Medical Advice!

sleepyheadh

I was just wondering... And I am not asking this question in a snarky way..

What purpose does the rule of not offering medical advice really accomplish?

If a person posts a thread saying for example; "I have been having a really annoying pain in my left foot." Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

While on the other hand, if someone else was to reply to the OP and say they had the same general symptoms and it turned out to be x, maybe they should bring this up with the GP as well. Does this not just make the OP more informed?

Its not as if, someone who has received medical advice from Boards is going to go out and give themselves a MRI or CT scan in the morning.

I am really curious as to what purpose the rule serves.

kneemos

The risk and probability of wrong advice being given presumably.Never mind the array of differing opinions.

RobFowl

The main reasons are to protect posters and not to expose boards.ie to legal exposure for the consequences of bad advice.

RobFowl

As a moderator I have to point out that medical advice is simply not allowed here under any circumstances.

sam34

As above- it's primarily to protect posters. You would simply not believe the array of stuff we've seen and deleted here over the years. It never ceases to astound me that people think it's appropriate to take medical advice from randomers on the net who've never laid eyes on them, much less examined them or taken a proper history and who may or may not even be medically qualified. There are any number of quacks and charlatans out there too happy to wade in with dodgy 'advice'.

Your example above is. IMO, quite unsafe. If someone posts about symptom x and someone else comes along and says "oh I had that, turned out to be condition y" the op may well just be reassured and leave it at that, without seeking proper medical advice, leaving themselves quite vulnerable. Plus, knowing that symptom x was a symptom of condition y in person z's case is not really being 'better informed', in fact it can be the opposite- a total red herring that someone gets hooked on. (I say this having spent about half an hour yesterday explaining to someone that while I'm delighted her neighbour feels better on Prozac, she herself does not have any condition for which Prozac is indicated and thus didn't need it and wasn't getting it!)

sleepyheadh

I understand all of these points. But my point would be, that apart from the obvious cases where someone says stop taking x because its killing you, i.e the crazy people of Boards. Really the only thing that is likely to happen is someone goes in to their doctor and says - " I think it could be x". At which point the GP will examine them and determine if that is the case. Surely, it is just the same as someone who hears off a person on the street that Mary had that last week!

Its going to be very rare that a person can actually act on the medical advice that they receive from a site such as boards. They will have to pass the gate keepers, i.e the GPs, before getting any medical treatment in Ireland.

It is just like those numerous sites that offer symptom checkers. They seem to be allowed to offer diagnosis to people simply based on a list of symptoms. Surely, this is precisely what the people on boards will be doing?

It is a fairly common occurrence that someone comes into the GPs with a diagnosis already made after reading for five minutes online. I don't see many cases coming up of people taking legal action against the site that offered the symptom checker. Surely, a legal disclaimer that Boards or its members are not responsible for medical advice and all posters should seek their GP before starting or stoping and medication etc, would suffice.

Maybe, I'm wrong but I think that the whole medical advice thing is taking a little to seriously on boards. Some threads are being stopped almost as soon as they begin will others, one springs to mind to in posters were encouraging the OP to stockpile a drug in the US and Canada and then bring it home to Ireland as it wasn't available here, was allowed to continue and is still open.

sleepyheadh

sam34 wrote: »

the op may well just be reassured and leave it at that, without seeking proper medical advice, leaving themselves quite vulnerable.

You really are showing just how little common sense and intelligence you feel the people on boards have. That is a ludicrous notion that someone would just be placated by a poster on boards and take the issue no further. Ridiculous!

sleepyheadh

Any way, the simplest thing to do is to go over to the LTI, You can talk about whatever the **** you want to over there!

Mrs OBumble

There is also the slight issue that giving medical advice is regulated in Ireland - as is giving legal advice, taxation advice etc. You will find that boards.ie does not allow any of it, I imagine because of liability / insurance issues.

sleepyheadh

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There is also the slight issue that giving medical advice is regulated in Ireland - as is giving legal advice, taxation advice etc. You will find that boards.ie does not allow any of it, I imagine because of liability / insurance issues.

But if you go over to the legal forum there are people doling it out.. and even on health, if a doc has made a mistake the first thing people will comment is how to take legal action yet, this is not modded!

RobFowl

sleepyheadh wrote: »

But if you go over to the legal forum there are people doling it out.. and even on health, if a doc has made a mistake the first thing people will comment is how to take legal action yet, this is not modded!

