Beef General Thread

Muckit

Couldn't agree more puds.

Willfarman

I hope farmers don't forget the ministers buffoonery last spring. Am disappointed he didn't get reshuffled off to somewhere else.

manjou

Wondering if all cattle that come of qa farms are ars sold as ga meat even though they dont meet factories spec.Never on qa inspections have been asked age weight or fat cover of cattle on farm.So all cattle on farm are qa.So what should be done is qa and grid should be seperate and all cattle should get bonus regardless if farm is qa.

Willfarman

manjou wrote: »

Wondering if all cattle that come of qa farms are ars sold as ga meat even though they dont meet factories spec.Never on qa inspections have been asked age weight or fat cover of cattle on farm.So all cattle on farm are qa.So what should be done is qa and grid should be seperate and all cattle should get bonus regardless if farm is qa.

It's all sold as QA if the farm is QA. It is farcical.

mf240

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is amazing that the Minister for the Fence could not say anything all spring long in favour of farmers but can now come out to try to save the processors. It was something I suggested on one of the beef threads a months back that as BQAS was no benefit we should arrange a boycott of it.

The factory's and ministers are fast off the mark, cattle that are getting less than 3.5/kg(cows, bulls and O- or less cattle) it is no benefit. These cattle will alaways find a market at that price so why should farmers jump through hoops to produce a product to a premium spec(as opposes to a premium product) and recieve no benefit.

Yes easy know where his loyalties lie. It was the same with horse gate.

I said

Willfarman wrote: »

It's all sold as QA if the farm is QA. It is farcical.

Correct QA is QA no matter what,this overage and underage bull is for the factories to control prices joe public sees the bord bia sign and is sold a lovely story about grass fed irish beef,but he's fcuked if he knows is it a heifer or steer or cow that he's eating.The well know fast food chain that says it uses British and Irish beef is a good thing but the consumer still has no idea what type of beef it is only it's from a QA herd.

nashmach

All of you calling for the abolition of the BBQAS, so how do you propose that the €40 or so extra it gives is reimbursed to farmers?

Or do we just pay less for cattle and thus put everyone along the chain in further difficulty.

Ill thought out move.

_Brian

nashmach wrote: »

All of you calling for the abolition of the BBQAS, so how do you propose that the €40 or so extra it gives is reimbursed to farmers?

Or do we just pay less for cattle and thus put everyone along the chain in further difficulty.

Ill thought out move.

Are lads not just suggesting a sort of protest withdrawal to have the voice of the farmer recognised ?? Or would lads be suggesting it be dropped altogether??

simx

I said wrote: »

Correct QA is QA no matter what,this overage and underage bull is for the factories to control prices joe public sees the bord bia sign and is sold a lovely story about grass fed irish beef,but he's fcuked if he knows is it a heifer or steer or cow that he's eating.The well know fast food chain that says it uses British and Irish beef is a good thing but the consumer still has no idea what type of beef it is only it's from a QA herd.

I'd dread to even think what kind of s**t is in burgers, cows ears, udders and the like I'd reckon

Farmer Pudsey

nashmach wrote: »

All of you calling for the abolition of the BBQAS, so how do you propose that the €40 or so extra it gives is reimbursed to farmers?

Or do we just pay less for cattle and thus put everyone along the chain in further difficulty.

Ill thought out move.

_Brian wrote: »

Are lads not just suggesting a sort of protest withdrawal to have the voice of the farmer recognised ?? Or would lads be suggesting it be dropped altogether??

It is 12c/kg on about 20% of cattle this is the issue about 80% of cattle recieve no QA bonus. I imagine that well over 80% of cattle going into factory's are QA'ed. Over 50% of our beef goes to the UK who'es supermarkets want QA cattle but are not paying for it. The Qa is no longer of benefit to farmers in general so if it is not reformed we should scrap it. It will not be scraped but if we are willing not to take part in it factory's will have to pay for it.

