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Medical Advice!

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24

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    #32
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    penguin88 wrote: »
    Well if the first piece of advice is to visit their GP, what help is further advice?



    Why should boards.ie not provide a platform for unregulated, uninformed medical advice? The clue is in the question, uninformed, unregulated medical advice is not a good thing. What benefit would such advice provide? You still have not made this clear.

    Look you are not reading anything I am saying, I have already answered both of these question in previous posts. i am not going to waste my time retyping all of the arguments because you are simply not bothered enough to read them.

    thanks


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    #33
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    If the information the persons receives is incorrect it will be picked up by the GP.....

    What if they just skip going to a GP ?

    (because of daft advisers)


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    #34
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    gctest50 wrote: »
    What if they just skip going to a GP ?

    (because of daft advisers)

    Mother of God that is why I said the first bit of advice should always be visit the GP, "Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

    My point is that there is no reason to stop the discussion after that.

    Will people please read the posts in the thread before commenting please.


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    #35
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Look you are not reading anything I am saying, I have already answered both of these question in previous posts. i am not going to waste my time retyping all of the arguments because you are simply not bothered enough to read them.

    thanks

    Just to let you know, I have read all of your posts. You have not made, and appear unable to make, a clear argument as to the benefit of allowing medical advice on this forum.

    I questioned your assertion that patients will be more "informed" following unregulated advice from unqualified anonymous posters. Your response appears to be to restate that patients being more informed is a good thing (which it is) and that unregulated advice from unqualified anonymous posters will make patients more informed (which it won't).

    If you can't debate your point effectively, your suggestion is not gong to be seriously considered - your loss.


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    #36
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Mother of God that is why I said the first bit of advice should always be visit the GP, "Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

    My point is that there is no reason to stop the discussion after that.

    Will people please read the posts in the thread before commenting please.
    Because people looking for free advice to solve a problem are probably going to ignore the advice to see a gp and take whatever random solutions are offered.


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    #37
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    penguin88 wrote: »
    I questioned your assertion that patients will be more "informed" following unregulated advice from unqualified anonymous posters. Your response appears to be to restate that patients being more informed is a good thing (which it is) and that unregulated advice from unqualified anonymous posters will make patients more informed (which it won't). .

    In fairness, that argument could be made for most fora on here that involves discussion on technical matters. Accountancy, tax, financial affairs, legal discussion, motors, you name it. No one posting on this site on a zillion technical matters have their credentials verified. It is all unregulated and unqualified advice.


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    #38
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    Oryx wrote: »
    Because people looking for free advice to solve a problem are probably going to ignore the advice to see a gp and take whatever random solutions are offered.

    Can you possibly give an example please. What could the person suggest to the person who is looking for advice but is unwilling to go to their gp? Please be specific.. They will not be able to get any medication that is not available OTC, they won to able to receive ant treatment, so i am curious as to what you think might happen in this case.


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    #39
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Mother of God that is why I said the first bit of advice should always be visit the GP, "Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

    My point is that there is no reason to stop the discussion after that.

    Will people please read the posts in the thread before commenting please.

    You seem to think that if posters are told to see a GP they will do that- that's a dangerous assumption. There are lots of reasons why someone might not follow such advice, and finding reassurance from 'advice' posted by others is one of them.


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    #40
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    drkpower wrote: »
    In fairness, that argument could be made for most fora on here that involves discussion on technical matters. Accountancy, tax, financial affairs, legal discussion, motors, you name it. No one posting on this site on a zillion technical matters have their credentials verified. It is all unregulated and unqualified advice.

    Well said, you said the words I was trying to find, thanks.


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    #41
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    sam34 wrote: »
    You seem to think that if posters are told to see a GP they will do that- that's a dangerous assumption. There are lots of reasons why someone might not follow such advice, and finding reassurance from 'advice' posted by others is one of them.

    Well if i assume that people are completely illogical there is no point in interacting with anyone.

    And as an aside is that not what boards are doing at present?


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    #42
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,667 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Well said, you said the words I was trying to find, thanks.

    Or as Boards FAQ ..

    Don't give/ request medical or professional advice

    If you want to tell someone about the amazing results YOU have had with a certain medical treatment, then go ahead. What you can’t do is tell them that THEY should have that treatment. You aren’t a doctor. Even if you were, you haven’t examined that person physically, nor do you have a full medical history. This applies to Alternative/Complimentary medicine too. Suggesting to someone that has a serious problem that <insert alternative therapy here> might cure it is very irresponsible.
    Don't diagnose anyone on the site either. You simply can’t and we don’t want you doing it. Don't do it.
    Don’t request medical advice or diagnosis. If you have a rash somewhere naughty, your head is hanging off or there is green goo oozing from somewhere GO TO A DOCTOR.
    Randomly asking people online what’s wrong with you and what you should do about it is about the DUMBEST THING EVER. You deserve your place in The Darwin Awards if you follow any advice you get. We disclaim ALL liability if you are stupid enough to listen and act on anything you are told here. GO TO A DOCTOR. A *REAL* ONE.
    As with medical advice, requesting and acting upon Professional Advice bases on something someone's said here without having the specifics of your case in front of them is a really bad idea. An accountant cannot do your books over the internet, nor can a solicitor represent you in court, so for your own sake, if you find yourself in a position where you might need professional advice, please seek it from the right places. Again, as with medical advice, we disclaim ALL liability. We're happy for people to ask general questions about the best way to respond to a letter you may have gotten, be it from the Revenue Commissioners or from an Architect in relation to hte extension you're planning on adding to your house, but you will need to get proper advice on these matters.