Any issues with a post report it !

Oryx

I close these kinds of threads all the time. Why?

We are not doctors.
We cannot see the condition.
Someone may take the advice given here and based on that not deal with their issue correctly or adequately.
There may be additional mental or physical contraindications with the op we have no knowledge of.
The chance that advice given will be erroneous or harmful is huge.
It could give scope for malicious people to deliberately misdiagnose in order to harm or frighten.
You should never underestimate the willingness of people to accept bad advice.

tl; dr? No advice is better than someone harmed by incorrect advice.

sam34

sleepyheadh wrote: »

You really are showing just how little common sense and intelligence you feel the people on boards have. That is a ludicrous notion that someone would just be placated by a poster on boards and take the issue no further. Ridiculous!

Common sense ain't all that common!

I see it every day in my clinics- people take all sorts of "advice" from all sorts of sources, for a variety of reasons. Sick people are vulnerable and sometimes will latch on to any glimmer of hope, however tenuous, rather than go the proper route and get their fears confirmed.

Kurtosis

sleepyheadh wrote: »

I was just wondering... And I am not asking this question in a snarky way..

What purpose does the rule of not offering medical advice really accomplish?

If a person posts a thread saying for example; "I have been having a really annoying pain in my left foot." Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

While on the other hand, if someone else was to reply to the OP and say they had the same general symptoms and it turned out to be x, maybe they should bring this up with the GP as well. Does this not just make the OP more informed?

Its not as if, someone who has received medical advice from Boards is going to go out and give themselves a MRI or CT scan in the morning.

I am really curious as to what purpose the rule serves.

What purpose would allowing medical advice serve?

You suggest the OP may be more informed as a result, but any advice given could be completely uninformed and incorrect. As you say yourself below, to get a diagnosis and treatment a person will have to visit a medical professional - what's the point in allowing medical advice be given by anonymous posters on the internet that may interfere with the process of seeking medical attention?

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Its going to be very rare that a person can actually act on the medical advice that they receive from a site such as boards. They will have to pass the gate keepers, i.e the GPs, before getting any medical treatment in Ireland.

sam34

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Any way, the simplest thing to do is to go over to the LTI, You can talk about whatever the **** you want to over there!

I'm a mod of that forum, and no, no you can't "talk about whatever the **** you want to over there".

You can discuss any condition you have and your experiences etc.

You cannot come along and say "I have X/Y/Z, what could it be?" and any attempts to do so are halted.

I can tell you this for nothing- you, and any other posters, can debate this endlessly, but the no medical advice rule is here to stay.

sleepyheadh

sam34 wrote: »

I'm a mod of that forum, and no, no you can't "talk about whatever the **** you want to over there".

You can discuss any condition you have and your experiences etc.

You cannot come along and say "I have X/Y/Z, what could it be?" and any attempts to do so are halted.

I can tell you this for nothing- you, and any other posters, can debate this endlessly, but the no medical advice rule is here to stay.

Go to the Top of the LTI forum, its a sticky thread- Tips for the Hayfever Sufferers"

Endless posts about what tablets people take, what they find good, what they felt were bad. What is this if not medical advice. I mean the title is tips for hay fever suffers. Im pretty sure if I started a thread for advice for pneumonia it would be stopped fairly quickly.

sleepyheadh

sam34 wrote: »

Common sense ain't all that common!

I see it every day in my clinics- people take all sorts of "advice" from all sorts of sources, for a variety of reasons. Sick people are vulnerable and sometimes will latch on to any glimmer of hope, however tenuous, rather than go the proper route and get their fears confirmed.

And it is at that point where you as the Doctor advise the patient as to why that is not the correct way to proceed with treatment.

would you prefer if your patients were mindless zombies that only listened to you, and did precisely what you said?

sleepyheadh

penguin88 wrote: »

What purpose would allowing medical advice serve?

You suggest the OP may be more informed as a result, but any advice given could be completely uninformed and incorrect. As you say yourself below, to get a diagnosis and treatment a person will have to visit a medical professional - what's the point in allowing medical advice be given by anonymous posters on the internet that may interfere with the process of seeking medical attention?

If the information the persons receives is incorrect it will be picked up by the GP. The information could be in some circumstances correct. In either case no harm has come from the information given from boards.

