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How should Israel defend itself?

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    #392
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    jank wrote: »
    b)Hamas want to kill all Jews, see their mandate.

    Even if that was true, what is there motivation to kill all Jews? You don't wake up one day and decide you want to slaughter and entire religion for no apparent reason.

    Every action has a reaction, and its the action of the Israeli state since the 1940s that has created groups like Hamas.


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    #393
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Gringo180 wrote: »
    Even if that was true, what is there motivation to kill all Jews? You don't wake up one day and decide you want to slaughter and entire religion for no apparent reason.

    Every action has a reaction, and its the action of the Israeli state since the 1940s that has created groups like Hamas.

    Yes, Jews are to blame much like gays are to blame for being killed in Muslim countries for being gay and women are to blame for being raped by men, maybe for wearing a short dress!

    And it is true.

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/douglas-murray/2014/05/hamas-tv-teaches-children-to-kill-all-jews/

    http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
    Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised.
    "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).


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    #394
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    jank wrote: »
    Yes, Jews are to blame much like gays are to blame for being killed in Muslim countries for being gay and women are to blame for being raped by men, maybe for wearing a short dress!


    Whatever happens in other muslim countries has nothing got to do with the thousands of innocent Palestinians being occupied and decimated at the hands of the Israeli's. Why cant you answer the questions put to you instead of wavering onto a different subject which has **** all to do with the topic at hand??

    Why does Hamas exist? Why do they launch rockets into Israel?


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    #395
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Gringo180 wrote: »

    Why does Hamas exist? Why do they launch rockets into Israel?

    Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is recognised as such by the international community (including the EU) who's aim is the destruction of Israel. Launching rockets into Israel is part of this strategy albeit poor one as many are also Islamists who believe in 99 virgins and all that.

    All, I see here is an attempt to legitimise their actions by repeatedly waving your arms and saying "Israel are bad, Israel are bad..."
    Why do IS exist and does that excuse their grotesque behaviour?


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    #396
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    a)Violence is justified I see .

    Of course it is. You have no problem with it yourself.
    jank wrote: »
    b)Hamas want to kill all Jews, see their mandate.

    And back to debunked claims in order to avoid the real issues and derail the thread.
    Jank wrote:
    Why do IS exist and does that excuse their grotesque behaviour?

    What relevance do IS have?


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    #397
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »


    And back to debunked claims in order to avoid the real issues and derail the thread.

    Just because you use the word debunked doesn't mean that its not true. The Hamas charter is pretty clear and apologists like yourself would love for it to just go away.

    Happy reading and happy 'debunking'
    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

    Hint: Search for the word Jew and see what it says about them.


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    #398
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Just because you use the word debunked doesn't mean that its not true. The Hamas charter is pretty clear and apologists like yourself would love for it to just go away.
    ............

    That's a rabbit hole I don't care to go down.

    If you can explain to me the relevance of IS, I'd discuss that with you however, as it would be news to me.

    At any stage are you going to address Israeli colonialism in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem?


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    #399
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    jank wrote: »
    Hamas is a terrorist organisation that is recognised as such by the international community (including the EU) who's aim is the destruction of Israel. Launching rockets into Israel is part of this strategy albeit poor one as many are also Islamists who believe in 99 virgins and all that.

    All, I see here is an attempt to legitimise their actions by repeatedly waving your arms and saying "Israel are bad, Israel are bad..."
    Why do IS exist and does that excuse their grotesque behaviour?

    The actions of the Israeli government are just as reprehensible as that of hamas (a grotesque terrorist organisation). They are just much better at PR, have better technology and resources, and complete impunity to act without any effective accountability for their despicable and criminal behaviour.

    P.S. This is in no way to suggest that Hamas's actions are in any way justifiable. Rather it is to say that Israel's behaviour is equally unjustifiable.


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    #400
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    jank wrote: »
    Just because you use the word debunked doesn't mean that its not true. The Hamas charter is pretty clear and apologists like yourself would love for it to just go away.

    Happy reading and happy 'debunking'
    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

    Hint: Search for the word Jew and see what it says about them.

    I've read the charter in full. It doesn't say that all Jews should be killed.

    Is that a debunking, or just simple written comprehension?


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    #401
    Conas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭Conas


    jank wrote: »
    Yes, Jews are to blame much like gays are to blame for being killed in Muslim countries for being gay and women are to blame for being raped by men, maybe for wearing a short dress!

