***ALL THINGS IRISH WATER/WATER CHARGE RELATED POST HERE***

Tinkersbell

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Yes, i completely agree with him. Gardaí are there to uphold the law. The scandals and whistleblowing issues aside, most try to do that to the best of their abilities. But your friend is spot on. On the one side, we have the employees of Irish Water just trying to make a living and installing the meters as their contract obliges them to do. On the other, you have people who are rightly annoyed with it and can't afford any more bills, cuts or taxes, and do not want the meters installed. Then, in the middle, you have the Gardaí, who are there to protect both sides, but also get hassle from both sides. The saying "damned if you do, damned if you don't" comes to mind.

Members are being sent to these protests with no instructions, no clear courses of action, and no comments from management to the public to express their concerns over it. All along, up until the real momentum that the Anti Irish Water crowd were getting, it was easy enough; prevent breaches of the peace, and that was possible because the protesters were peaceful. But now things are taking a turn for the worse, certain crowds are getting nasty and attacking Gardaí, attacking Irish Water installers, damaging property, and this latest one of preventing Emergency Vehicles from leaving Garda stations to respond to a potentially life threatening situation. And still, no back up, no comments.

Well I don't envy you in your job.
Seems it was tough enough getting with the cuts, the ****ty cars etc.
Unfortunately, something was going to make the people snap and this latest tax seems to be it.
Kenny & Co better take notice, and take notice fast.
The damage that's been done is getting quite serious by the looks of it.

Stargate

donvito99 wrote: »

This is what I was looking for, I've a good idea of the person I'm dealing with here now.

Stargate wrote: »

Enda Kenny ????

donvito99 wrote: »

No. A romantic.

I have heard Enda called a lot of things but romantic wasn't one of them.

In a way i feel sad to see our people and our country come to this , It's like this IW situation is pitting one against the other. For all that's been said from both sides , it's sad to see how divided the country is becoming.

Can you imagine the damage this is doing to community policing for the future ?

Potential-Monke

moxin wrote: »

That's their problem for their financial problems, over extending themselves on mortgages.

But aren't the Gardai getting overtime for all these protests? If the policing is so stressful, try the blue flu

Yes, it is their problem, but it's a problem that didn't exist before the majority of members suddenly got cut €100+ a week and had overtime all but stopped. If members can get through this to the other side, it will be lessons well learned, and hopefully those same members will be able to keep an eye on the newer members, and try and prevent them getting into the same situation. But, are not quite a high majority of the private sector in the same situation? Granted, yes, AGS have fairly high job security, but with that security comes all the other pitfalls of being a member, these protests and they're aftermath being prime examples. Should we be saying to all those who lost their jobs that it's their problem for getting mortgages and loans? If everyone was to worry they were going to lose their job or not be able to afford repayments, no one would spend a penny!

Longstand14 wrote: »

Do you mean to tell me that Guards are becoming disillusioned with their jobs over the water protests?? Something at which they are highly trained for to deal with.

In fairness its hardly the 'London Riots' out there on a daily basis.

I'd love to know where people seem to think this high level of training comes from. Yes, they are considered some of the best trained by outside police forces, simply because they are unarmed. But a few hours of self defence is hardly adequate to consider it highly trained. The public order units, however, are highly trained. But there's not a lot of them.

And yes, it's far from the London Riots. But keeping in mind, the numbers for both protesters and police are far from what London has. Smaller cities, smaller police forces. So while it's far from that level, it's still similar in scale with regards to numbers.

And to the person who said something about overtime (can't remember and forgot to multi-quote), no, there is no overtime. Because there is no money. And if members are crucially required to be brought in, yes, the overtime will be found, but this is as a last resort. Currently, it's members who are working in nearby stations at that time who are being drafted in.

moxin

donvito99 wrote: »

they're only human, and I'd hardly describe linking arms as adequate public order training. The Gardaí have behaved in an exemplary sort of way when they're confronted by shouty people with cameras, with a few noticeable exceptions that I've not seen before in similar demonstrations like ShelltoSea. It's understandable that it would bother them when they get home.