To put it in context I was told that next year farmers will have to pay for the inspection and it will cost 150+. It is my believe that it is a much more practical protest than farmers dancing around the ailes of Irish supermarkets that only take 4-6% of the beef we produce,

I said

nashmach wrote: »

All of you calling for the abolition of the BBQAS, so how do you propose that the €40 or so extra it gives is reimbursed to farmers?

Or do we just pay less for cattle and thus put everyone along the chain in further difficulty.

Ill thought out move.

What is €40 on 25%of all cattle killed still under the QA banner the factories are still getting the other 75% at no extra cost or lower prices the finisher is the one penalised to about €150 per head while the processor still get more money so yeah forget about €40 if in the long run it will do something about the shambles that is QA as it stands

nashmach

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

It is 12c/kg on about 20% of cattle this is the issue about 80% of cattle recieve no QA bonus. I imagine that well over 80% of cattle going into factory's are QA'ed. Over 50% of our beef goes to the UK who'es supermarkets want QA cattle but are not paying for it. The Qa is no longer of benefit to farmers in general so if it is not reformed we should scrap it. It will not be scraped but if we are willing not to take part in it factory's will have to pay for it.

To put it in context I was told that next year farmers will have to pay for the inspection and it will cost 150+. It is my believe that it is a much more practical protest than farmers dancing around the ailes of Irish supermarkets that only take 4-6% of the beef we produce,

After all of that - how do you propose to get the €40 back into farmers pockets. Many of us have quality assured cattle and strive to produce them and now you are wanting to kick this to touch after all the focus of the past few years... You are on about scrapping it - farmers are powerless to do so - this is driven by consumers.

I would be opposed to paying for this as Bord Bia are doing very little for Irish beef at present but agree with you that it would be far better than prancing around aisles and the protesters making nuisances of themselves.

I said wrote: »

What is €40 on 25%of all cattle killed still under the QA banner the factories are still getting the other 75% at no extra cost or lower prices the finisher is the one penalised to about €150 per head while the processor still get more money so yeah forget about €40 if in the long run it will do something about the shambles that is QA as it stands

Maybe the case for yourself but again €40 is a good few quid to those of us who actually produce cattle to meet the customers requirements.

Base price

Personally I think the QA scheme is a joke. As someone else posted it is just another stick for the factories to beat us with. OH delivers cattle to various factories for local farmers/finishers. A few months ago some factories wouldn't even quote for overage bullocks and cows unless they were coming from a QA herd, now in the last few weeks they couldn't care where they were coming from.
Also people with cattle in spec were being fcuked around by the same factories. On one hand they would give the bonus then take it back off for minus fat scores.
Initially I thought that the QA scheme was a good idea to promote Irish beef but it has been hijacked by the factories to manipulate prices to their benefit and to the disadvantage of the farmer/finisher.

Farmer Pudsey

nashmach wrote: »

After all of that - how do you propose to get the €40 back into farmers pockets. Many of us have quality assured cattle and strive to produce them and now you are wanting to kick this to touch after all the focus of the past few years... You are on about scrapping it - farmers are powerless to do so - this is driven by consumers.

I would be opposed to paying for this as Bord Bia are doing very little for Irish beef at present but agree with you that it would be far better than prancing around aisles and the protesters making nuisances of themselves.



Maybe the case for yourself but again €40 is a good few quid to those of us who actually produce cattle to meet the customers requirements.

Over the last 8 months QA has been used to reduce the price of bulls cows, heavy and lower spec cattle. As the price of these cattle were forced down this forced down the price of prime cattle here and in the UK. We have seen over the last 3 weeks that factory's have risen the price of these cattle cows and bulls rather than the price of prime cattle. So QA is costing you the 40 euro you get and more.

There is no way the factory's will be without QA however unless farmers are willing to let it be clear that we will not tolerate the present system and will scrap it as it is not fit for purpose then it will continue to cost all farmers money. If the factory's could not have forced bull prices so low the base for cattle would not be 3.7/kg.

At times when cattle numbers are high the factory's always use somthing to beat farmers with, years ago it was thirty months, but as this year it was a disgrace what happened with bulls. 18-30 months months ago they cryed at farmers not to export calves and weanlings athen when these came on stream they proceeded use this product to drop the price of all cattle.