    A Jew boy goes home and tells his parents he's Gay he won't be in the family long and you know it too. Much like the Jews are pushing all this immigration to Europe and America, yet they want Israel to be a Jew only state. As they threw out the Africans a few years back who sought refuge there.

    Israel's warmongering against their Arab neighbours is relentless. Yet when there is a coalition of willing being put together, and boots on the ground are required they run and hide.

    Mod:

    Banned.


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    #402
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Conas wrote: »
    A Jew boy goes home and tells his parents he's Gay he won't be in the family long and you know it too. Much like the Jews are pushing all this immigration to Europe and America, yet they want Israel to be a Jew only state. As they threw out the Africans a few years back who sought refuge there.

    Israel's warmongering against their Arab neighbours is relentless. Yet when there is a coalition of willing being put together, and boots on the ground are required they run and hide.

    I think you're a little confused in your broad tirade there. They're relentless warmongers who run and hide?

    Gays fare better in Jewish communities than Arab ones, even taking account the undoubted homophobia of Orthodox communities.


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    #403
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    alastair wrote: »
    I've read the charter in full. It doesn't say that all Jews should be killed.

    Is that a debunking, or just simple written comprehension?

    The other thing about the "Hamas charter" you've got to remember is that it was drawn up by a cleric who, while sharing some of Hamas' beliefs, was nevera member, and Hamas never adopted it, despite some attempt by factions within to do so. Using the "charter" to malign Hamas is stooping as low as bringing up the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to malign Jews.

    Oh, and if Israel were so worried about Hamas why did the state allow the Mossad to create them? Hamas was set up using Israeli state funding to split the then secular PLO.


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    #404
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,753 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Conas wrote: »
    A Jew boy goes home and tells his parents he's Gay he won't be in the family long and you know it too.
    On average, he'd fare much better than in a Muslim family I would wager can state with near certainty.
    Much like the Jews are pushing all this immigration to Europe and America, yet they want Israel to be a Jew only state.
    Seriously where are you getting this from? Stormfront?

    Firstly, we don't need Jews to push immigration and multiculturalism on our peoples, we're unfortunately doing a very good job of that ourselves. :mad: Of course despite all the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories I've read about Jews pushing multiculturalism on Europe, none of them have every explained how destroying Europe will help Israel or Zionism or anyone else for that matter.

    I suggest you start by looking at the Demographics of Israel. Israel is only about 75% Jewish, with ~20% being Israeli-Arabs (full citizens of Israel) and the balance being mostly Druze. As that 75% number has been falling over the years, it's a reasonble guess that Israel will cease to be a Jewish state eventually.
    As they threw out the Africans a few years back who sought refuge there.
    Which Africans are these? You wouldn't happen to be referring to the Beta Israel community by any chance?

    Your claim that Israel "threw out the Africans" would come as a major surprise to Pnina Tamano-Shata, a member of the Beta Israel (Ethiopian Jewish) community and a MK in the Israeli parliament.
    Israel's warmongering against their Arab neighbours is relentless. Yet when there is a coalition of willing being put together, and boots on the ground are required they run and hide.
    There is not a shred of evidence that Israel seeks anything other than the territory it claims. I exclude of course the widespread propoganda that Jews REALLY want to drink Muslim/Christian childrens blood with the Matzos and steal their eyes.

    As to Israel not joining a "coalition of the willing" we both know that not only does Israel have its own problems, but that the presence of Israeli troops in, for example, Muslim countries would incite so much anger among the locals as to doom any such mission.


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    #405
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    That's a rabbit hole I don't care to go down.

    Why so? Has the Hamas leadership changed its mandate lately? They certainly have no made an effort to distance themselves from such rhetoric.


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    #406
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Why so? Has the Hamas leadership changed its mandate lately? They certainly have no made an effort to distance themselves from such rhetoric.

    You're sure on that now?

    Going to talk about Israeli expansionism over the last half century any time soon? Or is it going to be "Hamas, Hamas, Hamas" for the foreseeable future?


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    #407
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Just breaking: UK MPs have voted 274 to 12 in favour of recognising state of Palestine.


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    #408
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »
    You're sure on that now?

