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Israel - Palestine History
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Have you read all this thread? That situation is completely different. The UN resolution for partition was not accepted in 1947 resulting in civil was until 1948 when the Arab states invaded.
You can't just come out with a statement like that and then expect to move goalposts around to suit it in hindsight. It really was a crazy thing to say.0 -
You can't just come out with a statement like that and then expect to move goalposts around to suit it in hindsight. It really was a crazy thing to say.
It was not a crazy thing to say. The circumstances of WW2 show no resemblance to that of Israel. It's ridiculous to compare the two.0 -
It was not a crazy thing to say. The circumstances of WW2 show no resemblance to that of Israel. It's ridiculous to compare the two.
"If Palestine Germany came out on top, I would support Palestine Germany as the two sides both went to war fully knowing the consequences of their actions."
Maybe I'm just missing something?0 -
"If Palestine Germany came out on top, I would support Palestine Germany as the two sides both went to war fully knowing the consequences of their actions."
Maybe I'm just missing something?
Have you read my original post at the start of this thread?
The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947 resolution as envisaged by the General Assembly. It was followed by outbreaks of violence in Mandatory Palestine between Palestinian Jews and Arabs known as the 1947–48 Civil War. The Arab Higher Committee was confident and decided to prevent the set-up of the UN-backed partition plan. In an announcement made to the Secretary-General on 6 February 1947, they declared:
"The Palestinian Arabs consider any attempt by Jewish people or by whatever power or group of power to establish a Jewish state in an Arab territory to be an act of aggression that will be resisted by force"
The Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition. Zionists also refused to accept the partition plan. All of this created a recipe for disaster.
How does this resemble WW2 in any way?0 -
Have you read my original post at the start of this thread?
The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947 resolution as envisaged by the General Assembly. It was followed by outbreaks of violence in Mandatory Palestine between Palestinian Jews and Arabs known as the 1947–48 Civil War. The Arab Higher Committee was confident and decided to prevent the set-up of the UN-backed partition plan. In an announcement made to the Secretary-General on 6 February 1947, they declared:
"The Palestinian Arabs consider any attempt by Jewish people or by whatever power or group of power to establish a Jewish state in an Arab territory to be an act of aggression that will be resisted by force"
The Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition. Zionists also refused to accept the partition plan. All of this created a recipe for disaster.
How does this resemble WW2 in any way?
That clears it up, looks like I wasn't actually missing anything.0 -
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It would have been impossible to establish Israel without WW1 and WW2.
Israel is a bi-product of these conflicts.
That is an objective fact.0 -
Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine.
What does it matter whether they are Arabs or Palestinians or Lilliputians? They were bullied individually out of their homes and collectively out of their homeland. People as a rule are defined and named by themselves and it is a further arrogance for Zionists to attempt to abrogate this role to themselves.
You keep harping on with this mantra and all the other old Zionist shibboleths. You should report back to your handler that this gauche propaganda has backfired, has simply exposed the Zionist position for the threadbare case that it is.0 -
Is it civilized for Palestinians to launch missiles against Israeli civilians? None of this is civilized. Rather than negotiating both sides had war after after. Granted, Israel do use much more sophisticated weaponry resulting in what they do to be deadlier.
The comparison between what whoever are launching unguided rockets into Israel and what Israel are using to obliterate children is actually the difference between fireworks and heavy military hardware, fireworks are dangerous, they can seriously injure and kill, but its nothing near the level of dropping high explosive ordinance, cluster bombs and white phosphorus on people. How many Israelis have been killed or injured by this? what kind of infrastructure or long term damage in human, economic or other terms has occured in Israel? how many Palestinians have been killed or maimed? can you honestly tell anyone this is right or that anything justifies whats happening.
If this is the face of Israel, its time that country is left outside the civilised world and not dealt or traded with until it changes.
Im not defending anyone firing these unguided rockets, but given the history of violence against the Palestinians, I'm not suprised.The Arab Higher Committee was confident and decided to prevent the set-up of the UN-backed partition plan. In an announcement made to the UN Secretary-General on 6 February 1947, they declared:
"The Palestinian Arabs consider any attempt by Jewish people or by whatever power or group of power to establish a Jewish state in an Arab territory to be an act of aggression that will be resisted by force"
Let us say that there was never any wars between the two sides, I would support having two states. You have to understand I can't support having two states after both sides went to war with each other with intentions of completely destroying one another. Israel shouldn't put to blame because they came out on top.
If Palestine came out on top, I would support Palestine as the two sides both went to war fully knowing the consequences of their actions.