Its just like Mary from the Country, knowing that it is a viral infection. If it is the GP will diagnosis it as such, if not the GP will make the correct diagnosis and inform Mary thusly.

Kurtosis

sleepyheadh wrote: »

If the information the persons receives is incorrect it will be picked up by the GP. The information could be in some circumstances correct. In either case no harm has come from the information given from boards.

Its just like Mary from the Country, knowing that it is a viral infection. If it is the GP will diagnosis it as such, if not the GP will make the correct diagnosis and inform Mary thusly.

What benefit does getting this online medical advice provide?

What if as a result of advice received, a person delays or decided not to visit a medical professional, would no harm come from this?

sleepyheadh

penguin88 wrote: »

What benefit does getting this online medical advice provide?

What if as a result of advice received, a person delays or decided not to visit a medical professional, would no harm come from this?

And again if you read the first post. Clearly, I said the blanket response will always be "visit you GP". So there shouldn't be any issue with people delaying medical care.

As regards to online medical advice. It really is not a new thing, more and more people are arriving in GP's offices with a diagnosis already made. They have googled their symptoms and have made a diagnosis based on the results. Or maybe the person has went out and bought a copy of the oxford clinical handbook for example and thinks they know what is wrong. It is at that point where the GP must explain to the person that they have made the wrong diagnosis for whatever reasons.

Personally, I would much prefer to be dealing with knowledgeable, informed people, who take an active role in their health. As apposed to the old way of always respecting the Doctors diagnosis and threading them as some form of demigod, who are incapable of making mistakes.

gctest50

sam34 wrote: »

.....Sick people are vulnerable and sometimes will latch on to any glimmer of hope, however tenuous, rather than go the proper route and get their fears confirmed.

What makes it worse is there seems to be an endless stream of people who even in real life just want to get in with their little make-the-second-post-at-any-cost

Seems to go a little bit like this :

PersonA : i have this rash - must go to a doctor
PersonB : my auntsistersdoghad that - its XYZ-itis
PersonA goes to doctor - its ACB-itis

PersonB meets PersonA and asks about rash

PersonA : It was ACB-itis
PersonB : I was right so - thats what i said

RobFowl

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Personally, I would much prefer to be dealing with knowledgeable, informed people, who take an active role in their health.

Search for any thread here regarding vaccinations or "big pharma" and you might change your mind........

Some real tulips out there!

sleepyheadh

RobFowl wrote: »

Search for any thread here regarding vaccinations or "big pharma" and you might change your mind........

Some real tulips out there!

Im afraid, it won't change my mind Rob. I know all about these types of beliefs - wakefield et al. However, it is the role of the doctor to correct these types of attitudes. But their minds won't be changed by simply closing every thread where the subject comes up. These people need to be engaged in debate and shown the error of their thinking.

It's just like what happened in Wakefield. The media latched on to the idea presented by wakefield. Some believed the information without question and tragically people died. However, it was only through debate that the real nature of the paper was discovered.

The way I see it is Boards are taking up the idea that, in the case of wakefield for example, if you simply stop people talking about it it will go away. Well that isn't going to work and didn't work, its only by talking about these things that progress is made.

Kurtosis

sleepyheadh wrote: »

And again if you read the first post. Clearly, I said the blanket response will always be "visit you GP". So there shouldn't be any issue with people delaying medical care.

I did read your first post, which like the current post, does not make clear what benefit allowing medical advice would provide. As it stands currently, when a thread seeing medical advice is locked, posters are advised to visit an appropriate healthcare professional.

As regards to online medical advice. It really is not a new thing, more and more people are arriving in GP's offices with a diagnosis already made. They have googled their symptoms and have made a diagnosis based on the results. Or maybe the person has went out and bought a copy of the oxford clinical handbook for example and thinks they know what is wrong. It is at that point where the GP must explain to the person that they have made the wrong diagnosis for whatever reasons.

Personally, I would much prefer to be dealing with knowledgeable, informed people, who take an active role in their health. As apposed to the old way of always respecting the Doctors diagnosis and threading them as some form of demigod, who are incapable of making mistakes.

There are a number of reputable sources of medical information, some online. On the other side, why should Boards provide a further source of unregulated, uninformed medical advice?

sleepyheadh

penguin88 wrote: »

I did read your first post, which like the current post, does not make clear what benefit allowing medical advice would provide. As it stands currently, when a thread seeing medical advice is locked, posters are advised to visit an appropriate healthcare professional.

