Beef General Thread

frazzledhome

rangler1 wrote: »

You're thinking of dairying, extra suckler cows doesn't mean extra profit

So I'm led to believe, but the point is the use of grass. Very interesting article 12 tonne of meal per year with it think 160 cattle.

Perhaps just perhaps suckler farms should be run like dairy farms, controlled paddocks and extended rather than extensive grazing. I'm making this comment purely based on what I see from the road and what I read here ie cows calving anytime of the year

rangler1

frazzledhome wrote: »

So I'm led to believe, but the point is the use of grass. Very interesting article 12 tonne of meal per year with it think 160 cattle.

Perhaps just perhaps suckler farms should be run like dairy farms, controlled paddocks and extended rather than extensive grazing. I'm making this comment purely based on what I see from the road and what I read here ie cows calving anytime of the year

I stocked sucklers here at over 1lu/acre for a while, land was too heavy in the bad years, dairy farmers have the opportunity to put in cows in bad weather........do it with sucklers and you risk the calves getting a virus

frazzledhome

rangler1 wrote: »

I stocked sucklers here at over 1lu/acre for a while, land was too heavy in the bad years, dairy farmers have the opportunity to put in cows in bad weather........do it with sucklers and you risk the calves getting a virus

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

moy83

frazzledhome wrote: »

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

Do they go back in during the grazing season usually ?
Alot of suckler farms would have a big lump of a cow doing the damage in wet weather and if they have to go back in its the 200kg calf sucking them that will be vulnerable to a virus
A sacraficial paddock a bit better I suppose

Farmer Pudsey

There is couple of difference between drystock and dairying. Dairying generates money and profit. In a grazing situation when grass gets tight in spring and autumn dairy farmers supplement inside in milking parlour, cows have access to cubicles and maybe supplemented there as well with silage. On some farms cows are supplemented all year around with diet feeders etc.

The general weight of cows is 5-600kgs. In a lot suckler farms cows would average 100kgs heavier. It would not pay to supplement with beef prices and even at that we have no access to byproducts like most of the rest of Europe. Bullocks can be 700kgs outside and as well as heifers can be young cattle that means that as a herd they tend to gallop accross paddocks fields if being fed and this along with troughs can cause serious damage to paddocks. A LU is one suckler cow and calf to 6 months at 6 months a good calf would be around 300kgs. So you could be averaging 800K of carcass weight/LU.

A farmer with 100 dairy cows can afford casual labour to help out and at over 130+ may have virtual fulltime labour. At that stocking rate a beef farmer still cannot afford labour costs. In general supplmentry feeding at grass is not possible or financial viable. The Derrypatrick suckler herd which is relatively dry farm showed the issue with high stocking rates on beef farms. During 2012 early 2013 most issues that arose on it would have financially destroyed most beef farmer.

The real issue is a beef farmers stocked at a high rate running a 21 day rotation will if covers get low have to be prepared to feed ration at grass, this is not like a dairy farm where cows come into a parlour ever day twice a day and have access Spring and Autumn where as a beef farmer stocked at that rate will be feeding that equivlent ration outside in corners of paddocks with cattle galloping across ground to access same. Believe it or not at present bullocks getting a few KGs will walk to troughs and well not push and bully unlike when ground is wet they will gallop and bully and tear up ground.

The other issue during Spring, autumn and wet summers grass utilisation will fall as cattle will be in paddocks 24 hours a day and cattle with empty or partially empty bellies will track ground so even things like strip grazing is not possible. Another thing that farmers that never fed meal outside is soiling grass by amount of dung produced this reduces utilisation as well . Any farmers that fed and finished bulls outside will have noticed this on a 4-5 day paddock system and in this system. Moving troughs is a pain especially in wet weather.

This is exactly the same misconception that dairy farmers are under about the autumn issue with stocking rate with dairy heifers. Supplement outside at that level will not be possible. You can look at actuat stocking rates of LU/HA weight/HA or number of animals/HA and the issue remains clear.

mahoney_j

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

There is couple of difference between drystock and dairying. Dairying generates money and profit. In a grazing situation when grass gets tight in spring and autumn dairy farmers supplement inside in milking parlour, cows have access to cubicles and maybe supplemented there as well with silage. On some farms cows are supplemented all year around with diet feeders etc.