So,you agree that the Palestinians were subject to aggression and you believe because they defended themselves and lost this conflict, they lost all right to the territory they occupied? so they should have not defended themselves against attacks by their guests? because there were more than a few instances of people being rounded up and shot, how could they not defend themselves against this.0 -
So,you agree that the Palestinians were subject to aggression and you believe because they defended themselves and lost this conflict, they lost all right to the territory they occupied? so they should have not defended themselves against attacks by their guests? because there were more than a few instances of people being rounded up and shot, how could they not defend themselves against this.
Both sides were subject to aggression, both went on the offensive which started the civil war. Every party is to blame, including the UN, for the civil war.
The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947 resolution as envisaged by the General Assembly. It was followed by outbreaks of violence in Mandatory Palestine between Palestinian Jews and Arabs known as the 1947–48 Civil War. The Arab Higher Committee was confident and decided to prevent the set-up of the UN-backed partition plan. In an announcement made to the Secretary-General on 6 February 1947, they declared:
"The Palestinian Arabs consider any attempt by Jewish people or by whatever power or group of power to establish a Jewish state in an Arab territory to be an act of aggression that will be resisted by force"
The Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition. Zionists also refused to accept the partition plan. Ben-Gurion stated:
“There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%”
You have to understand no one cared about the partition plan in 1947, both Arabs and Jews would have used it as kindling for fire. My stance on this situation would be much different if the Arabs accepted the partition plans while the Jewish people did not. They can't go back to that partition plan due to them losing, likewise Jewish people wouldn't be able to go back to that partition plan due to losing. It would be like Ireland refusing to accept partition from the British believing they could drive them from Ireland. The British military then secure Ireland and we go back to ask the British can we have partition now because we lost.0 -
Both sides were subject to aggression, both went on the offensive which started the civil war. Every party is to blame, including the UN, for the civil war.
The Partition Plan was not realized in the days following the 29 November 1947 resolution as envisaged by the General Assembly. It was followed by outbreaks of violence in Mandatory Palestine between Palestinian Jews and Arabs known as the 1947–48 Civil War. The Arab Higher Committee was confident and decided to prevent the set-up of the UN-backed partition plan. In an announcement made to the Secretary-General on 6 February 1947, they declared:
"The Palestinian Arabs consider any attempt by Jewish people or by whatever power or group of power to establish a Jewish state in an Arab territory to be an act of aggression that will be resisted by force"
The Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition. Zionists also refused to accept the partition plan. Ben-Gurion stated:
“There can be no stable and strong Jewish state so long as it has a Jewish majority of only 60%”
To be honest what the Palestinians declared seems very reasonable, it seems likely anyone would view that the same way.
However, the Zionists as you say refused the plan, so a seperate state was not good enough for them ever anyway, so they went on a course for war, with the intent of that all along as it considers by your quote that they didnt believe they had enough people to sustain such a state, so they took it over by force, and also what you havent mentioned is they even took (thats stole) the majority of the land the Palestinians were supposed to be left with in the partition plan, which you say the zionists didnt accept anyway, so they never had any intent of sharing the land, which they never had any right to anyway.0 -
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To be honest what the Palestinians declared seems very reasonable, it seems likely anyone would view that the same way.
However, the Zionists as you say refused the plan, so a seperate state was not good enough for them ever anyway, so they went on a course for war, with the intent of that all along as it considers by your quote that they didnt believe they had enough people to sustain such a state, so they took it over by force, and also what you havent mentioned is they even took (thats stole) the majority of the land the Palestinians were supposed to be left with in the partition plan, which you say the zionists didnt accept anyway, so they never had any intent of sharing the land, which they never had any right to anyway.
Explain to me why they had no right to it? It had been part of the British Empire, before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire, before that the Mamluks controlled it.
You have to understand no one cared about the partition plan in 1947, both Arabs and Jews would have used it as kindling for fire. My stance on this situation would be much different if the Arabs accepted the partition plans while the Jewish people did not. They can't go back to that partition plan due to them losing, likewise Jewish people wouldn't be able to go back to that partition plan due to losing. It would be like Ireland refusing to accept partition from the British believing they could drive them from Ireland. The British military then secure Ireland and we go back to ask the British can we have partition now because we lost.0 -
Explain to me why they had no right to it? It had been part of the British Empire, before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire.
You have to understand no one cared about the partition plan in 1947, both Arabs and Jews would have used it as kindling for fire. My stance on this situation would be much different if the Arabs accepted the partition plans while the Jewish people did not. They can't go back to that partition plan due to them losing, likewise Jewish people wouldn't be able to go back to that partition plan due to losing. It would be like Ireland refusing to accept partition from the British believing they could drive them from Ireland. The British military then secure Ireland and we go back to ask the British can we have partition now because we lost.
you are not reading what I have written, so you are clearly not listening, and I doubt you do.
