How should Israel defend itself?

johnnyskeleton

Nodin wrote: »

Because that - done hastily - would risk alienating the US. As it is they apply slow drip ethnic cleansing, taking land here and there, driving out and expelling to other areas Palestinians etc as they go. 'Cleanse as you build' one might call it.
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/taking_over_land
http://www.btselem.org/area_c/expulsions_of_communities


This can be done by other means than main force eg
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/social_security
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/revocation_of_residency
http://www.btselem.org/jerusalem/discriminating_policy
make life so harsh and impossible for people that they leave.

Which is why they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and havemt sought to physically occupy land there since? Surely if Israel were so bad the usa wouldve already broken ties with them? I also think a lot of people overestimate the significance of us monetary and political support

Nodin

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Which is why they unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and havemt sought to physically occupy land there since? Surely if Israel were so bad the usa wouldve already broken ties with them? I also think a lot of people overestimate the significance of us monetary and political support

Being shielded by the last super power means safety from UN backed sanctions, prevents harsh treatment by the EU - I'd suggest you underestimate it.

The US supported Apartheid South Africa and Ian Smith's Rhodesia for many years, the 80's saw some remarkably nasty alliances in Latin America, both far harder 'sells' than Israel. I'm not sure why you mean by "If Israel were so bad". Do you doubt that a program of colonisation is ongoing?

Gaza only held 8,000 settlers. Sharon deemed the resources required to maintain them better spent elsewhere, and he could gain a diplomatic coup by withdrawing unilaterally.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/3720176.stm

Brian Shanahan

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So why have they not annexed it completely yet and expelled or killed all the non Israelis in the region?

For the same reason the Nazis kept the General Government in south-east Poland. It is a lot easier to demonise and later get rid of the untermenschen if you can propogandize them as lawless savages.

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

For the same reason the Nazis kept the General Government in south-east Poland. It is a lot easier to demonise and later get rid of the untermenschen if you can propogandize them as lawless savages.

Sorry, as much as I admire your views and posts on other subjects I have to ask do you really believe that Israel, with it's people's history of a genuine holocaust, would do this?. "get rid of the untermenschen ". Really? I am neither Jewish nor Israeli but I find it impossible to believe that a country with the holocaust (Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/) museum would allow this to be a part of their government policy. I hope you are using hyperbole and have simply over-stepped the mark.

wes

obplayer wrote: »

Sorry, as much as I admire your views and posts on other subjects I have to ask do you really believe that Israel, with it's people's history of a genuine holocaust, would do this?. "get rid of the untermenschen ". Really? I am neither Jewish nor Israeli but I find it impossible to believe that a country with the holocaust (Yad Vashem http://www.yadvashem.org/) museum would allow this to be a part of their government policy.

Its also a country where someone built a "Museum of Tolerance" over ancient Muslim graves.

The existence of Yad Vashem, didn't stop Israel from supporting the racist Apartheid regime in South Africa. Didn't stop the most recent slaughter in Gaza either. I could keep going on and on, but the existence of Yad Vashem, hasn't stopped settlement expansion either.

Its a nation founded by ethnic cleansing Palestinians, for the express purpose of setting up a "Jewish" state.

Now, I would not have used the same language myself, but the fact is that Zionists have always viewed Palestinians poorly (even before any conflict existed btw), and at best as obstacles to be removed so as to achieve there own aims of a "Jewish" state. Sure, there are Zionists who even deny Palestinians exist at all to this day. You will even see people say exactly that on threads on here from time to time.

seanaway

wes wrote: »

Its a nation founded by ethnic cleansing Palestinians, for the express purpose of setting up a "Jewish" state.

Think you forget the 1947 UN mandate going back to the foundation. Perhaps you are also forgetting the Arab plan to destroy said nation immediately - without success as usual.

gladrags

' Perhaps you are also forgetting the Arab plan to destroy said nation immediately - without success as usual"

Typical response,and what exactly did Israel do in Palestine recently?

With a lot of success.

The World was watching,while Israel butchered thousands,and the UN was ignored.

Nethanyahu is a tyrant,he is no better than the isis thugs.

wes

seanaway wrote: »

Think you forget the 1947 UN mandate going back to the foundation.

The Palestinian mandate existed long before 1947. I take it your referring to UN general assembly resolution 181. Well, I haven't forgotten it all. If you read the resolution, there is no languages allowing the expulsion of Palestinians.

Secondly, General Assembly resolutions are non-binding to begin with, and Zionists, never adhered to it in anyways, what with the ethnic cleansing and you know grabbing land outside the proposed borders. It really is amazing that you bring this up at all. It was a non-binding resolution, that Zionists ignored themselves, and then there is the fact of the various later binding security council resolutions that Israel is ignoring to this day. Its a laughable thing for you to even bring this up at all.