The difference between Shell to Sea and this is that Shell to Sea was a rural protest involving smaller number of protesters and the water protest is urban with big numbers involved. Plus some of the Gardai involved most likely live in urban areas.

Potential-Monke

tayto lover wrote: »

That is not a nice position to be put in at all in fairness.
It all boils down to bad leadership in the Govt, IW and the Garda.

Yes, it is bad leadership, but keeping in mind that the members on the ground are not in leadership positions.

dxhound2005

Further to what I posted earlier this is a more detailed report of today's court case. And is relevant to what has been discussed in the last few pages. I hope that this will result in a more orderly atmosphere at future protests and allow the Gardai to enforce the law. They will probably have to suffer the up close filming and abuse while keeping it away from the workers but they have shown that they can handle this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/court-grants-water-meter-installers-20-metre-exclusion-zone-1.1989537

The order also injuncts protestors from blocking IW contractor vehicles entering or leaving the areas covered. This is part of what the judge said:

The video evidence taken at protests in October appeared to show “a significant deviation from lawful protesting” while other evidence seemed to suggest workers were being intimidated, assaulted and had been followed home, he said.

The people named in the injunction will be back in court.

The company’s application for other orders, including possible jailing orders for alleged contempt, was adjourned for two weeks to allow the respondents lawyers seek clarification about legal aid issues.

Streetwalker

It was always going to come to this tbh. You just can't keep pushing people to pay for things they can't afford. The debt on the nation is far too big and FG did fu ck all about getting us a good deal in terms of repayment. Now they are left with a disgruntled populace who are saying enough is enough. In my opinion one of two things need to happen here, either the government back down and admit IW was a mistake or this will get worse and further divide our people. Given the state of the eejits in charge of the nation I'm.afraid option two is the more likely.

ROCKMAN

Potential-Monke wrote: »

You know what, i'll take the ban. **** off. You haven't a clue what you're talking about. The "peaceful" brigade are anything but, otherwise the Gardaí would not be required. And now, people are attacking the stations, stopping Emergency vehicles getting out and responding to calls, shouting virtolic bile are the Gardaí defending themselves and the station while all the while chanting "peaceful protest". I hope to God that every one of these absolute scum get genital cancer and die a horrible, excruciating death, because that's all they deserve. Not a ****ing ounce of cop on between them.

I'm absolutely sick of these people thinking they know the law, their rights and everything else under the sun. ****ing morons of the highest order!

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Couldn't give a rats arse what people on a forum think of me. People get the police force they look for, and as it currently stands they will be getting a more militarised force, because this disgraceful behaviour will end up causing that. And, oh no, a random person on the internet wished something hurtful against a group of "protesters", what's the world coming to. I wish quite a lot of things, mainly to win the lotto so i can get the **** out of this country which is quickly going down the drain. Doesn't mean it will happen, or that i genuinely want it.

I reacted the same way these protesters are acting. Yet all of a sudden i'm the bad guy. That excuse of a Facebook page has countless posts looking for details of the members in the videos, stating that she will get hers, one person stating that they're going to petrol bomb the station. And ye defend these people? The same people who can't tell the difference between keeping the peace and supporting a private organisation. That speaks volumes.

And to be honest, i honestly don't think anyone in AGS gives a flying **** what these "people" think of them. They know that the good, law abiding citizens are behind them anyway, and this group of idiots are but a minority. Unfortunately, the people of Ireland have plenty of sheeple who will believe anything they read. Private police force me hole. All AGS cares about right now is the safety of it's members, who are have serious safety concerns because of a group of ****ing idiots. People doing their jobs, families to go home to, but shur they're wearing a uniform, so they must be scum and deserving of this behaviour.