It is one thing to look at the international price and see the Irish R price at only 5-10c/g below the US price where they use hormones, it is another thing to relise that the gap at O- is another 36c/kg below that, and that O grade bulls were 70-90c/kg below it until 10 days ago. As long as the factory's can access cheap beef at prices like that it pull down the price of your cattle. This will benefit all farmers cattle not just those extra cattle that get a bonus and a proper structured QA system.

Farmer Pudsey

Base price wrote: »

Personally I think the QA scheme is a joke. As someone else posted it is just another stick for the factories to beat us with. OH delivers cattle to various factories for local farmers/finishers. A few months ago some factories wouldn't even quote for overage bullocks and cows unless they were coming from a QA herd, now in the last few weeks they couldn't care where they were coming from.
Also people with cattle in spec were being fcuked around by the same factories. On one hand they would give the bonus then take it back off for minus fat scores.
Initially I thought that the QA scheme was a good idea to promote Irish beef but it has been hijacked by the factories to manipulate prices to their benefit and to the disadvantage of the farmer/finisher.

One example is O=4= cattle these suffer a 6c/kg drop as opposed to other higher grades, this catches smaller framed bullocks and heifers, another is the even though R+&R- is the base there is a 12c/kg drop to O+ cattle. These little tweaks give the factory's cheap beef to beat down the price in the UK and thereby put more pressure on us.

One of the real sickening things is the way lamb meat processors import lamb from NI and it is exported to France as Irish lamb and yet Irish stores exported to NI and finished there cannot be labeled as either Irish or NI cattle.

Base price

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

One of the real sickening things is the way lamb meat processors import lamb from NI and it is exported to France as Irish lamb and yet Irish stores exported to NI and finished there cannot be labeled as either Irish or NI cattle.

Did not know that about the sheep but am well aware of the cattle situation.
OH sold Fr bulls to a man in the North last spring and he had trouble getting them killed in the North last winter.
When it comes to free trade within the EU the cross border cattle situation is a pure joke.
Does anyone know if the IFA have challenged it?

nashmach

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Over the last 8 months QA has been used to reduce the price of bulls cows, heavy and lower spec cattle. As the price of these cattle were forced down this forced down the price of prime cattle here and in the UK. We have seen over the last 3 weeks that factory's have risen the price of these cattle cows and bulls rather than the price of prime cattle. So QA is costing you the 40 euro you get and more.

There is no way the factory's will be without QA however unless farmers are willing to let it be clear that we will not tolerate the present system and will scrap it as it is not fit for purpose then it will continue to cost all farmers money. If the factory's could not have forced bull prices so low the base for cattle would not be 3.7/kg.

At times when cattle numbers are high the factory's always use somthing to beat farmers with, years ago it was thirty months, but as this year it was a disgrace what happened with bulls. 18-30 months months ago they cryed at farmers not to export calves and weanlings athen when these came on stream they proceeded use this product to drop the price of all cattle.

It is one thing to look at the international price and see the Irish R price at only 5-10c/g below the US price where they use hormones, it is another thing to relise that the gap at O- is another 36c/kg below that, and that O grade bulls were 70-90c/kg below it until 10 days ago. As long as the factory's can access cheap beef at prices like that it pull down the price of your cattle. This will benefit all farmers cattle not just those extra cattle that get a bonus and a proper structured QA system.

All well and good Pudsey but the warning signs for bull beef were evident by this time last year - again I will admit factory driven (who obviously had an agenda).

Still consumers will want this and to be honest what factory is going to openly admit for the Irish market that it has no QA beef - simply won't work.

Your last point is irrelevant to QA really but more of an issue with the whole grid system itself.

Farmer Pudsey

nashmach wrote: »

All well and good Pudsey but the warning signs for bull beef were evident by this time last year - again I will admit factory driven (who obviously had an agenda).

Still consumers will want this and to be honest what factory is going to openly admit for the Irish market that it has no QA beef - simply won't work.

