestricted and the mags fall into line with the unrestricted status.

What you need is a letter from your RFD stating that he has inspected the magazines and can confirm they are incapable of holding more than 5 rounds which by SI 21/2008 as amended by SI337/2009 falls into the category of unrestricted. With your continuing membership and participation in target shooting i can see no other reason for them to consider the gun

Once you get the letter from your RFD stating it's a .22lr and has 5 rounds the matter should be easy to clear up.

Sorry cass, but what the guards are now saying is, if the gun came from the factory with magazines with a capacity of over 5 rounds, then the gun is restricted. If you have the mags limited to 5 rounds by a dealer or gunsmith it no longer counts as the guards say you can convert them back again. I have been refused a licence for a browning buckmark recently, and this was after me checking with thr fpu etc about the gun being unrestricted, which they said it was. The refusal letter mentioned that the ballistics dept considered the pistol a restricted firearm due to its magazine capacity and so a licence couldn't be issued for it.

Tackleberry. · 12-07-2014 1:20pm

Dont worry about this revoke, its not a valid revoke, i say this because there are reasons a FAC can be revoked and this aint one of them..
I can say this because for the last two years ive been in court ( for 5 days) there is 2 of us dealing with this issue.. ill pm you my number as i can say no more..

loonymoony · 12-07-2014 1:20pm

Hi Rowa

Where does it state this in the Law?

Dian Cecht · 12-07-2014 1:22pm

Firstly, to the original poster, sorry to hear that your being treated this way.

Next, if I read this correctly the guidelines & FPU say one thing & the ballistic dept say another. How do you decide who's "right" apart from a trip to court?

Grizzly 45 · 12-07-2014 1:24pm

OH!! ANOTHER person with a problem with the GSG 1911.22lr pistol......How strange!!:rolleyes:

Funny how these GSG1911.22lr pistols are now being refused,or not being considerd for liscensing,or develop " liscensing problems" throughout the land of Ireland all of a sudden.

I ,and about six people I know of are having this problem nationwide.
My Superintendent is refusing to conside rmy application as he contends it has a ten round mag and is "used by the US military and US police forces so it is a combat firearm and unliscenseableby me as I did not hold a liscense for this restricted firearm pre Nov 2008 under secction blah,blah,yada yada."

Thought the US armed services dropped the 1911 from general issue by the mid 1980s in favour of the Bretta M9,and odd that the US police forces in their many and varied organisations would STILL be toting a seven shot 103 year old pistol design....:pac: AND using it in 22lr as well....
Odd too that we suddenly became the 51st state of the Union overnight and no one noticed??As the comparison as to what is in the USA as to what goes on here
in our gun laws beats me.
NOR is it according to Garda ballistics an approved "olympic style target pistol in the meaning of the Olympic rules.":rolleyes:

But WTF would I know??He is a Garda Super and we're just dumb taxpaying units.:rolleyes:

Funnily enough the gun isn't even in the country yet,and I have requested GSG to ship it with 2 factory blocked five round mags,as NOW it is apprently not good enough for Garda Ballistics "experts" that the mags are blocked by Irish gun dealers/smiths.

Bottom line is. There is a concerted campaign on against the GSG 1911 .22lr and any other "military lookalikes" in 22lr being organised by AGS.

FWIW you would now be better off contacting William Egan and Asoc in Dublin and talking to him about this.He has over two dozen cases relating to the GSG 1911.22lr pistols on his books in the last year.He'll be the same person CAI will proably be talking to anyway,so cut out the monkeys and talk to the organ grinder directly.

Grizzly 45 · 12-07-2014 1:33pm

Dian Cecht wrote: »

Firstly, to the original poster, sorry to hear that your being treated this way.

Next, if I read this correctly the guidelines & FPU say one thing & the ballistic dept say another. How do you decide who's "right" apart from a trip to court?

I wouldnt trust EITHER of those depts now as far as I could throw them.
Thats from long experiance of them in the confines of a few DC rooms the length and breath of Munster.

Cass · 12-07-2014 1:35pm

rowa wrote: »

Sorry cass, but what the guards are now saying is, if the gun came from the factory with magazines with a capacity of over 5 rounds, then the gun is restricted.

There is no need to be sorry lad. I'm guessing at the reasons and the only two i can think of is mag capacity and caliber. So if you know why then all the better for the OP, and it gives us a specific detail to address in advice terms.

I've heard of lads having a tougher, to impossible, time trying to license .22lrs with restricted mags, but did not know An Gardaí were taking such steps to prevent abuse.

If that is the case then what i said above stands true, with one small addendum. Instead of getting a letter to say the magazines are restricted/limited to 5 rounds the OP needs to get his hands on magazine(s) that are made to hold only 5 rounds and cannot be changed to hold more.

If he can do this then the issue should be easily resolved. If he cannot then the process is "winnable", but only under much harder conditions.

The OP would need to show that the magazines have been permanently changed to hold no more than 5 rounds. He may face a court case, but if not he would still have to prove/show that for him to willingly and knowingly change the mag capacity from 5 to more than 5 is a criminal offence, as his license does not allow a restricted firearm, and do to so would show him unsuitable to hold a firearms license. With him already having a firearms license this shows he was suitable to hold it.