I never said the Palestinians lost and then decided to go back to the partition plan, I said the Zionists all along had every intention of taking as much land as they could be force. They colonised that land as it was clearly occupied by another people, in the most part their numbers were guests only from recent history.
All that is irrelevant, I am sure there are some decent people in Israel, even at one point Officers of the IAF refused or voiced concern over the bombing of civilians and it seems they were sidelined, sent to jail and silenced. Israel exists whether I think its right or wrong in 1947.
The mistreatement and denial of even basic rights, its way beyond that, shows that whats going on needs to stop, people thats civilians, children, men and women should not be targeted and bombed into submission in this day, its a collective punishment for people that have done no wrong, the Israelis responsible for responding to this are happy to play into the hands of those few that have fired these toy rockets and vica versa. The Zionists just want the Gaza strip vacated, the people cant leave so they are being snubbed out of existence.
Its inhumane and if that is the stance of a so called civilised democracy then its time they are sidelined in the world.
No one cared?? the people who were there at the time cared, Mamalukes ffs0 -
By your rationale
I can decide I want my neighbours house/wife/car.
I get someone to make a law to say we share the disputed assets.
Neither of us want this, I know this will never happen so I just invade his home and if he defends himself and loses, I have automatic rights to his property/wife/car.
If he tries to take it back in the future I claim Im the victim and he's trying to rob me and Im legitimate in any response.0 -
you are not reading what I have written, so you are clearly not listening, and I doubt you do.
I never said the Palestinians lost and then decided to go back to the partition plan, I said the Zionists all along had every intention of taking as much land as they could be force. They colonised that land as it was clearly occupied by another people, in the most part their numbers were guests only from recent history.
All that is irrelevant, I am sure there are some decent people in Israel, even at one point Officers of the IAF refused or voiced concern over the bombing of civilians and it seems they were sidelined, sent to jail and silenced. Israel exists whether I think its right or wrong in 1947.
The mistreatement and denial of even basic rights, its way beyond that, shows that whats going on needs to stop, people thats civilians, children, men and women should not be targeted and bombed into submission in this day, its a collective punishment for people that have done no wrong, the Israelis responsible for responding to this are happy to play into the hands of those few that have fired these toy rockets and vica versa. The Zionists just want the Gaza strip vacated, the people cant leave so they are being snubbed out of existence.
Its inhumane and if that is the stance of a so called civilised democracy then its time they are sidelined in the world.
No one cared?? the people who were there at the time cared, Mamalukes ffs
You seem to want to solely blame Israel, I blame both sides. Do you not understand that neither Arabs or Zionists were going to let either state be created? I get the impression that you want to solely blame the Jewish people.
As I've already mentioned: "You have to understand no one cared about the partition plan in 1947, both Arabs and Jews would have used it as kindling for fire"
Also, that example you provided does not apply to this situation at all. Think about it. Britain owned the land, it was called British Mandate and they decided to divide it between the two groups. How does that example apply?0 -
You seem to want to solely blame Israel, I blame both sides.
Britain did not "own the land" in the simplistic sense you imply. Had they done so in the colonial manner, you (according to an earlier statement) would consider that wrong.
It's very hard to see what point you're making, other than attempt to justify the colonisation of the West Bank and Occupied Territories through fairly incoherent c&p's of 20th century history.0 -
You seem to want to solely blame Israel, I blame both sides. Do you not understand that neither Arabs or Zionists were going to let either state be created? I get the impression that you want to solely blame the Jewish people.
As I've already mentioned: "You have to understand no one cared about the partition plan in 1947, both Arabs and Jews would have used it as kindling for fire"
Also, that example you provided does not apply to this situation at all. Think about it. Britain owned the land, it was called British Mandate and they decided to divide it between the two groups. How does that example apply?
It seems that neither side wanted the other to create a state, even a shared occupation isn't right as its taking ownership of the land off people that were already present.
YOU have just twisted it and brought in the Jewish faith, Ive nothing against Jewish people or anyones right to follow their chosen religion or said anything referring to it, have I?
I dislike when its used as a tool by any group for their own ends and I think people see through it now.
I believe zionists are responsible for the ongoing problem from its creation, when a state was carved out of the land when another group were already present. The zionists also attacked the British and carried out terrorist acts against them, possibly even while WW2 was ongoing, acts they now oppose when carried out by the Palestinians against them.