It is interesting to note who voted in favor of it btw, mostly western (a lot of them with colonies) nations who decided it was totally ok to give someone elses land away to compensate for crimes committed by Nazi Germany. Surely if anyone should have given up some land it should have been the perpetrators of the Holocaust and not Palestinians, who did not murder 6 million Jews.

seanaway wrote: »

Perhaps you are also forgetting the Arab plan to destroy said nation immediately - without success as usual.

Nice of you to leave the fact that before any Arab armies invaded, Zionists had already started expelling Palestinians, and you know grabbing more land outside there borders. If the Arabs armies hadn't invaded, the Palestinians would have likely been completely expelled, and many more would have murdered.

Justin1982

Oh give it a rest with the UN resolutions. Pointless waffle anything to do with the UN in Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Bottom line is that Israeli's/Jews/Zionists wanted to have their own state, they ended up flooding into Palestine and forcefully set up Israel. It wasn't necessarily the most legitimate move but it happened and won't be reversed. One could spend all day arguing that it was Palestinian land they took and one could argue all day that it was Jewish land that the Romans/Arabs took. All pointless.

Israel exists. Israel will defend itself and is defending it. Israel has expanded its borders over time and Palestine probably won't get it all back, no more than Ireland will get back the 6 counties. Palestinians will have to suck it up same as the Irish people like myself have to suck up the loss of the 6 counties, make peace and get on with life.

Stop firing missiles into Israel, stop sending suicide bombers into Israel, stop talking about the destruction of Israel and wiping out the Jews and I think you will see a different Israel emerge even with radical Zionist elements existing in Israel and ex military swelling the ranks of Israeli political classes. The Israeli hard line stems from a real perceived threat to their existence same as the protestant hard line stemmed from a perceived threat to their existence. Israeli's the same as the Protestants of Northern Ireland can act fairly given the right circumstances.

Israel has a fairly sophisticated legal system and the Jews are not particularly renowned for their stupidity, quiet the opposite.

Nodin

Justin1982 wrote: »

.....................
Stop firing missiles into Israel, stop sending suicide bombers into Israel, stop talking about the destruction of Israel and wiping out the Jews and I think you will see a different Israel emerge even with radical Zionist elements existing in Israel and ex military swelling the ranks of Israeli political classes. The Israeli hard line stems from a real perceived threat to their existence same as the protestant hard line stemmed from a perceived threat to their existence. Israeli's the same as the Protestants of Northern Ireland can act fairly given the right circumstances.

...............

This kind of thing has been discredited earlier in the thread, and I see no need to go over it again.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

This kind of thing has been discredited earlier in the thread, and I see no need to go over it again.

It is a valid point. Israel has enemies on all sides that they see as an existential threat. Firing homemade rockets into it will only make things worse.

obplayer

Nodin wrote: »

This kind of thing has been discredited earlier in the thread, and I see no need to go over it again.

Sorry but it hasn't been discredited, it has been argued about.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

It is a valid point. Israel has enemies on all sides that they see as an existential threat. Firing homemade rockets into it will only make things worse.

Obplayer wrote:

Sorry but it hasn't been discredited, it has been argued about.

Israel faces no threat from Jordan or Egypt.

It's odd that a country that thinks its under threat from all sides aids civilian building construction outside its territory in what would be a potential war zone. One might draw the conclusion that the claims and the reality are rather different.

The notion 'if the Palestinians stop Israel will...' leans on the assumption that Israel's actions are in reaction to those of the Palestinians. This turns a blind eye to Israel's desire for land in the West Bank and it's drive to secure Arab East Jerusalem. Israel is colonising these areas and suppressing the population in order to do so. This is an independently operating aggressive act and agenda that predates Hamas and has been on-going for 47 years. The idea that Israel will change course in the face of Palestinian non-violence has been exposed by its behaviour in the West Bank, and is quite frankly laughable.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Israel faces no threat from Jordan or Egypt.

Correct, after beating them numerous times they are wise to not lead their armies to another drubbing. Of course with the Arab Spring turing into an Arab Winter the Israelis have a right to be protective of their borders.

Nodin wrote: »

It's odd that a country that thinks its under threat from all sides aids civilian building construction outside its territory in what would be a potential war zone. One might draw the conclusion that the claims and the reality are rather different.

Are you saying that Israel is not under any threat?

For Reals

Justin1982 wrote: »

Bottom line is that Israeli's/Jews/Zionists wanted to have their own state, they ended up flooding into Palestine and forcefully set up Israel. It wasn't necessarily the most legitimate move but it happened and won't be reversed. One could spend all day arguing that it was Palestinian land they took and one could argue all day that it was Jewish land that the Romans/Arabs took. All pointless.