As i said, i have no problem with peaceful protests, these are far from it. These are lynch mobs with mob rule, run by criminals with chips on their shoulders and supported by other criminals and the easily led. **** them, **** the people on here who agree with them, and **** anyone who thinks this is the right way to go about things.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Oh no, a random person on the internet sarcastically thinks i'm a credit to the force. Whatever shall i do. And you seem to think that by saying something on here is clearly showing how i do my job? Cop on to yourself. I'm a professional, i do my job professionally. I treat people as they treat me. And you know what? I'm good at it. I would say ask my bosses, but you probably couldn't care that there are actually good Gardaí out there. We're all corrupt. We're all cancelling fines (which, as is already well documented, Garda rank cannot do), we take bribes, etc, blah, blah, blah. I don't bring my personal feelings to work, but you probably won't believe that either. So, meh.



I think you'll find the vast majority haven't. I hear it every day, people say it to me. But again, why should you believe me. After all, i'm just a random person on the internet, expressing their view.

People are seriously demented if they think Irish Water are supported by the Gardaí. Every Garda has much better things to be doing other than babysitting the rent-a-crowd preventing normal workers from doing their jobs. They don't want to be there, but are there as a necessity, and are confronted by crowds who honestly believe the Gardaí are taking the side of Irish Water. They're not, they're taking the side of the law, and these mobs are breaking the laws.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Ok, just to respond directly to this, and then i'm done. How do you feel about those wishing assault on Gardaí? I wish death on quite a lot of people, but just because i wish it doesn't mean i want it to happen. It's a figure of speech in an attempt to convey my feelings. Sure, probably shoulnd't have said it, but it's said and there's nothing i can do about it now. I'm pretty sure members of the police force get these threats every day of the week, i wouldn't know, i'm not one of them, or can't identify myself as one if i was. So, again, i'm an anonymous person posting their feelings.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Yeah, i did, and i have, and it would be too good for some of these people. Do you take everything you read on an internet forum to heart?



No, on here i'm an anonymous citizen of Ireland. These are the comments of a person, not a Garda. I'm not allowed identify myself as one on the internet. Gardaí are muted, they cannot stand up for themselves, and the Government doesn't stand up for them either. And let them work out who i am, i've gone beyond the point of caring anymore, because regardless of what happens, i'm on my own anyway.

I'm disillusioned with this country and it's actions, blaming an innocent organisation for Government decisions in this very particular debate. Yes, there are bad people in the job, there are bad people in every job, but just because i had a bad experience with a plumber, and because there's a whole host of bad plumbing examples out there, doesn't mean that i think all plumbers are incompetent and useless. The same should apply to AGS, but it doesn't. People want something to blame, and AGS are an easy target.

I'm leaving this now, because it's just not worth it. I hope that those who are so anti-Garda never need them, because these mobs are doing nothing for the force, they are negatively affecting those trying to do an honest job. I could guarantee that a very high number would quit if they could financially afford it. Country will be well and truly ****ed if that happens, because the military would be brought in, and they won't take half the ****e that AGS do.

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I don't know why, but i keep posting. First off, let me apologise for the comment. It was said in a heated moment, and i shouldn't have said it. So i'm sorry. I'm not even going to try and explain why it was said, because that would take a book. I obviously didn't actually mean it, and i'm not backtracking, i'm apologising. Now....


.

I may have believed your apology and that it was just a moment of madness but for the fact that you defended your view for over 2 hours (the part I highlighted was nearly 2 hours after ordinary post , So please forgive when if I tell you to stick your apology and I honest believe it came from fear of been recognised and reported than anything else.

You sir are a disgrace to the uniform and if a few post on the internet can make you act like this I would hate to see you it a real pressure situation

Streetwalker

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Further to what I posted earlier this is a more detailed report of today's court case. And is relevant to what has been discussed in the last few pages. I hope that this will result in a more orderly atmosphere at future protests and allow the Gardai to enforce the law. They will probably have to suffer the up close filming and abuse while keeping it away from the workers but they have shown that they can handle this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/court-grants-water-meter-installers-20-metre-exclusion-zone-1.1989537

The order also injuncts protestors from blocking IW contractor vehicles entering or leaving the areas covered. This is part of what the judge said:

The video evidence taken at protests in October appeared to show “a significant deviation from lawful protesting” while other evidence seemed to suggest workers were being intimidated, assaulted and had been followed home, he said.