    Israel are well able to defend themsleves, no need for me to add to that. However, it is interesting apologists for Hamas never factor in their rabid anti-antisemitism into the overall equation


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    #409
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    jank wrote: »
    Israel are well able to defend themsleves, no need for me to add to that. However, it is interesting apologists for Hamas never factor in their rabid anti-antisemitism into the overall equation

    Who and how many people here have apologised for or defended Hamas?

    Like the IDF you are happy to use Hamas, however, to deflect the discussion away from Israeli conquest of land and collective punishment of a civilian population, topics you routinely run away from showing you have absolutely no defence or argument to make.


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    #410
    DarkyHughes
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,393 ✭✭✭DarkyHughes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    A small bit of research would show you that they have.

    And I'd hardly call katyusha rockets and Iranian-supplied missiles "fireworks"

    I had done research I forget what his name was but some professor described the so called rockets Hamas were using as upgraded fireworks.

    How are Hamas supplied with these Iranian-supplied missiles seen as israel controls the airspace around, Gaza, the sea around it, have military all around it & now the Egypt President (military dictator) have closed the tunnels from Egypt to Gaza.

    There's a real simple way to end this conflict, war, massacre, - Israel stop building on the West bank, remove the settlers there & lift the blockade on on Gaza & create a state of Palestine. That was the original plan in the first place 70 years ago. To have a Zionist state & Palestinian state.


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    #411
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Just breaking: UK MPs have voted 274 to 12 in favour of recognising state of Palestine.

    Debate here:



    Includes Churchill's grandson Nick Soames speaking in favour, saying Israel has not complied with Balfour Declaration.

    @ 27:42, Richard Ottaway Conservative MP speaks movingly of his support for Israel over many decades and also what he sees as its betrayal of its supporters (by invading Gaza) and says "if it {Israel} is losing people like me, it is going to be losing a lot of people".

    Link to Hansard:

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141013/debtext/141013-0002.htm

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201415/cmhansrd/cm141013/debtext/141013-0003.htm


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    #412
    Palmach
    Registered Users Posts: 974 ✭✭✭Palmach


    DarkyHughes wrote: »
    That was the original plan in the first place 70 years ago. To have a Zionist state & Palestinian state.

    And who rejected that plan and every subsequent plan? It's a one pointer.


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    #413
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    ANyone stlill saying Hamas don't use children as shields?

    http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-exclusive-video-hamas-rocket-launching-pad-near-gaza-homes-un-building/


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    #414
    Areyouwell
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Areyouwell


    MakeEmLaugh wrote: »
    How should Israel defend itself?

    Acting like a civilised democracy instead of pretending to be one would be nice. Respecting the UN, its charters and its members. Instead of targeting them and murdering them would be equally nice. Maybe ending their bloodlust for taking the lives of so many innocent Palestinian children. And probably most important of all, if they could hack out the cancerous hate filled tumour of Zionism from their State. Their country, the region and the world would be a safer, happier place.


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    #415
    MrHogan35
    Registered Users Posts: 8 ✭MrHogan35


    No nation has ever got their freedom from begging to the UN or Anybody the only thing the Jews understand is the Gun
    or Rocket just like the Criminals in the Dail the Lowlife Arab regimes are the Reason Israel Still Excists the Jews in Israel
    do what they do because the Sisi,s and the King Hussein of the world in Egypt & Jordan are worse than any Fanatical Hilltop
    Settler jew.

    How can 5.7 Jews beat Nearly 400 million Arabs the Reason is the Arab Regimes are Armed Funded and Trained by the West
    to keep the Arab populations in Order the Very same reason why the British let a Phony ''Republic of Ireland'' be Born we are
    still ruled by the british and their laws only the Flag is Different the criminals in the Dail are more against a united Ireland
    than the British are themselves just like the Arab regimes are more Zionist than the Jews now the west is once again trying
    to Keep their Phony Invisible Boarders Intact once again.


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    #416
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    MrHogan35 wrote: »
    No nation has ever got their freedom from begging to the UN or Anybody the only thing the Jews understand is the Gun
    or Rocket just like the Criminals in the Dail the Lowlife Arab regimes are the Reason Israel Still Excists the Jews in Israel
    do what they do because the Sisi,s and the King Hussein of the world in Egypt & Jordan are worse than any Fanatical Hilltop
    Settler jew.