No one cared you think? But they did care, they cared enough to oppose it, they fought each other over it, I think the people present at the time did care. I just think the Palestinian side didnt have access to the influence and money as did the side that opposed them.
British mandate only existed after WW1, not even immediately, you make it sound like it existed for millenia.0 -
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**YAWN**, answered you twice already. Its clear that my answer doesn't matter.iMrApex wrote:That answer doesn't satisfy me, I would prefer a yes or no regarding Portugal. Again, you have not told me what I have refused to answer.
iMrApex, I have already warned you regarding your style of "discussion". This is a second warning - your questions were answered, and your dissatisfaction with the answers does not entitle you to clog up the thread with demand for better answers.
If you continue in this vein, a ban is quite definite, and will be for a minimum of two weeks.
moderately,
Scofflaw0 -
Britain did not "own the land" in the simplistic sense you imply. Had they done so in the colonial manner, you (according to an earlier statement) would consider that wrong.
It's very hard to see what point you're making, other than attempt to justify the colonisation of the West Bank and Occupied Territories through fairly incoherent c&p's of 20th century history.
Britain owned land due to defeat of Ottoman empire after WW1.
Britain were goosed in WW! in 1916, were going to sue for peace.
Civilian liner sank and in steps USA to conflict.
As a reward Britain signed Palestinian mandate.0 -
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RiteofPassage wrote: »Britain owned land due to defeat of Ottoman empire after WW1.
Britain were goosed in WW! in 1916, were going to sue for peace.
Civilian liner sank and in steps USA to conflict.
As a reward Britain signed Palestinian mandate.
What the hell is that about? What has the Lusitania to do with signing the mandate?0 -
No one cared you think? But they did care, they cared enough to oppose it, they fought each other over it, I think the people present at the time did care. I just think the Palestinian side didnt have access to the influence and money as did the side that opposed them.
British mandate only existed after WW1, not even immediately, you make it sound like it existed for millenia.
No one cared about it, they completely disregarded what the treaty stated and both went to war refusing to accept the creation of the two states.
How do I make it sound like it existed for millennia? "It had been part of the British Empire, before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire, before that the Mamluks controlled it"0 -
Pedantically when Britain acquired Palestine they no longer had an empire. The Brits allowed Israel to be created so as to thank the Jewish people for their help in WW10
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You're going off on a tangent, I'll provide another example. Let's say Portugal was partitioned between North and South Portugal. Let's then say North Portugal decided to invade South Portugal. South Portugal repelled the attack and pushed into North Portugal and annexed it.
Would the people of North Portugal have a right to a state?
Yes.0 -
RiteofPassage wrote: »Pedantically when Britain acquired Palestine they no longer had an empire. The Brits allowed Israel to be created so as to thank the Jewish people for their help in WW1
Do please explain.0 -
“There can be no stable and strong Jewish [Northern Ireland]state so long as it has a Jewish [Unionist/Protestant] majority of only 60%.
There were people on this island who held views similar to yours as per in bold here. That ended in tears, and ultimately was a non-runner because, unlike Israel, the imperialist bully boy couldn't persuade his mentor to shamelessly support that position forever. Of course the question of stability or security for the Palestinians doesn't arise. Admit it, Apex, the Palestinians are perceived by your friends as little better than dogs, and peace can be achieved by throwing a bone to the dog.0 -
Do please explain.
The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."0 -
There were people on this island who held views similar to yours as per in bold here. That ended in tears, and ultimately was a non-runner because, unlike Israel, the imperialist bully boy couldn't persuade his mentor to shamelessly support that position forever. Of course the question of stability or security for the Palestinians doesn't arise. Admit it, Apex, the Palestinians are perceived by your friends as little better than dogs, and peace can be achieved by throwing a bone to the dog.
I don't have a problem with having a two state solution though Israel is not keen on that due to the history of the situation. If it does happen I can imagine Palestine being much much smaller than it was in the original partition plan.0 -
The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
Primarily it was signed to thank Jewish lobbyists and bankers for putting pressure on USA to enter war.- objective fact.0 -
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RiteofPassage wrote: »Pedantically when Britain acquired Palestine they no longer had an empire. The Brits allowed Israel to be created so as to thank the Jewish people for their help in WW1
The "Jewish people" as you put it collectively, didn't aid the British cause collectively?The Balfour Declaration (dated 2 November 1917) was a letter from the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Baron Rothschild (Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild), a leader of the British Jewish community, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland.
"His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I started to look up the Balfour Act as until a certain point (The Lusitania being mentioned?) that declaration hadn't been mentioned, it looks like a quote from wiki though.0
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