How should Israel defend itself?

SeanW

Harold Weiss wrote: »

You are deluding yourself if you think Jewish people aspire to ever having a secular state of Israel.

Israel is predominantly white and they want to keep it that way.

You are perpetuating the fantasy Jews are a distinct race when they're just white people with delusions of superiority.
They follow Judaic beliefs and nothing more.

What happens when black Jews go to Israel, do they have right of return?
No, they don't. Why? Because they're black.

Only 75% of Israels' population is Jewish, the other 25% of Israeli citizens are Israeli-Arabs and Druze, all of whom enjoy the full rights of Israeli citizenship.

Of the Jews, only about half are Ashkenazi Jews (this is the white/Ethno-European group)

Your last point is flat out wrong, you should check out Beta Israel, (Ethiopian Jews) they've had the right of return since 1975. Israel has also elected a member of Beta Israel to the Knessett.

SeanW

Remind me again, how many black people are there in the Dail vs. the Knessett?

jank

SeanW wrote: »

Remind me again, how many black people are there in the Dail vs. the Knessett?

No, no,no. Get with the program. Only Israel have to live up to my expectations of what a model nation state should be like. States like Ireland are exempt to my thought experiment.

Nodin

SeanW wrote: »

Only 75% of Israels' population is Jewish, the other 25% of Israeli citizens are Israeli-Arabs and Druze, all of whom enjoy the full rights of Israeli citizenship.

.........................

Not really that simple I'm afraid.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91847693&postcount=303

For Reals

jank wrote: »

No, no,no. Get with the program. Only Israel have to live up to my expectations of what a model nation state should be like. States like Ireland are exempt to my thought experiment.

Because everybody on here is tripping over themselves to proclaim Ireland the great bastion of freedom and civil rights?
Yeah us anti-genocide crowd never cry foul about problems at home:rolleyes:

Last resort of the desparate debator, 'Them der is as bad as us!'.

jank

For Reals wrote: »

Because everybody on here is tripping over themselves to proclaim Ireland the great bastion of freedom and civil rights?
Yeah us anti-genocide crowd never cry foul about problems at home:rolleyes:

Last resort of the desparate debator, 'Them der is as bad as us!'.

The terms glasshouses and stones come to mind....
Anti-genocide crowd? Is this is what pro-Palestine people all themselves now? Pathetic tbh. Does that mean pro-Israel are pro-genocide?

obplayer

This from Bill Maher sums it up.

Black Swan

obplayer wrote: »

This from Bill Maher sums it up.

MOD: Politics is a discussion forum, not a news dump or talk show forwarding forum. All news links, vids, etc., require discussion of content not just links, or "This from Bill Maher sums it up."

wes

obplayer wrote: »

This from Bill Maher sums it up.

There was a thread on this already, and posters on there pointed out the many, many issues with what Bill Maher said:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057253216

For Reals

jank wrote: »

The terms glasshouses and stones come to mind....
Anti-genocide crowd? Is this is what pro-Palestine people all themselves
now? Pathetic tbh. Does that mean pro-Israel are pro-genocide?

Glass houses? I've not butchered any innocent families and driven them from there homes.
Pro Israeli government is pro genocide.
I'm anti-genocide. There are lots of great Jewish folk. You have to separate the individual from the actions of others. I won't be so ignorant as to write off an entire people or be okay with innocents suffering because of any criminal actions of it's government or a group claiming to represent them. Y'know the exact opposite of the Israeli government.
So don't tar every Israeli with the blooded murderous hands of it's government.

obplayer

For Reals wrote: »

Glass houses? I've not butchered any innocent families and driven them from there homes.
Pro Israeli government is pro genocide.
I'm anti-genocide. There are lots of great Jewish folk. You have to separate the individual from the actions of others. I won't be so ignorant as to write off an entire people or be okay with innocents suffering because of any criminal actions of it's government or a group claiming to represent them. Y'know the exact opposite of the Israeli government.
So don't tar every Israeli with the blooded murderous hands of it's government.

A thousand people killed is not genocide, not even an attempt at genocide. Rwanda was a serious attempt; Cambodia under Pol Pot was genocide; Kosovo would have been genocide if the Serbs had got their way (hint, rounding up people en masse and massacring them is a good step towards genocide). A thousand people killed because either they were launching rockets at another country or were unlucky enough to live beside people who were is a tragedy, genocide it is not.