The people named in the injunction will be back in court.

The company’s application for other orders, including possible jailing orders for alleged contempt, was adjourned for two weeks to allow the respondents lawyers seek clarification about legal aid issues.

Huge mistake by the judge that will unfortunatly further antagonise the situation.

Streetwalker

Ah the guy apologised let it go. We all have said things we regret online for f u c k sake.

ROCKMAN

Streetwalker wrote: »

Ah the guy apologised let it go. We all have said things we regret online for f u c k sake.

First of all ,only catching up on thread now ,so feel I have ever right to express my view and secondly an apology is not going to make it right or sweep it under the carpet for some people who have watched loved ones die in unbelievable pain,

Phoebas

Streetwalker wrote: »

Huge mistake by the judge that will unfortunatly further antagonise the situation.

The order is a response to the situation already being antagonised by unlawful protesting.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

It's done and dusted. Move on from it please.

dxhound2005

Streetwalker wrote: »

Huge mistake by the judge that will unfortunatly further antagonise the situation.

If the protestors turn up in courthouses chanting slogans and disrupting proceedings they will meet with a firm response. Judges don't like that sort of thing. Neither do they like people breaking injunctions. There have been no protests in Dundalk since a couple of the ringleaders were ordered to stay away from meter installations and one of them was kept in custody until he remembered his name.

http://talkofthetown.ie/2014/10/02/four-arrested-in-dundalk-following-water-meter-protest/

Wurly

This is an excellent article taken from the Irish Times. It talks about a lot of the points raised in this thread. Full article here http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/the-irish-water-debacle-why-the-state-is-heading-towards-being-ungovernable-1.1986550?page=2

It’s about injustice, and it’s justified. The recent budget was the fourth regressive budget in a row. Four times, the Government has coldly and deliberately decided to hit the weakest and poorest hardest. This has nothing to do with “austerity”. The “austerity” budgets under Fianna Fáil between 2008 and 2011 were mildly progressive – they hit the better-off harder than the worst-off. But every budget under Fine Gael and Labour (Labour!) has quietly reversed this trend. In last month’s budget, the average combined impact of the tax and welfare measures and of water charges on the lowest income households is to reduce their income by about 1 per cent. For the one-fifth of households with the highest incomes, there is a gain of about 0.5 per cent.

But if you’re in a poor household, you’re going to feel that you’re living in a lie. You will hear commentators on the radio and TV saying repeatedly that poor people don’t pay tax – in fact, because of VAT (a regressive tax increased in recent budgets) the bottom 10 per cent of households pay almost the same percentage of their incomes in tax (28 per cent) as the top 10 per cent (29 per cent).

And in this Irish Water is a warning – a democracy that hollows out a sense of genuine common purpose slowly moves towards ungovernability. Too many people don’t believe that the State has their interests at heart. They don’t see the give-and-take of citizenship because they have experienced too much take and too little give.

Potential-Monke

Banjo String wrote: »

de a claim that people are offering money in exchange for some members of the Gardaí names and addresses.

You didnt give a source.

Sorry to be posting again, but you did look for a source. This is a screencap from the page "Darndale Says No" on Facebook. It has since been removed i believe, but in the interest of fairness i said i'd post it. Along with a couple of other posts which lead to my earlier meltdown and subsequent idiocy.

It's not even the content of the messages (first one aside), it's knowing that there won't be any statement or follow up to this public incitement. It's knowing that members are expected to look at this, shrug, and pretend that it won't happen, when there is a possibility that some nut with a grudge might actually do this, potentially hurting Gardaí, members of the public who may be in the stations, or prisoners locked into cells.

tigger123

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Sorry to be posting again, but you did look for a source. This is a screencap from the page "Darndale Says No" on Facebook. It has since been removed i believe, but in the interest of fairness i said i'd post it. Along with a couple of other posts which lead to my earlier meltdown and subsequent idiocy.

It's not even the content of the messages (first one aside), it's knowing that there won't be any statement or follow up to this public incitement. It's knowing that members are expected to look at this, shrug, and pretend that it won't happen, when there is a possibility that some nut with a grudge might actually do this, potentially hurting Gardaí, members of the public who may be in the stations, or prisoners locked into cells.