You're using 'took' a lot there, you should put in a few 'are taking'.
Sadly, had they remained in the initial borders the world probably would have forgotten about it.

Justin1982 wrote: »

Israel exists. Israel will defend itself and is defending it. Israel has expanded its borders over time and Palestine probably won't get it all back, no more than Ireland will get back the 6 counties. Palestinians will have to suck it up same as the Irish people like myself have to suck up the loss of the 6 counties, make peace and get on with life.

How can Israel be defending itself when it is the aggressor?
Let me know your address, seems I can come over with a few pals and take a few rooms in your house and you'll suck it up in the interest of peace.

Justin1982 wrote: »

Stop firing missiles into Israel, stop sending suicide bombers into Israel, stop talking about the destruction of Israel and wiping out the Jews and I think you will see a different Israel emerge even with radical Zionist elements existing in Israel and ex military swelling the ranks of Israeli political classes. The Israeli hard line stems from a real perceived threat to their existence same as the protestant hard line stemmed from a perceived threat to their existence. Israeli's the same as the Protestants of Northern Ireland can act fairly given the right circumstances.

Please stop comparing the North Protestants to the Israeli's. So many holes. Aside from the initial gerrymandering I don't believe any Orange lodge are invading the south and expanding the border every few weeks.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Correct, after beating them numerous times they are wise to not lead their armies to another drubbing. Of course with the Arab Spring turing into an Arab Winter the Israelis have a right to be protective of their borders.?

Rather an odd reply, that seems to weave its way around the point raised in the post its replying to.

Nobody objects overly to Israel defending it's actual borders. The problem is what it does outside them.

jank wrote: »

Are you saying that Israel is not under any threat?

Not in any "existential" manner. It's too powerful. It may face losses from asymmetric warfare, but its not going to be overrun.

DarkyHughes

Nodin wrote: »

Rather an odd reply, that seems to weave its way around the point raised in the post its replying to.

Nobody objects overly to Israel defending it's actual borders. The problem is what it does outside them.



Not in any "existential" manner. It's too powerful. It may face losses from asymmetric warfare, but its not going to be overrun.

Exactly. They only face a threat when their soldiers occupy places they shouldn't be in or settlers move on to land they aren't allowed to live on.

The Hamas upgraded fireworks are pretty useless against such a powerful state. I'm not even sure if they've even killed anybody inside Israel itself.

BlaasForRafa

DarkyHughes wrote: »

The Hamas upgraded fireworks are pretty useless against such a powerful state. I'm not even sure if they've even killed anybody inside Israel itself.

A small bit of research would show you that they have.

And I'd hardly call katyusha rockets and Iranian-supplied missiles "fireworks"

Brian Shanahan

Justin1982 wrote: »

Bottom line is that Israeli's/Jews/Zionists wanted to have their own state, they ended up flooding into Palestine and forcefully set up Israel. It wasn't necessarily the most legitimate move but it happened and won't be reversed. One could spend all day arguing that it was Palestinian land they took and one could argue all day that it was Jewish land that the Romans/Arabs took. All pointless.

You're seriously arguing that Israel has rights to Palestinian territory based on a book of dubious reliability written 2,500 years ago, and a minor kingdom on the edges of the Fertile crescent which lasted at most a couple of hundred years?

Fine then, these should be the soverign borders of Ireland, using the same messed up criteria as yours:


Edit, image taken from here, and darker green shade expanded over lighter green shade by myself

obplayer

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

You're seriously arguing that Israel has rights to Palestinian territory based on a book of dubious reliability written 2,500 years ago, and a minor kingdom on the edges of the Fertile crescent which lasted at most a couple of hundred years?

Fine then, these should be the soverign borders of Ireland, using the same messed up criteria as yours:


Edit, image taken from here, and darker green shade expanded over lighter green shade by myself

No he is saying that however dubious the legitimacy of what happened 70 years ago is, it did happen and we, and the Palestinians, have to live with it. Israel is not going away and any approach to the problem that does not accept that is pointless.

Nodin

obplayer wrote: »

No he is saying that however dubious the legitimacy of what happened 70 years ago is, it did happen and we, and the Palestinians, have to live with it. Israel is not going away and any approach to the problem that does not accept that is pointless.

You'll find it's whats going on at the moment that's the problem.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Rather an odd reply, that seems to weave its way around the point raised in the post its replying to.

Nobody objects overly to Israel defending it's actual borders. The problem is what it does outside them.

They defended their borders during the latest Gaza conflict by stopping the launching of thousands of rockets and destroying tunnels. Glad you didn't have a problem with this.

Nodin wrote: »

Not in any "existential" manner. It's too powerful. It may face losses from asymmetric warfare, but its not going to be overrun.