I'm saying this a little arse backwards but you get the idea. It's like me being told my Beretta shotgun is being taken off me because all i need to do is get a new barrel/mag tube that lets me hold more than 3 rounds. IOW "legislating" for the unknown/unpredictable.

Cass · 12-07-2014 1:35pm

Tackleberry. wrote:

Dont worry about this revoke, its not a valid revoke

Whether they can support their argument or not An Gardaí are the licensing authority and as such any letter from them in an official capacity saying to store the firearm in a dealers and speak to them is NOT to be ignored or treated as trivial.

The OP has taken the right steps and if he gets the right advice (from whatever source) this should be easily sorted.

Cass · 12-07-2014 1:35pm

looneymoony wrote:

Where does it state this in the Law?

SI 21/2008 as amended by SI337/2009 address restricted firearms and state the magazine capacity should be no more than 5 rounds. It DOES NOT say that a magazine changed to hold no more than 5 is not allowed, but the Gardaí are taking the steps themselves, apparently, to address this issue as there are lads with 10 round mags. Now they stay legal by only using 5 rounds, but the argument the Gardaí seem to be using is it's only a person character that stops them from breaking the law by loading more than 5. The funny part being it's our character that enabled us to be granted the license so on one hand you're told you are suitable then on the other you're told you are not to be trusted.

Cass · 12-07-2014 1:35pm

Dian Cecht wrote:

if I read this correctly the guidelines & FPU say one thing & the ballistic dept say another. How do you decide who's "right" apart from a trip to court?

Sometimes there is no other option, but if handled correctly it can be resolved before that is necessary.

The issue we have is the Ballistics Dept. have always been "against" us whereas the lads in the FPU apply the law as it is not as they want it to be. So the Ballistics Dept are turned to to get the advice that is wanted.

Cass · 12-07-2014 1:36pm

Grizzly45 wrote:

FWIW you would now be better off contacting William Egan and Asoc in Dublin

That is a mistake, IMO.

It's jumping the gun and unnecessary until the OP has had a chance to sit down with the Garda in question. The legal route should be the last avenue when all else has failed.

Dian Cecht · 12-07-2014 2:02pm

Cass wrote: »

That is a mistake, IMO.

It's jumping the gun and unnecessary until the OP has had a chance to sit down with the Garda in question. The legal route should be the last avenue when all else has failed.

That would be my advice also from experience with legal matters. Once the solicitor/court route is entered into it can & does become an adverse situation.

Tackleberry. · 12-07-2014 2:11pm

Cass wrote: »

That is a mistake, IMO.

It's jumping the gun and unnecessary until the OP has had a chance to sit down with the Garda in question. The legal route should be the last avenue when all else has failed.

Sorry Cass but this why the the lieancing system has to be taken away from the gards they cant answer ther own questions and turn to ballistics only to told the wrong info, we then end up in a court room.
The OP needs better advice then some here can give and after been dealing with GSG myself for the last two years in Clare courts (5 days) Willaim Eagn is the man to talk to.

Cass · 12-07-2014 2:39pm

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Sorry Cass but this why the the lieancing system has to be taken away from the gards they cant answer ther own questions and turn to ballistics only to told the wrong info, we then end up in a court room.

Agreed, but that is not germane to the thread. It's a debate on the appropriateness of An Gardaí running the entire system.

The OP needs better advice then some here can give and after been dealing with GSG myself for the last two years in Clare courts (5 days) Willaim Eagn is the man to talk to.

I appreciate you've been down the legal route, but the legal route has and always will envoke a reaction of confrontation. So if the OP responds with:

"Dear Mr Garda.

I won't take this lying down and now you can speak to my solicitor".

The Garda's response is going to be - "Fine. See you in Court". Why? Because he is not paying the fees. You however will end up with a bill in the thousands. A necessary route if you've exhausted all other avenues, but for the moment the OP is in the infancy of this issue and by opening and maintaining a good line of communications with An Gardaí he may find he can resolve this issue with little more than an inconvenience or short disruption to his shooting.

If he goes the legal route from the off then all communications will cease (that is no opinion, but the Garda will know better than to discuss anything after legal action is threatened or enacted), and he faces into months of not year(s) of court cases and expenses.

Lastly, and i need to put the Mod hat on for this.

No legal advice should be or can be given. This is a site wide rule as any action(s) taken based on the legal advice given here that leads to a problem can come back and bite both the site and person that gave it in the ass. So DO NOT give actual legal advice, but feel free to advise the OP as to how you think the matter may be resolved.

Grizzly 45 · 12-07-2014 3:01pm

While it is the Ultima Ratio[French used to cast this onto their cannons muzzles in Napelonic times.Means the final arguement] to have to go to court and it was pointed out by Judge Lucey in my case in the DC court that most of these liscensing issues can and should be sorted out by discussion between both parties."

What happens when you have asked as I have on FOUR occasions to meet the Super in writing to discuss this matter further and you do not even get a reply or an appointment??