Usjes

MakeEmLaugh wrote: »

Much has been written in the past few weeks on the deaths of Palestinians by Israeli forces. I find it extremely distressing to see the footage of children being treated after Israeli strikes.

Nevertheless, I consider myself pro-Israel in that I am pro the continued existence of Israel as a democratic state in the Middle East, with much better treatment of LGBT people and woman than they would have in the Palestinian territories.

I do think the response of Israel has been excessive and calamitous for their international reputation.

However, how best is Israel to defend itself against huge numbers of rockets that have been fired at it from Gaza (13,000 since 2001, which amounts to about $10.4 million US)?

I ask this sincerely. How best is Israel to deal with the rockets that are fired at it, for the sake of peace?

Well I suspect you are trolling but on the off-chance that you are just ignorant I will bite. The way for Israel to protect itself from rocket fire is to stop commiting crimes against Palestinians whose only effective response is rocket fire.
In case you hadn't noticed Hamas had rigoroursly enforced a ceasfire which meant that Israel had perfect protection from rocket fire until the outbreak of the recent hostilities. Israel broke the terms of this ceasfire by mass arrests of Palestinians and a brutal military operation which resulted in the deaths innocent Palestinians in the Occupied West Bank. This operation was in response to the murders of 3 Israeli colonists. Rather than instigating a normal police investigation Netenyahu opted for the military option (contrast this with the investigation into the murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir who was burnt alive in retaliation by Jewish extremists; why no brutal military operation to intern known Jewish right-wing extremists? Just a nice peaceful police investigation).

So in summary, the reason I suspect you of trolling is that I would say your question is equivalent to:
How does an on-the-run bank robber/murderer/paedophile protect himself from being continually hounded by his victims seeking retribution ?
The answer is simple, if you dont want your victims to seek redress by any means then dont commit crimes against them in the first place.

On a side note, I have a question for all apologists for the Israeli régime to ponder. You generally try to deflect blame from Israel for all the civilian deaths in Gaza by saying that it is Hamas who is most responsible for their deaths by firing rockets which they know will draw a lethal Israeli retaliation. Does the same argument not apply to the three murdered colonists? By your logic are their parents not the people most responsible for their deaths by allowing the Israeli state to use their children as human shields to try to hold the lands that they have illegaly ceased by military force ? Or is victim blaming only applied to native victims and not when the victims are colonists? I mean what parent in their right mind brings their children into a war-zone? Unlike the families confined by Israel to the Gaza ghetto the colonist families decide to move to the illegally occupied territories!

Finally, on a personal note, MakeEmLaugh, I find it particluarly sad that you frame you support for Israel in the context of their treatment of LGBT people. Would you have happily supported the atrocities of Pol Pot, Apartheid-era S.A. , <insert random vile régime>, as long as they treated the LGBT community well ? Being happy to support evil régimes as long as they treat you well makes you seem like a very sad and cowardly human being, willing to throw other minorities under the bus as long as you are safe. Really it makes you no better than those who persecute the LGBT community.

For Reals

obplayer wrote: »

A thousand people killed is not genocide, not even an attempt at genocide. Rwanda was a serious attempt; Cambodia under Pol Pot was genocide; Kosovo would have been genocide if the Serbs had got their way (hint, rounding up people en masse and massacring them is a good step towards genocide). A thousand people killed because either they were launching rockets at another country or were unlucky enough to live beside people who were is a tragedy, genocide it is not.

Since the inception of the state of Israel it has been non-stop, be it land grabbing and the destruction of homes, the killing of innocents and the current escalation. Your figures are from the recent months. Do you believe Hamas were in every house bulldozed to make way for new settlements? Do you believe Israel will stop short of wiping out any notable trace of the Palestinians? They've not stopped since the 40's. Maybe holocaust is a more suitable turn of phrase.

obplayer

For Reals wrote: »

Since the inception of the state of Israel it has been non-stop, be it land grabbing and the destruction of homes, the killing of innocents and the current escalation. Your figures are from the recent months. Do you believe Hamas were in every house bulldozed to make way for new settlements? Do you believe Israel will stop short of wiping out any notable trace of the Palestinians? They've not stopped since the 40's. Maybe holocaust is a more suitable turn of phrase.

If they have not stopped since the 40s why are there any Palestinians still alive? If Israel wanted to kill all the Palestinians they could have done so decades ago. They haven't.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

If they have not stopped since the 40s why are there any Palestinians still alive? If Israel wanted to kill all the Palestinians they could have done so decades ago. They haven't.