The general weight of cows is 5-600kgs. In a lot suckler farms cows would average 100kgs heavier. It would not pay to supplement with beef prices and even at that we have no access to byproducts like most of the rest of Europe. Bullocks can be 700kgs outside and as well as heifers can be young cattle that means that as a herd they tend to gallop accross paddocks fields if being fed and this along with troughs can cause serious damage to paddocks. A LU is one suckler cow and calf to 6 months at 6 months a good calf would be around 300kgs. So you could be averaging 800K of carcass weight/LU.

A farmer with 100 dairy cows can afford casual labour to help out and at over 130+ may have virtual fulltime labour. At that stocking rate a beef farmer still cannot afford labour costs. In general supplmentry feeding at grass is not possible or financial viable. The Derrypatrick suckler herd which is relatively dry farm showed the issue with high stocking rates on beef farms. During 2012 early 2013 most issues that arose on it would have financially destroyed most beef farmer.

The real issue is a beef farmers stocked at a high rate running a 21 day rotation will if covers get low have to be prepared to feed ration at grass, this is not like a dairy farm where cows come into a parlour ever day twice a day and have access Spring and Autumn where as a beef farmer stocked at that rate will be feeding that equivlent ration outside in corners of paddocks with cattle galloping across ground to access same. Believe it or not at present bullocks getting a few KGs will walk to troughs and well not push and bully unlike when ground is wet they will gallop and bully and tear up ground.

The other issue during Spring, autumn and wet summers grass utilisation will fall as cattle will be in paddocks 24 hours a day and cattle with empty or partially empty bellies will track ground so even things like strip grazing is not possible. Another thing that farmers that never fed meal outside is soiling grass by amount of dung produced this reduces utilisation as well . Any farmers that fed and finished bulls outside will have noticed this on a 4-5 day paddock system and in this system. Moving troughs is a pain especially in wet weather.

This is exactly the same misconception that dairy farmers are under about the autumn issue with stocking rate with dairy heifers. Supplement outside at that level will not be possible. You can look at actuat stocking rates of LU/HA weight/HA or number of animals/HA and the issue remains clear.

As a dairy man with a bit of beef now,but a lot in my dad's time it's very hard to disagree with any of that.as a general comment though I will say that a lot of beef/suckler men make very poor use of grass.there are obvious exceptions.at a wk recently I heard a quote threw out that stuck with me,beef at 4 euro a kg is the same as milk at 23 cent a litre.as a dairy man I couldn't make any money at 23,maby break even.a statement that really shows what a struggle beef farmers have and why there so keen on switching to dairy.

rangler1

frazzledhome wrote: »

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

Never had much problem with the lighter cattle/yearling but they often had to be put in because the sucklers had the whole farm poached

frazzledhome

rangler1 wrote: »

Never had much problem with the lighter cattle/yearling but they often had to be put in because the sucklers had the whole farm poached

Yea, the cow is a heavy beast and add the calf. Could do damage quickly. Would on off cause a lot of pneumonia problems?

frazzledhome

I suppose if you think you can't do it, your probably right.

Ye must concede that grass growing and utilisation must be top priority on all cattle farms. Supplement not substitute.

They guy in the article focused on the solution rather than the problem.

I don't accept that cattle can't be run through a shed for buffer. Not possible on fragmented farms, I know but most around here are 100 acres in one block.

Labour on a 150 cow suckler farm, when would that be required?

GrandSoftDay

frazzledhome wrote: »

Funny a lot of dairy guys used to think their land was wet until they put in good roads and paddocks. I agree its much easier to supplement dairy animals in wet weather but how do we manage our maiden heifers and weanlings?

Given that most suckler farms are on the west coast I would have to disagree to an extent frazzled. At a discussion group last week a few of the lads were saying they had been at one of the derrypatrick open days and they had drained land up there which the fellas in the discussion group said was better than their best silage field. If teagasc want to research and quote figures to the lads in the west than that's where they should be doing their research, they are not comparing like with like. I'm lucky enough in that half of our grazing ground is dry and can graze it fairly early but the other half is wet and it's May most years before you could even think about grazing it, get a bad week in the summer then and it will turn into a garden. A lot of wet land in Clare , Kerry, West Cork, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim, Roscommon and Donegal and this is where the vast majority of suckler farms are. I wish teagasc had found the wettest farm in the whole lot of them and set up their research farm there, At least the results would have applied to the lads farming in these areas.