What do you do if you provide as much evidence to the contary,technical and physical your Cheif still says" I dont care it looks like a combat pistol /assault rifle! Because my "experts" looked in a big book and spent hours trying to find the most miniscule connection to some military usage to justify my opinion."

BY ALL MEANS do indeed go the diplomatic route,do indeed try to sort this out and make every effort to sort this .BUT the reality states sofar you will need legal repersentation to sort this in the "final arguement".

Cass · 12-07-2014 3:16pm

You've basically made my argument for me.

The legal route can, and sometimes is the only way to resolve an issue, BUT ONLY after every other avenue is exhausted. I've said from the start of this thread that the OP should respond and talk to the Garda named in the letter. If after discussions no resolution can be gotten then he can decide to go the legal route if he wants. However to advise the legal route when he does not even know the reasons behind the revocation is premature and at this early point counter productive.

As you asked above Grizz, if they refuse to meet him, refuse to talk then he can seek experienced legal advice from a professional. However for the moment respond tot he invitation to talk and see what can be done before investing thousands in a legal case.

loonymoony · 12-07-2014 3:37pm

Thanks for all the advice lads, at this stage I will inform my local super that the firearm has been surrendered to my local RFD and show him letter of proof, secondly i will request a meeting in writing with my super to discuss this matter further, I will keep you all informed as to the outcome and if need be I will continue this matter in the courts, but this is only plan B which I hope to avoid with a face to face with the super.

Cass · 12-07-2014 3:42pm

Do let us know how you get on.

Make sure with any meeting you go prepared. Have paperwork, letters, applications, copies, etc. IOW everything. If you think you need it, bring it. If you think you don't need it, being it anyway. DO NOT walk in with your arms swinging.

Listen to what is said, and don't respond until you have been told what the prroblem(s) are. If it is the 5 round issue then inform them the mags are incapable of holding more than 5. If they say this can be reversed you must show, and ONLY if it's true, that this is not the case.

If possible try and source a pre-made 5 round mag. One that has not been altered and if this resolves the issue then you should be clear.

Lastly do not agree to any meeting until you are ready. IOW if it's set for Monday morning at 9am and you won't have what you need to go in prepared then put it off until you are, but don't try drag it out too long.

Best of luck.

Rosahane · 12-07-2014 3:50pm

If your shooting range is affiliated to the NASRPC get in touch with them, they will advise and possibly put you in touch with Willie Egan.

Tackleberry. · 12-07-2014 4:11pm

Cass wrote: »

You've basically made my argument for me.

The legal route can, and sometimes is the only way to resolve an issue, BUT ONLY after every other avenue is exhausted. I've said from the start of this thread that the OP should respond and talk to the Garda named in the letter. If after discussions no resolution can be gotten then he can decide to go the legal route if he wants. However to advise the legal route when he does not even know the reasons behind the revocation is premature and at this early point counter productive.

As you asked above Grizz, if they refuse to meet him, refuse to talk then he can seek experienced legal advice from a professional. However for the moment respond tot he invitation to talk and see what can be done before investing thousands in a legal case.

Id agree that this is the route to take but having taken it now for two short firearms it has become something of a matter of course where the result is the same, it has worked in the past for a rifle mod, but it seems to me your fight is with Ballistics more than the Super/Chief Super, and you dont get to talk to Ballistics so here is your problem, to change the info given by Ballistics is what ends you up in the court room.

rowa · 12-07-2014 5:06pm

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Id agree that this is the route to take but having taken it now for two short firearms it has become something of a matter of course where the result is the same, it has worked in the past for a rifle mod, but it seems to me your fight is with Ballistics more than the Super/Chief Super, and you dont get to talk to Ballistics so here is your problem, to change the info given by Ballistics is what ends you up in the court room.

I thought the Gardai anti-gun ballistics "expert" had retired last month ? Or was that just wishful thinking ?

clivej · 12-07-2014 5:19pm

I didn't read all this post 'cos it's to long. My advice is get in contact with the NASRPC and get an e-mail off to them.
If your mags, are restricted to 5 rounds then your handgun is classed as an unrestricted firearm

Witcher · 12-07-2014 5:20pm

There was a order sent around to supers a while ago saying they weren't to licence any pistol that came from the factory with a magazine over five rounds...doesn't matter if it's been welded etc. as the OP said.

My own super told me that face to face and from speaking to someone who deals with these issues in my own club others have been told the same around the country.

Dian Cecht · 12-07-2014 6:46pm

Blay wrote: »

There was a order sent around to supers a while ago saying they weren't to licence any pistol that came from the factory with a magazine over five rounds...doesn't matter if it's been welded etc. as the OP said.

My own super told me that face to face and from speaking to someone who deals with these issues in my own club others have been told the same around the country.

I thought Supers could not be "ordered" on matters relating to firearms licencing, hence, the Commissioners' guidelines

Now, for the record I know they get "circulars" on things, including firearms licencing, which some obviously enforce as official policy, even if they know they are technically breaking the law. Supers wanting/hoping for promotion, will tow the line, fact of life.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

HELP...!Pistol Licence Revoke!

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