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    #43
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    drkpower wrote: »
    In fairness, that argument could be made for most fora on here that involves discussion on technical matters. Accountancy, tax, financial affairs, legal discussion, motors, you name it. No one posting on this site on a zillion technical matters have their credentials verified. It is all unregulated and unqualified advice.

    Agreed, but are the consequences of poor quality medical advice not potentially more harmful than in those other circumstances?


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    #44
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Can you possibly give an example please. What could the person suggest to the person who is looking for advice but is unwilling to go to their gp? Please be specific.. They will not be able to get any medication that is not available OTC, they won to able to receive ant treatment, so i am curious as to what you think might happen in this case.

    As I posted earlier- it can result in a delay in treatment. Here's another one I dealt with on boards- someone posted about a testicular lump and asked if it was cancer. Before a mod got to the thread, someone else came along and said that it was highly unlikely to be cancer. Now, the poster stating that had no way whatsoever of knowing what the guy's testicular lump was. While its correct to state that most testicular lumps are not cancerous, it was irresponsible in the extreme to state that "you probably don't have cancer" based on the little info given. The poster could well have taken great comfort from that and not gone further about it, or have taken some solace and buried their head in the sand instead of going to a doctor.


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    #45
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    penguin88 wrote: »
    Agreed, but are the consequences of poor quality medical advice not potentially more harmful than in those other circumstances?

    So simply because one is more serious than the other it is not ok. Give out all the erroneous financial advice you wish - all it will cost people is money!


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    #46
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    penguin88 wrote: »
    Agreed, but are the consequences of poor quality medical advice not potentially more harmful than in those other circumstances?

    Not necessarily.

    Bad advice on how to fix the forward gasket thingy in your car engine is likely to have far worse consequences that pan advice on how to manage frozen shoulder.

    Same thing applies to dodgy financial advice, or a multitude of other types of advice given on these boards many times a day.


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    #47
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    sam34 wrote: »
    As I posted earlier- it can result in a delay in treatment. Here's another one I dealt with on boards- someone posted about a testicular lump and asked if it was cancer. Before a mod got to the thread, someone else came along and said that it was highly unlikely to be cancer. Now, the poster stating that had no way whatsoever of knowing what the guy's testicular lump was. While its correct to state that most testicular lumps are not cancerous, it was irresponsible in the extreme to state that "you probably don't have cancer" based on the little info given. The poster could well have taken great comfort from that and not gone further about it, or have taken some solace and buried their head in the sand instead of going to a doctor.

    Again, one or two cases studies, does not prove your point!


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    #48
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Well if i assume that people are completely illogical there is no point in interacting with anyone.

    And as an aside is that not what boards are doing at present?

    Sigh. I'm not sure how many times I can keep saying this.

    The standard response cuts down (doesn't eliminate, but reduces) the risk of people not seeking appropriate help.


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    #49
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Again, one or two cases studies, does not prove your point!

    You asked for examples, I provided them.


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    #50
    Oryx
    Subscribers Posts: 19,425 ✭✭✭✭Oryx


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Can you possibly give an example please. What could the person suggest to the person who is looking for advice but is unwilling to go to their gp? Please be specific.. They will not be able to get any medication that is not available OTC, they won to able to receive ant treatment, so i am curious as to what you think might happen in this case.
    I could give you a hundred. Someone with a doctor phobia, no money, in denial, seeking a quick fix, psychosis, and so on. The key thing is that medical advice could do harm, as per my first post in this thread. There are more damaged people here posting than you seem to think.


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    #51
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    So simply because one is more serious than the other it is not ok. Give out all the erroneous financial advice you wish - all it will cost people is money!

    Nonsense, where did I say that?

    As RobFowl has posted above, all professional advice is prohibited on the site. The majority of this section of the FAQ focuses on medical advice, reflecting the serious consequences that could result in such a case.


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    #52
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    sam34 wrote: »
    You asked for examples, I provided them.

    I asked you for specific examples where something actually happened. Not just where there was an outside possibility that something may have happened.


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    #53
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    penguin88 wrote: »
    Nonsense, where did I say that?

    As RobFowl has posted above, all professional advice is prohibited on the site. The majority of this section of the FAQ focuses on medical advice, reflecting the serious consequences that could result in such a case.