I said they will be advised at the start to visit their GP not at the end?!


[/QUOTE]There are a number of reputable sources of medical information, some online. On the other side, why should Boards provide a further source of unregulated, uninformed medical advice?[/QUOTE]

Why not?

sam34

sleepyheadh wrote: »

And it is at that point where you as the Doctor advise the patient as to why that is not the correct way to proceed with treatment.

would you prefer if your patients were mindless zombies that only listened to you, and did precisely what you said?

You're not getting this. People who take "advice" from randomers can end up delaying getting medical advice and thus worsening their own health.

Eg-I met a patient today who is psychotic and has been for quite sometime. Neither he nor his parents sought medical advice over the last few months because they'd read/listened to Conor Cusack saying that when he was depressed and anxious he had not responded to tablets and instead had gone to a psychologist and got cured that way. My patient and his parents decided/thought that his psychotic symptoms were reflective of depression, didn't go to a doctor because "Conor Cusack got better without tablets" and didn't go to a psychologist because they couldn't afford it privately, and they didn't know they could access it publicly. They only sought medical attention this week when the psychotic symptoms became particularly distressing and frightening. That guy is now on appropriate treatment, months later than he should have been, which worsens his prognosis, but thankfully before he had committed suicide.

sam34

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Go to the Top of the LTI forum, its a sticky thread- Tips for the Hayfever Sufferers"

Endless posts about what tablets people take, what they find good, what they felt were bad. What is this if not medical advice. I mean the title is tips for hay fever suffers. Im pretty sure if I started a thread for advice for pneumonia it would be stopped fairly quickly.

It's not medical advice- not diagnosing or offering advice based on that 'diagnosis'.

LTI is there for people to discuss their experiences of an illness and its treatment, not for people to post a cluster of symptoms and ask for a diagnosis.

sleepyheadh

sam34 wrote: »

You're not getting this. People who take "advice" from randomers can end up delaying getting medical advice and thus worsening their own health.

Eg-I met a patient today who is psychotic and has been for quite sometime. Neither he nor his parents sought medical advice over the last few months because they'd read/listened to Conor Cusack saying that when he was depressed and anxious he had not responded to tablets and instead had gone to a psychologist and got cured that way. My patient and his parents decided/thought that his psychotic symptoms were reflective of depression, didn't go to a doctor because "Conor Cusack got better without tablets" and didn't go to a psychologist because they couldn't afford it privately, and they didn't know they could access it publicly. They only sought medical attention this week when the psychotic symptoms became particularly distressing and frightening. That guy is now on appropriate treatment, months later than he should have been, which worsens his prognosis, but thankfully before he had committed suicide.

Again, in my first post "Obviously, the response will surely be "go and visit your GP".

What I am talking about is after the person is told to visit the GP. Yes you have giving an example of when it didn't work. But then if i give you an example of when someone read something on the internet and sought medical attention for it, is my point valid?

sleepyheadh

sam34 wrote: »

It's not medical advice- not diagnosing or offering advice based on that 'diagnosis'.

LTI is there for people to discuss their experiences of an illness and its treatment, not for people to post a cluster of symptoms and ask for a diagnosis.

Take this tablet, at this time, not this tablet at this time.. seems like advice to me mate!

drkpower

sleepyheadh wrote: »

Go to the Top of the LTI forum, its a sticky thread- Tips for the Hayfever Sufferers"

Endless posts about what tablets people take, what they find good, what they felt were bad. What is this if not medical advice. I mean the title is tips for hay fever suffers. Im pretty sure if I started a thread for advice for pneumonia it would be stopped fairly quickly.

Fair point; while there are obvious issues with allowing carte Blanche on medical advice, There is a degree of inconsistency between the various fora.

Kurtosis

sleepyheadh wrote: »

I said they will be advised at the start to visit their GP not at the end?!

Well if the first piece of advice is to visit their GP, what help is further advice?

There are a number of reputable sources of medical information, some online. On the other side, why should Boards provide a further source of unregulated, uninformed medical advice?

Why not?

Why should boards.ie not provide a platform for unregulated, uninformed medical advice? The clue is in the question, uninformed, unregulated medical advice is not a good thing. What benefit would such advice provide? You still have not made this clear.