Correct, Israel doesn't take any crap from anyone. Its a great strength of theirs but also a weakness. However, with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah on their borders and the likes of IS growing in stature they know they have the weapons, the capability and most importantly the will to defend their own citizens from these maniacs.

Gringo180

jank wrote: »

They defended their borders during the latest Gaza conflict by stopping the launching of thousands of rockets and destroying tunnels. Glad you didn't have a problem with this.

And why do they have to defend there borders? Would it be because there illegally occupying another peoples land?

You have to ask yourself why do Hamas only launch homemade rockets into one of there neighbours and not the other one (Egypt)??

Nodin

jank wrote: »

......................

They defended their borders during the latest Gaza conflict by stopping the launching of thousands of rockets and destroying tunnels. Glad you didn't have a problem with this..

A simplification so extreme its nonsensical.

jank wrote: »

......................
Correct, Israel doesn't take any crap from anyone. Its a great strength of theirs but also a weakness. However, with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah on their borders and the likes of IS growing in stature they know they have the weapons, the capability and most importantly the will to defend their own citizens from these maniacs.

A chest thumping bit of provocation that avoids addressing the real issues.

Conas

jank wrote: »

Correct, Israel doesn't take any crap from anyone. Its a great strength of theirs but also a weakness. However, with the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah on their borders and the likes of IS growing in stature they know they have the weapons, the capability and most importantly the will to defend their own citizens from these maniacs.

What a load of rubbish. Hamas doesn't have an Army, Navy or Airforce. It's like Mike Tyson in his prime fighting Mickey Mouse. These are no contests in military terms.

Israel won't have to ever fight ISIS. They'll get the Americans do the fighting for them, or else just drop one of their 300 nukes that they have stashed. They have never joined the coalition in the two Iraq Wars, despite their strong military, and warmongering rhetoric. Instead sat back and watched from the sidelines. Israel's goal is expansion into the land of the Greater Israel which consumes Iraq, Syria, Jordon, etc. Everything that's happening out there now is just perfect for them. Only the dumb thick Goyim can't see through this. I find it hilarious though, most of us Goy with a brain have seen through all this deception long ago.

Nodin

Conas wrote: »

What a load of rubbish. Hamas doesn't have an Army, Navy or Airforce. It's like Mike Tyson in his prime fighting Mickey Mouse. These are no contests in military terms.

Israel won't have to ever fight ISIS. They'll get the Americans do the fighting for them, or else just drop one of their 300 nukes that they have stashed. They have never joined the coalition in the two Iraq Wars, despite their strong military, and warmongering rhetoric. Instead sat back and watched from the sidelines. Israel's goal is expansion into the land of the Greater Israel which consumes Iraq, Syria, Jordon, etc. Everything that's happening out there now is just perfect for them. Only the dumb thick Goyim can't see through this. I find it hilarious though, most of us Goy with a brain have seen through all this deception long ago.

I know of no factual evidence for that claim.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

A simplification so extreme its nonsensical.

Not at all, they defended their borders against rocket attacks, an action that you said is legitimate.

Nodin wrote: »

A chest thumping bit of provocation that avoids addressing the real issues.

Just illustrating that if one lived across the border from a people that was hell bent on genocide I imagine one would have a rather different perspective than one that lives in a safe suburb in Dublin.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Not at all, they defended their borders against rocket attacks, an action that you said is legitimate. .

...which ignores why the rocket attacks took place and the level of the response.

jank wrote: »

Just illustrating that if one lived across the border from a people that was hell bent on genocide I imagine one would have a rather different perspective than one that lives in a safe suburb in Dublin.

Hysterical nonsense which again distracts from the real issues - ie Israeli expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

Memnoch

jank wrote: »

Not at all, they defended their borders against rocket attacks, an action that you said is legitimate.



Just illustrating that if one lived across the border from a people that was hell bent on genocide I imagine one would have a rather different perspective than one that lives in a safe suburb in Dublin.

Let's say a neighbourhood kid takes a swipe at me. He's barely half my size, and his ability to hurt me is limited at best. But in response, instead of simply reporting him to his parents, or even just holding him at arms length, or he'll even giving him a little slap, I decide to go ahead and shoot him in the head.

There is such a thing as proportionality. Israel has used the rocket attacks as an excuse to conquer land and make life as difficult for the Palestinian people as possible. They have engaged in collective punishment of a civilian population which is a heinous war crime and you will find most fair minded people are rightly incensed by this.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

...which ignores why the rocket attacks took place and the level of the response.




Hysterical nonsense which again distracts from the real issues - ie Israeli expansion in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem.

a)Violence is justified I see :rolleyes:
b)Hamas want to kill all Jews, see their mandate.