    Ah you said it right here;

    "Agreed, but are the consequences of poor quality medical advice not potentially more harmful than in those other circumstances?"??


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    #54
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    Oryx wrote: »
    I could give you a hundred. Someone with a doctor phobia, no money, in denial, seeking a quick fix, psychosis, and so on. The key thing is that medical advice could do harm, as per my first post in this thread. There are more damaged people here posting than you seem to think.

    Would you mind giving me some then?

    What do you mean by "damaged"?


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    #55
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    drkpower wrote: »
    Not necessarily.

    Bad advice on how to fix the forward gasket thingy in your car engine is likely to have far worse consequences that pan advice on how to manage frozen shoulder.

    Same thing applies to dodgy financial advice, or a multitude of other types of advice given on these boards many times a day.

    And advice on how to adjust the wipers on the car has less potential for harm than advising someone their referred left arm pain is probably just a pulled muscle. The point is all professional advice is banned for a good reason, to protect against catastrophic outcomes when bad advice is imparted and followed.


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    #56
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    penguin88 wrote: »
    And advice on how to adjust the wipers on the car has less potential for harm than advising someone their referred left arm pain is probably just a pulled muscle. The point is all professional advice is banned for a good reason, to protect against catastrophic outcomes when bad advice is imparted and followed.

    But the point we are making is that it is not all banned, only medical advice.. no one will say anything if you give someone advice on how to fix there computer!


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    #57
    drkpower
    Registered Users Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    penguin88 wrote: »
    And advice on how to adjust the wipers on the car has less potential for harm than advising someone their referred left arm pain is probably just a pulled muscle. The point is all professional advice is banned for a good reason, to protect against catastrophic outcomes when bad advice is imparted and followed.

    If it were so.....

    I don't think that, in practice, all professional advice is banned. Browse the financial or motor fora (for example) and advice is given all the time. The approach in the health sciences forum is quite different, and quite strict. Not that I would necessarily criticise that, I can see why the mods do it. What I criticise is the lack of a joined up approach site wide.

    And the distinction between 'posting your experiences' and 'posting advice' is very often no distinction at all.


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    #58
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Ah you said it right here;

    "Agreed, but are the consequences of poor quality medical advice not potentially more harmful than in those other circumstances?"??

    You're making a strawman, the above does not equate to "So simply because one is more serious than the other it is not ok. Give out all the erroneous financial advice you wish - all it will cost people is money!", that is your incorrect extrapolation.
    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    But the point we are making is that it is not all banned, only medical advice.. no one will say anything if you give someone advice on how to fix there computer!

    Professional advice is banned, not just medical advice, have you not read the FAQ?


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    #59
    sleepyheadh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 582 ✭✭✭sleepyheadh


    penguin88 wrote: »
    You're making a strawman, the above does not equate to "So simply because one is more serious than the other it is not ok. Give out all the erroneous financial advice you wish - all it will cost people is money!", that is your incorrect extrapolation.



    Professional advice is banned, not just medical advice, have you not read the FAQ?

    Don't talk to me about strawmen. You are not reading any of the posts by myself or drkpower, or if you are you are simply refusing to see past your own biases.


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    #60
    Kurtosis
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 2,881 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kurtosis


    drkpower wrote: »
    If it were so.....

    I don't think that, in practice, all professional advice is banned. Browse the financial or motor fora (for example) and advice is given all the time. The approach in the health sciences forum is quite different, and quite strict. Not that I would necessarily criticise that, I can see why the mods do it. What I criticise is the lack of a joined up approach site wide.

    And the distinction between 'posting your experiences' and 'posting advice' is very often no distinction at all.

    I'm not familiar with a lot of the other fora where professional advice would be sought. It sounds like you have an issue with the level of enforcement in such fora, perhaps it would be worth reporting posts you feel should be actioned.


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    #61
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    Oryx wrote: »
    Because people looking for free advice to solve a problem are probably going to ignore the advice to see a gp and take whatever random solutions are offered.
    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Can you possibly give an example please. What could the person suggest to the person who is looking for advice but is unwilling to go to their gp? Please be specific.. They will not be able to get any medication that is not available OTC, they won to able to receive ant treatment, so i am curious as to what you think might happen in this case.
    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    I asked you for specific examples where something actually happened. Not just where there was an outside possibility that something may have happened.

    You actually asked for examples of things that "might happen".

    I gave you an example from my clinic today where a young man now has an extended duration of untreated psychosis thanks to inappropriate advice. I gave you an example of a post here on boards where mods intervened to avert something possibly happening... I don't know what the outcome of that man with the testicular lump was, but I do know he got no false assurances here.

    Another poster has given you other examples of things that could go wrong and various reasons for that.

    But of course, when you got the examples you asked for, you had further comment to make:
    sleepyheadh wrote: »
    Again, in my first post "Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

    What I am talking about is after the person is told to visit the GP. Yes you have giving an example of when it didn't work. But then if i give you an example of when someone read something on the internet and sought medical attention for it, is my point valid?


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