Would love to see legal action taken against the people saying those things, even if it is online. The definition of keyboard warriors.

_Kaiser_

In other news..

The Trichet letter is released today and it reveals as was widely expected, that the previous government were effectively blackmailed into the "bailout"

How is this relevant to this thread you might ask? Well if there's one thing I've learned from Irish politics, it's that when things get bad, the government will try the "bait and switch" tactic.

Will be interesting what further announcements are made around IW in the next few days while the media attention focuses on this.

mrsbyrne

Im on a mobile so cant do screenshots but in the last 24 hours on Edenmore Says No page I have seen calls for a Garda (picture snd number displayed) to be "raped in every hole". The other night someone wanted to follow a Garda home and kidnap his kids.utter scumbags these people are. Leeches and parasites.
Actually just checked its the Tsoiseach they want raped. The Garda they want to pour petrol on and set alite.

dxhound2005

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

In other news..

The Trichet letter is released today and it reveals as was widely expected, that the previous government were effectively blackmailed into the "bailout"

How is this relevant to this thread you might ask? Well if there's one thing I've learned from Irish politics, it's that when things get bad, the government will try the "bait and switch" tactic.

Will be interesting what further announcements are made around IW in the next few days while the media attention focuses on this.

If there are futher annoncements they will get some media coverage. I am able to follow more than one story at a time but for the less media savvy I'm sure you will keep the thread informed.

I don't think the media could be accused of not reporting all things Irish Water to date.

VinLieger

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

In other news..

The Trichet letter is released today and it reveals as was widely expected, that the previous government were effectively blackmailed into the "bailout"

How is this relevant to this thread you might ask? Well if there's one thing I've learned from Irish politics, it's that when things get bad, the government will try the "bait and switch" tactic.

Will be interesting what further announcements are made around IW in the next few days while the media attention focuses on this.

The government had nothing to do with that letter getting released when it did, take off your tinfoil hat

knarkypants

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

In other news..


Will be interesting what further announcements are made around IW in the next few days while the media attention focuses on this.

Everyone will get €100 cash just to sign up for the water charges. The term "brown envelope" springs to mind. :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/100-cash-for-everybody-in-plan-to-quell-water-anger-30722769.html

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Im on a mobile so cant do screenshots but in the last 24 hours on Edenmore Says No page I have seen calls for a Garda (picture snd number displayed) to be "raped in every hole". The other night someone wanted to follow a Garda home and kidnap his kids.utter scumbags these people are. Leeches and parasites.
Actually just checked its the Tsoiseach they want raped. The Garda they want to pour petrol on and set alite.

That's disgusting. I do hope the Gardaí are aware this and investigate it. That sort of behaviour is not acceptable, no one deserves to be threatened like that.

tigger123

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Im on a mobile so cant do screenshots but in the last 24 hours on Edenmore Says No page I have seen calls for a Garda (picture snd number displayed) to be "raped in every hole". The other night someone wanted to follow a Garda home and kidnap his kids.utter scumbags these people are. Leeches and parasites.
Actually just checked its the Tsoiseach they want raped. The Garda they want to pour petrol on and set alite.

Stay classy Edenmore.

ROCKMAN

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Sorry to be posting again, but you did look for a source. This is a screencap from the page "Darndale Says No" on Facebook. It has since been removed i believe, but in the interest of fairness i said i'd post it. Along with a couple of other posts which lead to my earlier meltdown and subsequent idiocy.

It's not even the content of the messages (first one aside), it's knowing that there won't be any statement or follow up to this public incitement. It's knowing that members are expected to look at this, shrug, and pretend that it won't happen, when there is a possibility that some nut with a grudge might actually do this, potentially hurting Gardaí, members of the public who may be in the stations, or prisoners locked into cells.

Sorry mods ..but have to reply

I DO NOT for one minute support any of their ideas or notions But...
Maybe it was just a moment of madness from these people and a nicely worded Apology will make it all better.