Farmer Pudsey

First thing yes grass production on beef farms could be improved I am often the fist to say that the biggest issue on beef farms is the attitude that this will not work here. There is much more rushes around nowadays that 40 years ago considering there is better ways of control. Spraying, licking and drainage are effective ways of control.

However there is big difference between one herd of cows who are used to being moved every day and find the way to the parlour by themselves and lie down in cubicles rather than go out in the rain. Than trying to get 2-3 groups of different cattle into a shed and remember they will have to go straight out again. Farmers trying to implement dairying practices to drystock farms is not possibe.

This is whay dairy farmers wondering why beef farmers cannot have cattle out the 10th of Feb when there are often only out for 3-4 hours and then only cows that have calved. I cannot imagine 2 year old fresian bullocks wandering back into a slatted shed after being left out for the first time in 3-4 months

rangler1

frazzledhome wrote: »

I suppose if you think you can't do it, your probably right.

Ye must concede that grass growing and utilisation must be top priority on all cattle farms. Supplement not substitute.

They guy in the article focused on the solution rather than the problem.

I don't accept that cattle can't be run through a shed for buffer. Not possible on fragmented farms, I know but most around here are 100 acres in one block.

Labour on a 150 cow suckler farm, when would that be required?

How much of the €13000 is net profit or is he claiming that he's making an extra €500/cow on 26 cows when good profit monitors are showing about half that.
If a farmer has 40 cows and wants to increase to 60, is it viable to put up housing now for them!!!!!

frazzledhome

rangler1 wrote: »

How much of the €13000 is net profit or is he claiming that he's making an extra €500/cow on 26 cows when good profit monitors are showing about half that.

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

Reggie.

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

Not at all frazzled. All input is welcomed

on the river

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

I Must agree management is key to any success. If all beef farmers took advise from their dairy counterparts then they might be more profitable

GrandSoftDay

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

Well that's a different issue again I suppose! There's lads like that in every corner of the country. I agree though that grassland management is the most important part of whatever enterprise you are at be it dairy, beef or sheep. I know plenty of lads that would rather rent more land than tidy up their own place that has rushes growing over the walls with bad crushes and a few pallets for a gate, madness to be honest.

Damo810

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

All the same around here, large covers with hay bales stuck out for a few weeks in the middle of it. I'd also hate to think of what is in those hay bales too.

Theres a lot of pure muck made into silage bales around here, stuff that 2 months past cutting, a neighbour here cut grass in May, second is already done too, whereas the lads beside him only cut the other day, and that would be regarded as early for them...

I think we're the only ones with a paddock system in place, and that only came about through my constant ****ing nagging, but once it was setup they were amazed at the amount of grass they had compared to a normal year, and we had, by far the heaviest cattle ever on the farm, averaging over .9kg lwg over 400 days with very little meal. Getting them to keep using it on the other hand, is still a huge task, FFS!

I have no doubt production could be doubled on many places around the west, but in all honesty, the first thing I though when I saw your post about growing more grass, was how much more it cost per T/ha and how much extra profit that lead to, along with the extra labour, one has to consider, is it worth it?

rangler1

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

You don't have to go to West Clare to see that, that sort of farming is everywhere, and then I have to tolerate a third of my SFP being transferred to that sort of farming in the next five years.
A lot of hay was made this year with no sheds available to put it in and no customers.....some standard of management

frazzledhome

rangler1 wrote: »

You don't have to go to West Clare to see that, that sort of farming is everywhere, and then I have to tolerate a third of my SFP being transferred to that sort of farming in the next five years.
A lot of hay was made this year with no sheds available to put it in and no customers.....some standard of management

Well, lots of good hay in France!!
True about SFP, disgrace.
I think we should stop for fear of derailing a good thread.

Greengrass1

I think the mentality towards grass is everywhere frazz. On my road when we moved in here one lad had a fine field. Made two cuts if silage off it the yr we came here now its only rushes and boggy. Now go 5 mile over the road to where our heifers are and the lad next to us with sheep/cattle has the best grass I've seen. The grass my heifers would be getting would be inferior to it. And the size of the lambs off it is cruel. Never see such nice ones.
Really is horses for courses. Lads that want to make the most out of what they have and lads that don't want to put the effort in

frazzledhome

Greengrass1 wrote: »

I think the mentality towards grass is everywhere frazz. On my road when we moved in here one lad had a fine field. Made two cuts if silage off it the yr we came here now its only rushes and boggy. Now go 5 mile over the road to where our heifers are and the lad next to us with sheep/cattle has the best grass I've seen. The grass my heifers would be getting would be inferior to it. And the size of the lambs off it is cruel. Never see such nice ones.
Really is horses for courses. Lads that want to make the most out of what they have and lads that don't want to put the effort in

Don't you come over here causing trouble now!