Your last point is irrelevant to QA really but more of an issue with the whole grid system itself.

Incorrect yes Cormac Healy was giving generic statements like he dis for the 2-3 years previous. But as late as October last factory porcurement agents were telling agents that there was no issue with bulls as long as below 24 months. Even at this stage last year it a bit late to lads that have kept bulls entire and have these up towards 500kgs to be going squeezing them.

A senior processor manager told staff who questioned what would happen to all these bulls after Christmass '' there will be no issue we will kill them at our price and when it suits us as we need them''. There is no issue with bulls for the last 10 day factory's cannot get enough of them neither can they get enough cows. The factory's are using this beef to try to keep a lid on prices however pressue is building on them.

Yes consumers want QA however why should we provide it to factory's for nothing and on top of that it be used to drop the price of all cattle in the system. You fail to grasp the point that the use of the QA bonus and the grid is costing you much more than the 40 yoyo's you get and next year you will have to pay for the benefit of providing it for nothing.

I said

An elderly neighbour near me nonQA and overage bullocks got base price last week killed next morning no questions asked as cattle scarce as I've said before they all go down the one line in the factory.QA is used to manipulate prices for factories benefit and not the farmers .

nashmach

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Incorrect yes Cormac Healy was giving generic statements like he dis for the 2-3 years previous. But as late as October last factory porcurement agents were telling agents that there was no issue with bulls as long as below 24 months. Even at this stage last year it a bit late to lads that have kept bulls entire and have these up towards 500kgs to be going squeezing them.

A senior processor manager told staff who questioned what would happen to all these bulls after Christmass '' there will be no issue we will kill them at our price and when it suits us as we need them''. There is no issue with bulls for the last 10 day factory's cannot get enough of them neither can they get enough cows. The factory's are using this beef to try to keep a lid on prices however pressue is building on them.

Yes consumers want QA however why should we provide it to factory's for nothing and on top of that it be used to drop the price of all cattle in the system. You fail to grasp the point that the use of the QA bonus and the grid is costing you much more than the 40 yoyo's you get and next year you will have to pay for the benefit of providing it for nothing.

So are you telling me those lads that long delays killing bulls out of sheds this time last year that it was not a sign of things to come? Come on, the writing was on the wall at that stage to be honest. That certainly isn't what was being said over this side of the country anyway - all the drive was on younger and younger bulls and indeed weight limits. However no one could have foreseen that such changes would take place over such a short period of time and rather more so over a few short months.

There are no doubt cows are being used to surpress price but it is like this - it has been that way since Adam and Eve and sure won't change in the future.

There is no need to get personal or intimidating with me, just because I have a different viewpoint to yours...
You are now casting comments that the grid is costing me money but I can tell you, I'd much sooner it than any flat price any day. No person can say that without knowledge of what a person is finishing. Yet again you are combining the two - the QA and the grid are two different animals IMV.

Yes, QA can be used as a market manipulator as another poster has said but I'd rather have it than not have it and get the €40 in my back pocket as a result. Clearly others think similar too given the rises in numbers signing up to it this year. It is a useful marketing tool but does need to be changed and not taken as a given in the price which factories have been left to do in particular over the past year or so. But it is one less thing for a factory to beat you up over.

The grid is flawed and needs to be reviewed and thought this had been done before around 3 years ago but can't remember any outcomes from it.

Base price

nashmach wrote: »

So are you telling me those lads that long delays killing bulls out of sheds this time last year that it was not a sign of things to come? Come on, the writing was on the wall at that stage to be honest. That certainly isn't what was being said over this side of the country anyway - all the drive was on younger and younger bulls and indeed weight limits. However no one could have foreseen that such changes would take place over such a short period of time and rather more so over a few short months.

There are no doubt cows are being used to surpress price but it is like this - it has been that way since Adam and Eve and sure won't change in the future.

There is no need to get personal or intimidating with me, just because I have a different viewpoint to yours...
You are now casting comments that the grid is costing me money but I can tell you, I'd much sooner it than any flat price any day. No person can say that without knowledge of what a person is finishing. Yet again you are combining the two - the QA and the grid are two different animals IMV.