I believe people are referring to the wider definition of genocide - "intent to destroy" and "in part" in the article linked below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#In_part

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

I believe people are referring to the wider definition of genocide - "intent to destroy" and "in part" in the article linked below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide#In_part

I quote...
'The aim of the Genocide Convention is to prevent the intentional destruction of entire human groups, and the part targeted must be significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole'

From

The Pulse of the Middle East

“The increase of the population in the Gaza Strip is excessive; it is very large. Between 2000 and 2013, the number of Gazans increased by more than 687,000 people.”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/04/gaza-growing-population-challences.html##ixzz3CrPCv2CI

Israel doesn't seem to be having a significant impact on the population of Gaza according to Palestinian journalist Mohammed Othman of Palestine Pulse, does it? How does this even come remotely close to the Genocide Convention definition?

BlaasForRafa

obplayer wrote: »

I quote...
'The aim of the Genocide Convention is to prevent the intentional destruction of entire human groups, and the part targeted must be significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole'

From

The Pulse of the Middle East

“The increase of the population in the Gaza Strip is excessive; it is very large. Between 2000 and 2013, the number of Gazans increased by more than 687,000 people.”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/04/gaza-growing-population-challences.html##ixzz3CrPCv2CI

Israel doesn't seem to be having a significant impact on the population of Gaza according to Palestinian journalist Mohammed Othmanof Palestine Pulse, does it? How does this even come remotely close to the Genocide Convention definition?

In fact, according to palestinian sources, the population of Gaza actually increased during Operation Protective Edge. Some genocide indeed. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13333-4500-palestinian-newborns-in-gaza-during-the-israeli-aggression

Genocide is just an overused buzzword these days.

obplayer

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

In fact, according to palestinian sources, the population of Gaza actually increased during Operation Protective Edge. Some genocide indeed. https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13333-4500-palestinian-newborns-in-gaza-during-the-israeli-aggression

Genocide is just an overused buzzword these days.

You are right to an extent but it is a very emotive one, it should be reserved for situations which deserve it. (Especially by people who quote from the Geneva Conventions).

jank

obplayer wrote: »

If they have not stopped since the 40s why are there any Palestinians still alive? If Israel wanted to kill all the Palestinians they could have done so decades ago. They haven't.

They have been at it for 70 years apparently, yet the Palestinian population has increased more than 4 fold since. Worse.genocide.ever. I would ask for a refund to be honest.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

I quote...

(...................) definition?

Which, if you look at land seizures, exclusion zones and killings overall over the last 50 years within the broader definition of genocide - according to some - fits. However this is an argument for others, as I never use the term in connection to the Palestinian question - it leads to pointless quibbling like this.

For Reals

obplayer wrote: »

I quote...
'The aim of the Genocide Convention is to prevent the intentional destruction of entire human groups, and the part targeted must be significant enough to have an impact on the group as a whole'

From

The Pulse of the Middle East

It's in process. I'll run with holocaust in the interim.

jank wrote: »

They have been at it for 70 years apparently, yet the Palestinian population has increased more than 4 fold since. Worse.genocide.ever. I would ask for a refund to be honest.

Well as you seem to take the topic so lightly, there's no point, enjoy the butchering.

For Reals

obplayer wrote: »

You are right to an extent but it is a very emotive one, it should be reserved for situations which deserve it. (Especially by people who quote from the Geneva Conventions).

Yeah when the larger nations begin to lose money, it really gets serious :rolleyes:

obplayer

For Reals wrote: »

It's in process. I'll run with holocaust in the interim.

Ok, I guess I'll have to accept your definition of holocaust. All I'll add is that it seems to me to be a funny old kind of holocaust that leaves more people alive after it leaves than it found when it arrived.

MakeEmLaugh

Usjes wrote: »

Well I suspect you are trolling but on the off-chance that you are just ignorant I will bite. The way for Israel to protect itself from rocket fire is to stop commiting crimes against Palestinians whose only effective response is rocket fire.
In case you hadn't noticed Hamas had rigoroursly enforced a ceasfire which meant that Israel had perfect protection from rocket fire until the outbreak of the recent hostilities. Israel broke the terms of this ceasfire by mass arrests of Palestinians and a brutal military operation which resulted in the deaths innocent Palestinians in the Occupied West Bank. This operation was in response to the murders of 3 Israeli colonists. Rather than instigating a normal police investigation Netenyahu opted for the military option (contrast this with the investigation into the murder of Mohammed Abu Khdeir who was burnt alive in retaliation by Jewish extremists; why no brutal military operation to intern known Jewish right-wing extremists? Just a nice peaceful police investigation).