My intention was not to compare dairy and beef, just to make a point on grass management.

Greengrass1

frazzledhome wrote: »

Don't you come over here causing trouble now!

My intention was not to compare dairy and beef, just to make a point on grass management.

No trouble intended
I haven't seen as good grass in my area past a dairy man. Just goes to show if anyone can grow good grass and cut down on meal.

conor t

frazzledhome wrote: »

Wasn't there so can't answer. Found the article interesting and thought it may be of interest to those who weren't. I'd imagine its gross, isn't that the way suckler numbers are reported.

On your comment re West if Ireland I agree land is poorer and more fragmented but not in all cases as you know. Had the pleasure of a great week in West Clare and for the life of me couldn't understand why hay bales were in fields that had been cut 3 weeks before. The reason I say 3 weeks was there was 1200 of a cover and no fert had been spread. Pass a very few places where paddocks were in place and the difference in management was striking. Leaving bales out has nothing to do with wet weather or bad land, its the attitude of the nut behind the wheel

I better depart this thread as I didn't come here to start a row rather to bring the IFJ piece to people's attention.

I'd say the main problem is lads looking at dairy farmers managing grass well and saying 'shur dat wouldn't work here' instead of implementing some improvements like leaving cattle in a paddock for two or three days instead of a week

on the river

conor t wrote: »

I'd say the main problem is lads looking at dairy farmers managing grass well and saying 'shur dat wouldn't work here' instead of implementing some improvements like leaving cattle in a paddock for two or three days instead of a week

That the problem many beef farmers just allow their livestock roam large fields without any strip or paddocks systems. Grass is our cheapest resource yet too many beef farmers buy Vast amount of meal which eats into any profit.

larrymiller

Jesus I think I'm the opposite to every one. Have paddocks and very good rotation. But I'm to mean to buy meal And don't feed it that much 😕

whelan2

on the river wrote: »

That the problem many beef farmers just allow their livestock roam large fields without any strip or paddocks systems. Grass is our cheapest resource yet too many beef farmers buy Vast amount of meal which eats into any profit.

is it not that alot of beef farmers are part time and dont have the time to be looking after grass like a fulltime dairy farmer would. Most beef farmers i know use big fields and wouldnt know how to put up a strip wire

Reggie.

whelan2 wrote: »

is it not that alot of beef farmers are part time and dont have the time to be looking after grass like a fulltime dairy farmer would. Most beef farmers i know use big fields and wouldnt know how to put up a strip wire

That's a bit harsh

whelan2

Reggie. wrote: »

That's a bit harsh

i live with it here, have suggested splitting the big field where sucklers are ,its a no go area.....a few weeks ago i suggest baling a field or 2 on the outfarm as they where gone strong, it was a:eek::eek: reply but we did it anyway and everyday he says that was a great idea look at the lovely grass we have now:)

Reggie.

whelan2 wrote: »

i live with it here, have suggested splitting the big field where sucklers are ,its a no go area.....a few weeks ago i suggest baling a field or 2 on the outfarm as they where gone strong, it was a:eek::eek: reply but we did it anyway and everyday he says that was a great idea look at the lovely grass we have now:)

Yeah smallest field around here are 5 acres

moy83

whelan2 wrote: »

is it not that alot of beef farmers are part time and dont have the time to be looking after grass like a fulltime dairy farmer would. Most beef farmers i know use big fields and wouldnt know how to put up a strip wire

There is definitely an element of that to it W2 , but in fairness a bit of electric fencing is handy enough done and a bit of thought into how its setup could make it a 10 minute job that would be done while you are out counting/checking them in the evening .
Forward grazing for the calves would be a great job aswell that can be as simple as having a section of the fence lifted just enough for the calves to get under and not the cows .
Its hard to put alot of effort into sucklers when the money is so small out of them no matter how efficient you can run them