Yes, QA can be used as a market manipulator as another poster has said but I'd rather have it than not have it and get the €40 in my back pocket as a result. Clearly others think similar too given the rises in numbers signing up to it this year. It is a useful marketing tool but does need to be changed and not taken as a given in the price which factories have been left to do in particular over the past year or so. But it is one less thing for a factory to beat you up over.

The grid is flawed and needs to be reviewed and thought this had been done before around 3 years ago but can't remember any outcomes from it.

The only reason that farmers are signing up for it around here is that they are afraid they will not get their cull cows/overage bullocks away next year. They have heard stories or have had first hand experience similar to what I recounted in my earlier post. It did not matter that the animals were not eligible for the scheme the factories wanted them to come from a QA herd period. As Pudsey said cheap meat for the factories at our expense.

Farmer Pudsey

nashmach wrote: »

So are you telling me those lads that long delays killing bulls out of sheds this time last year that it was not a sign of things to come? Come on, the writing was on the wall at that stage to be honest. That certainly isn't what was being said over this side of the country anyway - all the drive was on younger and younger bulls and indeed weight limits. However no one could have foreseen that such changes would take place over such a short period of time and rather more so over a few short months.

There are no doubt cows are being used to surpress price but it is like this - it has been that way since Adam and Eve and sure won't change in the future.

There is no need to get personal or intimidating with me, just because I have a different viewpoint to yours...
You are now casting comments that the grid is costing me money but I can tell you, I'd much sooner it than any flat price any day. No person can say that without knowledge of what a person is finishing. Yet again you are combining the two - the QA and the grid are two different animals IMV.

Yes, QA can be used as a market manipulator as another poster has said but I'd rather have it than not have it and get the €40 in my back pocket as a result. Clearly others think similar too given the rises in numbers signing up to it this year. It is a useful marketing tool but does need to be changed and not taken as a given in the price which factories have been left to do in particular over the past year or so. But it is one less thing for a factory to beat you up over.

The grid is flawed and needs to be reviewed and thought this had been done before around 3 years ago but can't remember any outcomes from it.

I do not know why you think I am getting personnel or trying to intimidate you. However I think you view point is flawed. As you said the grid is flawed. It has been flawed since it inception however the factory's will not fix these flaws unless a gun is to there head. The only gun that is present is if as farmers we are willing to walk away from it.

The main delay with bulls last year was those over 24 months generally bulls from 16-24 were killed when you wanted. It was a little harder than other years but previous years there was issue with killing bulls as well.

What change between September/October when factory procurement managers told agent's no issue with bulls under 24 months and Christmas. Quite simply the factory filled there feedlots with 15-20K cattle in anticipation of Christmass shortage, then a few wet weeks around the same time encouraged some farmers to house early. Then a dry warn autumn allowed more cattle to be killed off grass. This changed the normal market around Christmas and the early glut of cattle allowed meat processors to pick and chose and change spec.

Just like the UK farmers complain about cheaper beef distorting their market do you not consider prime beef at 3/KG (well finished Friesian bulls) is not causing a reduction in you beef prices. The other issue is why should farmers that produce a product (QA beef) that they are not being paid for continue in the scheme. The only way that the scheme will be reformed is if a substancial amount of farmers tell the meat processors enough is enough we are withdrawing our BQAS status

Robson99

The main problem with the grid is that the 6 cent increments do not reflect the current base price. The 6 cent increment was done initially on a base price of 2.80 or 3.00 IIRC. The increments should be pro rata this base price .i.e. if beef is 4.00 per kg then the increments should be 8 cent. 6 cent is not enough of a bonus for producing better quality stock

Willfarman

Robson99 wrote: »

The main problem with the grid is that the 6 cent increments do not reflect the current base price. The 6 cent increment was done initially on a base price of 2.80 or 3.00 IIRC. The increments should be pro rata this base price .i.e. if beef is 4.00 per kg then the increments should be 8 cent. 6 cent is not enough of a bonus for producing better quality stock

You may be producing better quality stock but you might not be producing better quality beef. The conformation of the animal has little or no bearing on the taste tenderness and succulence of the beef.
Any price increment can only truly be fair if it's gauged on a boned out weight yield of meat. I kill cattle of all grades and the cattle I often feel robbed on are o+ grade. I don't believe the meat yield will be 12 cent a kg worth across the carcass compared to an r- .