DrumSteve

VinLieger wrote: »

The government had nothing to do with that letter getting released when it did, take off your tinfoil hat

It was an FOI request from the Times afaik.

VinLieger

DrumSteve wrote: »

It was an FOI request from the Times afaik.

Nope the ECB were refusing to publish the letter, seems like the times got their hands on it somehow

Ghost Buster

Heres my take at this point on the IW situation:

In theory i CAN afford to pay for water. It would be a massive struggle and my already frugal life style will get even more so and would probably involve an all ready glowing credit card but I could do it. Perhaps my 4 days camping on Achill which constitutes a family holiday wold have to go but I could do this....
But i wont because , perhaps as a result of being the youngest of a large family I have this over whelming sense of fair play. I have a compulsion to see justice done, i HATE the thought of people simply getting away with things. I have always been prepared to suffer just to satisfy this compulsion.
I honestly would prefer to see the entire IW AND political system collapse and to see things get worse here financially just to see fair play.
Denis O'Brien, Hubert Kearns, John Tierney, Coleman Shanley, the 6 figure salaries, the expenses, the back handers, the cronyism, it drives me nuts, possibly from a childish level (Youngest of a large family again!!)
I would see the country go to rat **** for a spell just to see an end to this bolloxx

Streetwalker

tigger123 wrote: »

Stay classy Edenmore.

Yeah because everyone in Edenmore wants that. Lol.

Some of the stuff in here is off the charts.

Daith

VinLieger wrote: »

Nope the ECB were refusing to publish the letter, seems like the times got their hands on it somehow

Because it was leaked. Hence the actual FOI requests being ignored. Unless you want to explain the "somehow" in more detail?

geeksauce

hju6 wrote: »

Where to start with a post so full of begrudgery ?

Unless your unemployed Nieghbour does not eat, use electricity or gas, or infact does not consume anything then he pays no tax.

If I was paying more tax than you, I could turn around and say that I am subsidising you and your family, by contributing more than you.

And what of the long term sick and disabled do you begrudge paying for their water?

Well let me see for a start I also pay electricity, I eat and pay the same taxes on those goods that my neighbour pays, so by that theory I already pay for my water twice. Either that or my water is more expensive than my unemployed neighbours.

Also there is the issue that the money I use to pay for goods that you claim my unemployed neighbour pays taxes on I have earned as I have provided a service in return for the money I have, whereas my unemployed neighbour has provided nothing in return for his money, so I could easily make an argument that it is in fact not his money, it is money given to him out of my taxes so I am paying the taxes on the services and goods he is buying as well on those I buy.

Basically I go to work full time, Johnny next door sits around his house all day doing nothing. At the end of the week I get paid by my employer for the work I did for him, the government knock on my door on a Friday evening and have a look at what I have been paid, they then decide that they are taking €200 tax from me and are going to give this into Johnny next door, because poor old Johnny hasn't had a job for 10 years and needs the money. And sure I can afford it because I have a job.

Great says I, take my wages that I worked my ass off for and give them into Johnny for doing nothing all week. Oh well I guess that's how our wonderful society works I say. But....before leaving the government turn to me and say they want another €20 out of my wages because they have the expense of providing me with water, right I say that seems fair enough I use water so I should pay for water, here is the €20.

I then think poor old Johnny wont be happy having to pay €20 for water as he is always moaning about how poor he is, but it's ok say the government sure they wont be asking Johnny for €20 for his water. No?? How come I say. And they then tell me that the €20 I just gave them is for both me and Johnny €10 for me €10 for him. Hang on a second I think that's not fair why do I have to pay for his water as well as my own?

Sure you have a job they say, you can afford it. But at the end of the week when I have paid all my taxes and given some of my wages to Johnny for his SW payment and more then for his water I have less disposable income than Johnny, I have the cost of travel to work, the cost of childcare while I am in work and I don't receive state support for my accommodation or healthcare. Ah sure it's grand say the Government you have a job aren't you lucky, poor old Johnny hasn't worked in 10 years we couldn't possibly ask him to contribute.