So in summary, the reason I suspect you of trolling is that I would say your question is equivalent to:
How does an on-the-run bank robber/murderer/paedophile protect himself from being continually hounded by his victims seeking retribution ?
The answer is simple, if you dont want your victims to seek redress by any means then dont commit crimes against them in the first place.

On a side note, I have a question for all apologists for the Israeli régime to ponder. You generally try to deflect blame from Israel for all the civilian deaths in Gaza by saying that it is Hamas who is most responsible for their deaths by firing rockets which they know will draw a lethal Israeli retaliation. Does the same argument not apply to the three murdered colonists? By your logic are their parents not the people most responsible for their deaths by allowing the Israeli state to use their children as human shields to try to hold the lands that they have illegaly ceased by military force ? Or is victim blaming only applied to native victims and not when the victims are colonists? I mean what parent in their right mind brings their children into a war-zone? Unlike the families confined by Israel to the Gaza ghetto the colonist families decide to move to the illegally occupied territories!

Finally, on a personal note, MakeEmLaugh, I find it particluarly sad that you frame you support for Israel in the context of their treatment of LGBT people. Would you have happily supported the atrocities of Pol Pot, Apartheid-era S.A. , <insert random vile régime>, as long as they treated the LGBT community well ? Being happy to support evil régimes as long as they treat you well makes you seem like a very sad and cowardly human being, willing to throw other minorities under the bus as long as you are safe. Really it makes you no better than those who persecute the LGBT community.

What does it have to do with treating me well?

Do you think the only reason I would oppose LGBT persecution is if I was gay myself?

seanaway

''The way for Israel to protect itself from rocket fire is to stop commiting crimes against Palestinians whose only effective response is rocket fire. ''

Not very effective judging by the way the people of the Gaza strip have lost so much.

Well done Hamas et al.

obplayer

A woman describes living in Gaza. She is not complimentary about the men there. So how do we deal with men who deliberately place women at risk of their lives?

obplayer

A retired British Colonel, Col. Richard Kemp, explains his views on the war in Gaza. I agree with him, if you do not you are welcome to explain your reasons.

glued

obplayer wrote: »

A retired British Colonel, Col. Richard Kemp, explains his views on the war in Gaza. I agree with him, if you do not you are welcome to explain your reasons.

He's wrong. The first line is pretty hilarious too. As if being a part of the British Army somehow enhances his outlook on the Middle East. The war on Gaza in 2014 was of course a large responsibility of Hamas and other Islamist militant groups but this retired colonel would be doing well to educate himself correctly on the reasons behind the war and previous attacks from Palestine preceding the war. He forgets that Israel is often the aggressor in the region. Their response is overkill and it only serves to create more young Palestinian boys who hate the state of Israel. Unlike Boko Haram in Nigeria and Cameroon these young boys have a very valid reason to pick up mortars, rockets, guns, stones and do anything they can to regain the small amount of pride their aggressive neighbour deprives these people of everyday.

Israel is making it very easy for the young generation of Palestinians to join groups such as the IJM. As the younger generation of Israel gets more moderate and the older generation, who think the likes of Netanyahu are too soft on Palestine,die out Israel will rue the choices and decisions of their fathers and grandfathers. Not once in its existence has Israel made an honest attempt at peace. They want to continue their illegal annexing of Palestinian territory at any cost.

I find it very hard to believe that anyone of sound mind can see how Israel are right. As the power in the region they should be making much more of an effort for a peaceful solution but such are the politics in Israel that even if any Israeli PM wanted to make such a concession they would be voted out by the time the ink dried on the paper.

johnnyskeleton

glued wrote: »

They want to continue their illegal annexing of Palestinian territory at any cost.

So why have they not annexed it completely yet and expelled or killed all the non Israelis in the region?

Nodin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So why have they not annexed it completely yet and expelled or killed all the non Israelis in the region?

Because that - done hastily - would risk alienating the US. As it is they apply slow drip ethnic cleansing, taking land here and there, driving out and expelling to other areas Palestinians etc as they go. 'Cleanse as you build' one might call it.
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/taking_over_land
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/expulsions_of_communities


This can be done by other means than main force eg
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/social_security
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/revocation_of_residency
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/discriminating_policy
make life so harsh and impossible for people that they leave.