And people need to remember there is a far greater tonnage of o grade beef produced in the country than u grade. These elitist fancy cattle loving grid supporters actually loaded the processers guns to cheapen the overall tonnage of beef.

Muckit

The increment should be a percentage of base say something like 2%.

Farmer Pudsey

Robson99 wrote: »

The main problem with the grid is that the 6 cent increments do not reflect the current base price. The 6 cent increment was done initially on a base price of 2.80 or 3.00 IIRC. The increments should be pro rata this base price .i.e. if beef is 4.00 per kg then the increments should be 8 cent. 6 cent is not enough of a bonus for producing better quality stock

the gap in reality is much bigger than 6c/kg/grid going down from the base with an O-4= QA bullocks is 42c/kg lower than an R-4= QA bullock. that is equivlrnt to nearly 14c/kg/increment.

coolshannagh28

An excellent debate which reflects the huge level of dissatisfaction with processors manipulation of beef prices ,this is a zero sum game for primary producers and this is exaggerated by our minister for agriculture who backs big business .I have said this before to general opprobrium , opt out of the game . Lower inputs are the way forward ,smaller cattle numbers, smaller carcasses ,this will impact directly on the kill per week ie sub 30000 and drive added value as this is what the market demands , embrace the subsidies maximise SFP consider organics ,future funding is targeted at greening, biodiversity and agritourism .
Aim to minimise losses from farming and maximise income from other sources ,CAP is there to subsidise loss making beef farmers who are not able to or meant to make profit.

Willfarman

The problem with that is if you are moderately to well stocked and you look at your fixed costs and your inputs..
Then cost up reducing stocking density.
The fixed costs barely move. The inputs reduce a little bit but not near as much as you would hope. Cash flow suffers. Grassland deteriorates. And the big problem is your net worth slips when you let stock numbers slip.

freedominacup

nashmach wrote: »

After all of that - how do you propose to get the €40 back into farmers pockets. Many of us have quality assured cattle and strive to produce them and now you are wanting to kick this to touch after all the focus of the past few years... You are on about scrapping it - farmers are powerless to do so - this is driven by consumers.

I would be opposed to paying for this as Bord Bia are doing very little for Irish beef at present but agree with you that it would be far better than prancing around aisles and the protesters making nuisances of themselves.



Maybe the case for yourself but again €40 is a good few quid to those of us who actually produce cattle to meet the customers requirements.

The QA scheme is related to the farm that is producing the cattle not the cattle themselves. The factories have made it about the cattle which is just another example of their willingness to distort any system to suit their own needs regardless of the intentions of that system.

We nhave been qa since the start even before it was a BB scheme. We were supplying a ggod few beef heifers to an abbatoir that exclusively supplied of the supermarket chains and this supermarket came up with their own spec for beef suppliers back in the late nineties (I think). We used to get a notional bonus at that time but it was probably the last time we produced cattle that got a qa bonus. However someone who signed up to qa in the last six months, who buys cattle of x grade regardless of the animals previous history (7 non qa farms, 8 mart moves in the previous month whatever) can magically turn this animal into this mythical qa beef after the application of 71 days of the goodness his recently endowed qa status confers.:rolleyes: Whereas my Ho or HoX cattle of either sex can never achieve this status regardless of how much time they spend on my farm, usually birth to slaughter. It's a screwed up system, farms are QAed yet the factories have made it about the stock.

Muckit

It's another 'divide and conquer' strategy.

QA vs non QA. Promoting begrudgery among farmers when in reality the QA lads are being caught out on every and any technicality and not getting it anyway!!

It's so f**ked up. It's great that farmers are at last seeing what the Bord Bia bonus is. Processors are always going to be the winners.