    How can 5.7 Jews beat Nearly 400 million Arabs the Reason is the Arab Regimes are Armed Funded and Trained by the West
    to keep the Arab populations in Order the Very same reason why the British let a Phony ''Republic of Ireland'' be Born we are
    still ruled by the british and their laws only the Flag is Different the criminals in the Dail are more against a united Ireland
    than the British are themselves just like the Arab regimes are more Zionist than the Jews now the west is once again trying
    to Keep their Phony Invisible Boarders Intact once again.

    Any chance you could rephrase any of that so it is intelligible to others? Not being smart but that is a rant of 1st class proportions and I can't decide whetehr I agree/disagree/ or am neutral to your views.


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    #417
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    Areyouwell wrote: »
    Acting like a civilised democracy instead of pretending to be one would be nice. Respecting the UN, its charters and its members. Instead of targeting them and murdering them would be equally nice. Maybe ending their bloodlust for taking the lives of so many innocent Palestinian children. And probably most important of all, if they could hack out the cancerous hate filled tumour of Zionism from their State. Their country, the region and the world would be a safer, happier place.


    You mean like these guys??

    http://www.france24.com/en/20140805-...s-un-building/


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    #418
    SeanW
    Registered Users Posts: 8,753 ✭✭✭SeanW


    seanaway wrote: »
    Any chance you could rephrase any of that so it is intelligible to others? Not being smart but that is a rant of 1st class proportions and I can't decide whetehr I agree/disagree/ or am neutral to your views.
    I think I can translate that into English. Maybe.
    MrHogan35Paraphrasing wrote:
    The "Jews" (i.e. not Zionists, Jews) are evil conquerers that only understand force used against them (which necessarily is always defensive).

    The only reason Israel still exists and Jews still live in the holy land is because the horrible evil Arab dictators are more Zionistic than the Jew themselves and they are trained by the West (another evil entity) to keep their people down.

    This is somehow connected to the Republic of Ireland which is totally illegitimate, and is a vassal of the United Kingdom which REALLY governs our affairs even though the 26 counties are a totally separate entity with a totally different statue book. The "criminals" in the Dail can be described as such because they do not seek a 32 county Ireland.

    Which has something, somehow to do with evil Jews

    Needless to say I disagree with pretty much everything there.

    [MOD]As a general rule, FYP-style posting is actionable - in this case, the complete paraphrase is acceptable, since it could equally well have been posted as an unquoted paraphrase, and that it is a paraphrase is made abundantly clear.[/MOD]


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    #419
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Al Aqsa mosque has been closed by the Zionists.


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    #420
    seanaway
    Registered Users Posts: 646 ✭✭✭seanaway


    MrHogan35 wrote: »
    No nation has ever got their freedom from begging to the UN or Anybody the only thing the Jews understand is the Gun
    or Rocket just like the Criminals in the Dail the Lowlife Arab regimes are the Reason Israel Still Excists the Jews in Israel
    do what they do because the Sisi,s and the King Hussein of the world in Egypt & Jordan are worse than any Fanatical Hilltop
    Settler jew.

    How can 5.7 Jews beat Nearly 400 million Arabs the Reason is the Arab Regimes are Armed Funded and Trained by the West
    to keep the Arab populations in Order the Very same reason why the British let a Phony ''Republic of Ireland'' be Born we are
    still ruled by the british and their laws only the Flag is Different the criminals in the Dail are more against a united Ireland
    than the British are themselves just like the Arab regimes are more Zionist than the Jews now the west is once again trying
    to Keep their Phony Invisible Boarders Intact once again.

    I have decided to admire this stance. Not because I agree with any of it but because it is the first time I have ever come across anyone who can link Arab,Israeli, Irish, Western and UK history,policies, and politics and be against ALL of them in the one go.

    The only thing I don't understand is why the Russians have been left out?

    The Russians armed many of the Arab states during the cold war. Many of these countries still have some Russian arms. Iraq had Russian weapons during the ill-fated invasion of Kuwait and still had them when Saddam was overthrown.


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    #421
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    One way Israel might avoid 'defending' itself is this sort of thing

    "Israel has faced strong criticism at the UN Security Council over plans to build homes in occupied East Jerusalem.

    UN political chief Jeffrey Feltman said that the settlements would raise "grave doubts" about Israel's plans for durable peace with Palestinians.

    The meeting was called after the Israeli PM's office ordered plans for over 1,000 new units to be advanced."
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29801841


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